Loss of Gains - no PCT and gyno during cycle

[kent2511]

Hello,

I've been on an Anadrol 50 mg/daily, Sustanon 250, Durabolin 250 stack for 12 weeks but without any estrogen blockers. Unlike previous cycles my first cycle or two, my gains have been less and my muscle mass is not hard or firm like in the past. My appetite has been less (the Anadrol caused horrible heartburn on occasion), and there has been evidence of mild to moderate gyno during the cycle. Is the main mistake that I made not to have taken any estrogen blockers during my cycle? I also have not had a PCT program between cycles, and I know that's important after the fact since it allows your body to adapt back to a life without the strong hormones it was on for the previous 12 weeks.

Any advice would be most welcome. Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[cdoubleu]

I think you have answered your own question. You know what your problem is, but what was your reasoning for no ai or pct?

Also how long have you given yourself between cycles

 

[kent2511]

Inexperience. Reliance on a friend who thought he knew best. Before starting the current one, I had gone 6 months without taking anything. Huge loss of mass. This time I have Clomid/Nolva but am unsure of exactly when to begin taking them with respect to the "last day of the cycle". I have Arimidex (Anastrozole) for any new cycle that I do after waiting at least 3 months. Does this sound about right?

 

[nitrous]

If you're doing long ester stuff like deca I would start my PCT 2 weeks after my last shot. This gives your body a chance for levels to drop. It won't recover while your levels are still elevated as there is no reason for your body to produce more since hormone levels are high so running a pct before that would be useless. The except to that rule is if you were to run HCG. If so then you could run it during that period of time as HCG will directly stimulate your testes to start working. Arimidex I would generally run on cycle and during PCT. On cycle to help prevent gyno and post cycle to do the same and help with recovering.

 

[RodgerThat]

If you're doing long ester stuff like deca I would start my PCT 2 weeks after my last shot. This gives your body a chance for levels to drop. It won't recover while your levels are still elevated as there is no reason for your body to produce more since hormone levels are high so running a pct before that would be useless. The except to that rule is if you were to run HCG. If so then you could run it during that period of time as HCG will directly stimulate your testes to start working. Arimidex I would generally run on cycle and during PCT. On cycle to help prevent gyno and post cycle to do the same and help with recovering.

Please do a bit of reading before giving advice.

5 half life's after your last pin start your pct (test e half life 4 days so 20 days after).

Pct should look like this
Clomid 50/50/50/25
Nolva 40/20/20/20/10

AI should only be run ON cycle do not use it during pct! Adex .25 eod or aromisin 12.5mg eod as starting points then adjust accordingly from blood work (which I'm assuming you've never done and 100% should start doing)

 

[cdoubleu]

Inexperience. Reliance on a friend who thought he knew best. Before starting the current one, I had gone 6 months without taking anything. Huge loss of mass. This time I have Clomid/Nolva but am unsure of exactly when to begin taking them with respect to the "last day of the cycle". I have Arimidex (Anastrozole) for any new cycle that I do after waiting at least 3 months. Does this sound about right?

You can gain experience here for sure...do plenty of research before diving in again.

There are a lot of knowledgeable guys here. Sift through the advice you get and research that advice. Reason I say that is because you dont want to run into the same situation you did with your friend and do everything based on what someone tells ya.

 

[nitrous]

Please do a bit of reading before giving advice.

5 half life's after your last pin start your pct (test e half life 4 days so 20 days after).

Pct should look like this
Clomid 50/50/50/25
Nolva 40/20/20/20/10

AI should only be run ON cycle do not use it during pct! Adex .25 eod or aromisin 12.5mg eod as starting points then adjust accordingly from blood work (which I'm assuming you've never done and 100% should start doing)

If he is having gyno issues wouldn't an AI help a bit in the early parts of PCT especially if gyno symptoms are still present? The 5 half life's later to start PCT, wouldn't that vary depending on their dosage? Running 500mg of test e would clear faster than running 1500mg of test e?

