Liver support

[Dr JIM]

Oh I see bc there is no evidence it DOES NOT WORK use it right, lol!

Sound substance from a fella prancing around waving his arm crying Jim doesn't care about the NIH, peer review research, PUBMED.

But that's the problem most supplement manufacturers have, you folks haven't proven our products DONT WORK, so we claim they are "worth a go", BULLSHIT!

Oh and here is some misapplied "evidence" to support our beliefs for the naysayers like Dr Jim out there.

Speaking about peer reviewed journal citations, why didn't the authors of the Cirrhosis article make similar claims?

You know, yep these supplements should be tried for ANY toxin that may cause hepatic injury.

We don't need anymore proof bc it "worked" in patients with Cirrhosis.

That's your best argument for the use of unproven therapy, "there no evidence it doesn't work". Try to have that approved by some peer review committee, lol!

Sorry fella the onus is on you and your supplement companies to prove such therapies are efficacious bc most BB are not interested in "voodoo medicine".

Incidentally my comment these substances are WORTHLESS was in reference to the thread at hand. Which was "are they needed or beneficial for those using oral AAS"?

Until that data is revealed by supplement manufactures, (don't hold your breath) I consider them WORTHLESS for that purpose!

Finally since you continue to cite a decline in hepatic enzymes as proof of supplement efficacy, I suggest you review how to best utilize these bio-markers bc they ARE often unreliable indicators of "response to therapy" in patients with chronic hepatic disorders.

 

[B Easy]

You have officially "jumped the shark" my friend. Now, you take the easy way out and avoid everything we have addressed thus far, and started back at square one in some atrempt to salvage some dignity. The facts remain that you spew your own personal feelings and dress them up as scientific fact, when the reality is you STILL have produced absolutely zero scientifically verified information to support your claims. Side step all you want, but when its boiled down all we have here is a dude on a forum stating his theories as facts, another dude producing a study that refutes the assertions of the first dude, and then the first dude failing to match his opponent by offering even a single study that supports his own claims. Tell me "doctor", do you get a lot of respect in your field when you make absolute claims without defending them with evidence?

 

[cazper]

 

[Dr JIM]

You have officially "jumped the shark" my friend. Now, you take the easy way out and avoid everything we have addressed thus far, and started back at square one in some atrempt to salvage some dignity. The facts remain that you spew your own personal feelings and dress them up as scientific fact, when the reality is you STILL have produced absolutely zero scientifically verified information to support your claims. Side step all you want, but when its boiled down all we have here is a dude on a forum stating his theories as facts, another dude producing a study that refutes the assertions of the first dude, and then the first dude failing to match his opponent by offering even a single study that supports his own claims. Tell me "doctor", do you get a lot of respect in your field when you make absolute claims without defending them with evidence?

Yea and you are FOS, but you don't believe that either, lol!

 

[CensoredBoardsSuck]

You continue to advance the notion treatment of established disease is the same as disease prevention.

Are you saying prophylactic coronary artery bypass graft surgery won't prevent coronary artery disease?

Dammit! There goes my Nobel Prize. Back to the drawing board, I guess. C'est la vie.

 

[CensoredBoardsSuck]

Now, you take the easy way out and avoid everything we have addressed thus far, and started back at square one in some atrempt to salvage some dignity.

You've missed the point of everything that's been addressed so far - no doubt due to the time spent writing those long, rambling, probably meth-fueled posts without any paragraphs. Not only are 'liver protectors' NOT needed during 17-AA AAS use, but there is NO evidence showing them to be helpful. There isn't even reason to believe they might be helpful. Liver protectors are another bro lore fabrication.

 

[B Easy]

Yea and you are FOS, but you don't believe that either, lol!

Ok when a "doctor" is reduced to this, I'd say its pretty safe to say this conversation has run its course. Everything I wanted to say has been said already, at least once. If anyone else wants to join in now that the heavy lifting is over feel free; any point you make I've already rebuked in one of my previous posts, and frankly your attempt to piggy back into the conversation once its already over is kinda sad.

 

[Dr JIM]

You have officially "jumped the shark" my friend. Now, you take the easy way out and avoid everything we have addressed thus far, and started back at square one in some atrempt to salvage some dignity. The facts remain that you spew your own personal feelings and dress them up as scientific fact, when the reality is you STILL have produced absolutely zero scientifically verified information to support your claims. Side step all you want, but when its boiled down all we have here is a dude on a forum stating his theories as facts, another dude producing a study that refutes the assertions of the first dude, and then the first dude failing to match his opponent by offering even a single study that supports his own claims. Tell me "doctor", do you get a lot of respect in your field when you make absolute claims without defending them with evidence?

I suppose you didn't notice THESE citations that were also "readily available" on Google. Hey but why did your discovery require "ten minutes", when I only needed TWO minutes. Hmm, are you another slow learner or some snake oil salesman for a supplement company!

Oh and please inform others how Liv-52 WAS REMOVED FROM THE MARKET IN 2004 bc it CAUSED HEPATIC INJURY! But that's to be expected when appropriate clinical trials are deemed unecessary as they often are by supplement manufactures!

