Long term 200mg TRT now having health issues

[PeterBond]

A more comprehensive paper (systematic review and meta-analyses) with regard to endogeneous testosterone levels found no significant effect of a 5 nmol/L increase in testosterone (versus a mean of 15.4 nmol/L) on all-cause mortality or death from cardiovascular disease:

Systematic review and meta-analyses on associations of endogenous testosterone concentration with health outcomes in community-dwelling men | BMJ Open

bmjopen.bmj.com

Regardless, this data has no bearing on TRT target levels.

 

[RebornNez]

For absolute longevity 600 to 800 is probably ideal but while you're young I think you can push the limit and go upto like 1500

 

[Type-IIx]

For absolute longevity 600 to 800 is probably ideal but while you're young I think you can push the limit and go upto like 1500

Paragon of the psychology at work... read the data, DOUBLE it, shave off some nominal value. Healthy!

To add muscle it basically boils down to dosing as high as possible. It's a trade-off between the two; the higher the dose, the better for muscle-building but more harmful for health.

Fundamental, yet so many are of a mindset that the proper balance of supplements/some magic protocol exists. I am a proponent of objective harm weighting, but recognize that for those that haven't even read through Book on Steroids cursorily, they just won't have the fundamentals down on what the real risks actually are.

 

[Theworm]

For absolute longevity 600 to 800 is probably ideal but while you're young I think you can push the limit and go upto like 1500

@PeterBond
Agree with above?

 

[PeterBond]

@PeterBond
Agree with above?

No.

 

[Theworm]

No.

So not 600-800, truly has to be around 500?

 

[Pineapples4Puss]

I guess it's possible that I could be occasionally consuming more of the nicotine mints. Maybe I'm hitting 25-30 of the 4mg mints occasionally and that could be triggering a seizure on them particular occasions?

I know a couple times a month I do have more than 20 accidentally.

Regarding the cardiovascular risks of 200mg TRT do you have any studies which I can read on this? Or case reports? I'm very interested in learning if I'm actually killing myself or not.

The nicotine is a way bigger risk to your cardiovascular health than the 200 mg of trt if you manage everything properly..


when I’m on nicotine my BP shoots sky high. I’m surprised your bp is normal

 

[GreenAmine]

The nicotine is a way bigger risk to your cardiovascular health than the 200 mg of trt if you manage everything properly..


when I’m on nicotine my BP shoots sky high. I’m surprised your bp is normal

He is ingesting a metric shitton of nicotine. On average, a cigarette delivers about 1.5 mg of nicotine. 80/1.5 = 53 cigarettes... per day.

@TownTX is there a reason why you are using this much? This goes beyond a simple nicotine addiction; it seems you are strongly addicted to the lozenges themselves. Have you tried using lozenges with a smaller dose, like 2 mg? If you use the same number per day, that would cut your dose in half.

 

[ludi_janez]

OP abuses the shit out of nicotine and then wonders where his problems came from. Ive seen terrible terrible things in young healthy people from nicotine abuse. Drop that shit as soon as possible. I dont know why you even use it unless you wanna gamble with your life and health.

 

[WOU812]

My urologist who recently retired has prescribed 200 mg/wk of TC or TE ever since he began practicing. Endos and the Internal Med docs always criticized him for that dosing, predicting nothing but bad long term outcomes. He's been treating patients since the early 80's including some of the docs at the institution where he worked and it is one of the top hospitals in the midwest. Never had one problem with a patient linked to T dosing and he was the largest HRT provider at that institution. One of his patients, a good friend just turned 80. He's been on that dosing of TC and ND (for joint pain) for decades. Just had a stress echo done bc he's a runner. Has the aerobic capacity of a fit 50 year old, echo was normal. Both his dad and uncle died in the late 40's from an MI. He even has a Gleason 6 PCa, his docs told him not to change anything. The new urologist that I see now also treats with a total of 200 mg/wk if the patient feels better at that level, he told me yes it puts you at the top end or slightly physiologic but we have not seen anything that would suggest that to be a problem. He's a cutting edge doc/surgeon, very well read in the lit at the same institution. Also works with trans and gender dysphoria patients and T. IMO, control erythocytosis and keep BP low, manage ANG II with an ACEi or ARB, get regular labs and an echo as a baseline and you keep the risk manageable IF you truly feel better in the 800 - 1000 range just before your next inj vs 500. If you feel fine at 500, keep it there. It's about how you feel, not a number. However, if you're at 1000 and still feel like crap, it's not T that is the problem. Just my two cents.

 

[ManK]

Most studies aim at a treatment target of mid-interval levels of 500-800 ng/dL (more older ones also slightly lower, 400 ng/dL, if I'm not mistaking), with by far most patients ending up close to 500 ng/dL. I also think this is probably the wisest level in terms of health.

absolutely agree

 

[PeterBond]

My urologist who recently retired has prescribed 200 mg/wk of TC or TE ever since he began practicing. Endos and the Internal Med docs always criticized him for that dosing, predicting nothing but bad long term outcomes. He's been treating patients since the early 80's including some of the docs at the institution where he worked and it is one of the top hospitals in the midwest. Never had one problem with a patient linked to T dosing and he was the largest HRT provider at that institution. One of his patients, a good friend just turned 80. He's been on that dosing of TC and ND (for joint pain) for decades. Just had a stress echo done bc he's a runner. Has the aerobic capacity of a fit 50 year old, echo was normal. Both his dad and uncle died in the late 40's from an MI. He even has a Gleason 6 PCa, his docs told him not to change anything. The new urologist that I see now also treats with a total of 200 mg/wk if the patient feels better at that level, he told me yes it puts you at the top end or slightly physiologic but we have not seen anything that would suggest that to be a problem. He's a cutting edge doc/surgeon, very well read in the lit at the same institution. Also works with trans and gender dysphoria patients and T. IMO, control erythocytosis and keep BP low, manage ANG II with an ACEi or ARB, get regular labs and an echo as a baseline and you keep the risk manageable IF you truly feel better in the 800 - 1000 range just before your next inj vs 500. If you feel fine at 500, keep it there. It's about how you feel, not a number. However, if you're at 1000 and still feel like crap, it's not T that is the problem. Just my two cents.

"It's about how you feel."

A friend of mine has repeatedly told me he feels great on a gram a week. I'll pass this wisdom on to him.

 

[ManK]

"It's about how you feel."

A friend of mine has repeatedly told me he feels great on a gram a week. I'll pass this wisdom on to him.

ahahahahah

 

[ManK]

i find funny a lot of data that i read here..
Personally with just 2x25 mg of test each week sub cutaneous and 2 x 400 ui of hcg i have total test (verified each 4 weeks) @ 830 ng....
I would like to stay around 650 not more, and i don't know if reduce T or Hcg....

 

[Harley00]

Everyone says there bloods are perfect. And most times are not .
Can you post your labs please. Everything you have.

 

[WOU812]

"It's about how you feel."

A friend of mine has repeatedly told me he feels great on a gram a week. I'll pass this wisdom on to him.

"However, if you're at 1000 and still feel like crap, it's not T that is the problem."

I don't think your friend would qualify as he's well over 1000. Regarding the how one feels and T conc. Ref Carruthers, J Sex Med 2008, also ref some of R Glaser's esp T in women. What I posted was not my wisdom, simply observation and comment. I'm not recommending or suggesting anything to anyone, just sharing info, do whatever with it and feel free to delete it if it doesn't fit the narrative.

 

[PeterBond]

"However, if you're at 1000 and still feel like crap, it's not T that is the problem."

I don't think your friend would qualify as he's well over 1000. Regarding the how one feels and T conc. Ref Carruthers, J Sex Med 2008, also ref some of R Glaser's esp T in women. What I posted was not my wisdom, simply observation and comment. I'm not recommending or suggesting anything to anyone, just sharing info, do whatever with it and feel free to delete it if it doesn't fit the narrative.

But 1000 is a number, and you just said it's not about a number but about how you feel?

 

[null88]

are you using pharma grade test?

 

[Pantera]

@PeterBond This may be an unanswerable question - at least in quantitative sense - but how much muscle can be maintained (not gained, just maintained) on a TRT dose that puts mid-level TT measurents at 500 ng/dL? Would this be enough to maintain all of ones muscle assuming they're at the limits of their genetic potential?

 

[Gbro]

But 1000 is a number, and you just said it's not about a number but about how you feel?

I see what you did there