The last citation reviews the effects of AAS on LFTs of CHILDREN being treated for moderate to severe burns. Why is it NONE were given your snake oil BUNK in spite of LFT changes? Bc medical practice is based on established fact not therapeutic fantasy!

Also note the second citation investigates the use of Liv-52 in patients with Alcoholic Liver Disease, which is a precursor to and the most common cause of cirrhosis bar none!
Of course no improvement was noted in this CONTROLLED TRIAL of patients with ALD, who develop hepatic injury because of the same MOA as AAS, CHOLESTASIS!

Interesting how that Herbal remedy Journal Phytomedicine you cited observed "an improvement" in the nonspecific biochemical markers of cirrhotic patients, yet the results of said therapy did not improve their OUTCOME!

Perhaps studying the "benefits" of Ginger root, Winter grass, Hog hairs, and a pinch of Bromide, alone or in combination shall be the focus of their next study; The Efficacy of Big Easy's Oil in Patients With Ingrown Toenails, lol

 

[Dr JIM]

Ok when a "doctor" is reduced to this, I'd say its pretty safe to say this conversation has run its course. Everything I wanted to say has been said already, at least once. If anyone else wants to join in now that the heavy lifting is over feel free; any point you make I've already rebuked in one of my previous posts, and frankly your attempt to piggy back into the conversation once its already over is kinda sad.

Oh come on now prove your BUNK works bc I just posted the evidence YOU chose to ignore, that shows IT DOES NOT!

Oh an incidentally I placed an order to have a copy of the Phytomedicine journal citation you cited, emailed my way. It seems the UT medical library doesn't carry that "peer reviewed" journal in house, LMAO!

 

[B Easy]

I suppose you didn't notice THESE citations that were also "readily available" on Google. Hey but why did your discovery require "ten minutes", when I only needed TWO minutes. Hmm, are you another slow learner or some snake oil salesman for a supplement company!

Lmao sorry I couldn't get past this part because , again, you seem incapable of even the basic task of reading, let alone thinking critically and communicating well. I said multiple times that it took me "ten seconds", not ten minutes lol
Its an arbitrary number of course, but its important to note your tendency to misunderstand, misinterpret, mislead, and miscommunicate at virtually all levels of dialogue. To begin your response with yet another mistake on your part is hilarious; kind of reminds me of a couple posts ago when you said Tehran was a city in India lol. Your on fire Doc! Anyways, don't get me wrong this was fun for awhile, but arguing with someone like yourself who isn't even able to reference statements accurately is like arguing with a young child. Its just tiresome at this point, and it would require too much effort for me to go through and point out all of the fallacies your making one by one. Ultimately you would just end up continuing to misquote and miscommunicate further , as you have done throughout this thread, and if I'm gonna spend any more time on these boards before ibgo to Hawaii I'm gonna spend it learning something new in different threads. I officially accept victory in this matter, and if in the future you start talking out of your ass some more and giving people dangerous advice that could negatively impact their health, I'll be sure to pull your underwear over your head again. Have a great weekend.

 

[Dr JIM]

YEP your "done" alright, you have proven your a FOS snake oil salesman!

 

[Dr JIM]

Lmao sorry I couldn't get past this part because , again, you seem incapable of even the basic task of reading, let alone thinking critically and communicating well. I said multiple times that it took me "ten seconds", not ten minutes lol
Its an arbitrary number of course, but its important to note your tendency to misunderstand, misinterpret, mislead, and miscommunicate at virtually all levels of dialogue. To begin your response with yet another mistake on your part is hilarious; kind of reminds me of a couple posts ago when you said Tehran was a city in India lol. Your on fire Doc! Anyways, don't get me wrong this was fun for awhile, but arguing with someone like yourself who isn't even able to reference statements accurately is like arguing with a young child. Its just tiresome at this point, and it would require too much effort for me to go through and point out all of the fallacies your making one by one. Ultimately you would just end up continuing to misquote and miscommunicate further , as you have done throughout this thread, and if I'm gonna spend any more time on these boards before ibgo to Hawaii I'm gonna spend it learning something new in different threads. I officially accept victory in this matter, and if in the future you start talking out of your ass some more and giving people dangerous advice that could negatively impact their health, I'll be sure to pull your underwear over your head again. Have a great weekend.

If your referring to that Liv-52 BUNK that was REMOVED FROM THE MARKET bc it CAUSED HEPATIC INJURY, that's one reason why I'm on Meso, to protect members from unscrupulous, self-serving, profiteers like yourself!

By all means return touting this type of BS and I'll be here to prove you wrong AGAIN!

 

[B Easy]

Just as a quick example of how frusterating you are to argue with: the basis of your argument this entire time has been that treatment and prevention are different things, and that just because liv52 can treat chronically ill liver values,,it doesn't mean that it can prevent the development of poor liver values. Fair enough. So what do I find behind your "door number one"? A fucking study that failed to provide evidence that liv52 can be effective at treating people with chronic liver diseases?? Forget that this thread had nothing to do with chronic liver diseases for a second; YOUR whole point was that it isn't beneficial to the prevention of liver hepatoxicity. Your just pulling studies that address what your initial argument contended wasnt relevant to the dialogue in the first place lol. Just , let it go man, or at least find someone whose patience hasn't run out who can continue to walk you through the steps of critical analysis.

 

[Dr JIM]

Just as a quick example of how frusterating you are to argue with: the basis of your argument this entire time has been that treatment and prevention are different things, and that just because liv52 can treat chronically ill liver values,,it doesn't mean that it can prevent the development of poor liver values. Fair enough. So what do I find behind your "door number one"? A fucking study that failed to provide evidence that liv52 can be effective at treating people with chronic liver diseases?? Forget that this thread had nothing to do with chronic liver diseases for a second; YOUR whole point was that it isn't beneficial to the prevention of liver hepatoxicity. Your just pulling studies that address what your initial argument contended wasnt relevant to the dialogue in the first place lol. Just , let it go man, or at least find someone whose patience hasn't run out who can continue to walk you through the steps of critical analysis.

The only critical analysis shysters like you are ever involved with involves green backs, acquired by selling snake oil to unsuspecting and gullible PED users!

 

[B Easy]

that's one reason why I'm on Meso, to protect members from unscrupulous, self-serving, profiteers like yourself!

Oh dear your hitting rock bottom finally lol. "Profiteer"? Haha ya, now resort to your last stich effort and accuse me of being...wait, a profiteer? For what, liv52?? Lol ok now this is getting really good. Ya I've been lurking in the shadows of the forum for the last couple months, just biding my time and waiting for the perfect opportunity to cash in and make a fortune on liv52! Hahahaha

 

[Dr JIM]

Then why don't you rebut the citations I just posted rather than continue to blindly support this unproven JUNK.

 

[B Easy]

Just as a quick example of how frusterating you are to argue with: the basis of your argument this entire time has been that treatment and prevention are different things, and that just because liv52 can treat chronically ill liver values,,it doesn't mean that it can prevent the development of poor liver values. Fair enough. So what do I find behind your "door number one"? A fucking study that failed to provide evidence that liv52 can be effective at treating people with chronic liver diseases?? Forget that this thread had nothing to do with chronic liver diseases for a second; YOUR whole point was that it isn't beneficial to the prevention of liver hepatoxicity. Your just pulling studies that address what your initial argument contended wasnt relevant to the dialogue in the first place lol. Just , let it go man, or at least find someone whose patience hasn't run out who can continue to walk you through the steps of critical analysis.

 

[CensoredBoardsSuck]

I officially accept victory in this matter, and if in the future you start talking out of your ass some more and giving people dangerous advice that could negatively impact their health, I'll be sure to pull your underwear over your head again. Have a great weekend.

Accept victory? For what, writing the longest post without paragraphs? You win that one, no question about it.

As far as proving your case, you've got a long way to go, young fella. And so far, you're losing that argument.

 

[Dr JIM]

Just as a quick example of how frusterating you are to argue with: the basis of your argument this entire time has been that treatment and prevention are different things, and that just because liv52 can treat chronically ill liver values,,it doesn't mean that it can prevent the development of poor liver values. Fair enough. So what do I find behind your "door number one"? A fucking study that failed to provide evidence that liv52 can be effective at treating people with chronic liver diseases?? Forget that this thread had nothing to do with chronic liver diseases for a second; YOUR whole point was that it isn't beneficial to the prevention of liver hepatoxicity. Your just pulling studies that address what your initial argument contended wasnt relevant to the dialogue in the first place lol. Just , let it go man, or at least find someone whose patience hasn't run out who can continue to walk you through the steps of critical analysis.

NO SHIT SHERLOCK, THEN WHY DOES THE "EVIDENCE" YOU HAVE CITED ONLY INCLUDE PATIENTS WITH CLD!

Yet the FACTS are few if any of these supplements have been shown alter THE COURSE of patients with chronic liver disease but what studies do you select to use as proof of efficacy? Patients with CHRONIC LIVER DISEASE! It's a classic apples to oranges argument those with limited medical training use quite often and it's garbage!

Look if you want to help mates with Cirrhosis, Hepatitis, ALD, etc then do so, but to use these studies as justification "liver protectors" aid in hepatic recovery of those using AAS is just pure nonsense.

So next time you suggest BB -A- B or -C- should take this junk, first inquire if they have those ailments LISTED as your proof of efficacy. Otherwise your feeding Meso members a big LIE!

 

[B Easy]

...as I stated several posts ago, I'm still waiting for a single study that proves either a.) Oral aas cycles only produces negligable increases in liver hepatoxicity ( around 2 or 3 beers worth, as you stated earlier lol), or b.) That liv52, NAC, and TUDCA produces zero benefits to negative liver values subsequent from oral aas use. You still haven't produced a single study, and your still losing the argument as a result.