Obviously blood work is the best option as you could see once everything has dropped below normal levels to start PCT and monitor e2 levels to decide if an AI is necessary or not. It's unfortunate blood work isn't as accessible for some as it is for others with some living in remote locations or countries where blood work isn't provided without a medical concern.

 

[RodgerThat]

You can always get pre or post bloods regardless where you live. The AI during pct will not help it will just crash him. Nolva will help with the gyno. Your right 1500mg or 500mg will yield different results after 5 half lives but what's cool is both of which you'll be in a recovery range, also he isn't doing 1500mg of test so not really relevant. If you are doing a low dose or trt dose ya two weeks will work but when you are going into above Normal ranges 5 half lives would be best to follow.

 

[kent2511]

You guys are great. I have done a fair amount of reading, so some of what I'm asking is meant to get confirmation from guys who understand my situation and can add a little extra detail. Depending on what forums you read, you can often get conflicting advice, so it's good to try to confirm what it is that you're reading.

I have been on Sustanon 250 (twice a week) and not Test E. Would that matter then as far as when I should begin running my PCT? My last pin will be tomorrow or 12/1. Based on what you are saying, I should begin my PCT of Clomid/Nolva roughly starting 12/20 and continue it for 4-6 weeks? As you've written these, what time periods are these for?

clomid 50/50/50/25
nolva 40/20/20/20/10

I have Anastrozole ready for my next stack (12.5 or 25 mg), a stack that I really haven't decided on yet since I do not know where I stand. Last Fall I was on Winny, Sustanon 250, and Durablin 250, and it worked great. And that was without running Anastrozole, but I think my gyno issues have caught up with me and have been a huge limiting factor.

With regard to having blood work done, I really do not know how I should do that by going to a normal, garden-variety internist. I don't want anyone to know that I've been doing this, and running blood work would just make it known to him. Is there a more private way of getting blood work done?

Again, thanks for all of your useful comments.

 

[freestanding]

You guys are great. I have done a fair amount of reading, so some of what I'm asking is meant to get confirmation from guys who understand my situation and can add a little extra detail. Depending on what forums you read, you can often get conflicting advice, so it's good to try to confirm what it is that you're reading.

I have been on Sustanon 250 (twice a week) and not Test E. Would that matter then as far as when I should begin running my PCT? My last pin will be tomorrow or 12/1. Based on what you are saying, I should begin my PCT of Clomid/Nolva roughly starting 12/20 and continue it for 4-6 weeks? As you've written these, what time periods are these for?

clomid 50/50/50/25
nolva 40/20/20/20/10

I have Anastrozole ready for my next stack (12.5 or 25 mg), a stack that I really haven't decided on yet since I do not know where I stand. Last Fall I was on Winny, Sustanon 250, and Durablin 250, and it worked great. And that was without running Anastrozole, but I think my gyno issues have caught up with me and have been a huge limiting factor.

With regard to having blood work done, I really do not know how I should do that by going to a normal, garden-variety internist. I don't want anyone to know that I've been doing this, and running blood work would just make it known to him. Is there a more private way of getting blood work done?

Again, thanks for all of your useful comments.

Go to the lab testing forum section. Burr wrote an awesome Sticky on blood work an where an how to aquire them. Check it out, its a great section

 

[cdoubleu]

Those start times for pct should be good as there are long esters in sust 250.

If you feel you have gyno symptoms that are developing quickly you could start nolva right now to try to combat that. If they are kind of at a stand still and you only have a limited amount of nolva save it for your pct. Thats a tough one though because the sooner you get on a serm the better chance you have at getting rid of your gyno, depending on how long you have had it.

Pct looks good....if you wanted to bump clomid to 100mg/day in the first week you could since you have never run a pct before.
Those numbers that have been laid out for you (40/20/20/20) are mg/day in each week
ie.
Week 1:40
Week 2:20
Week 3:20. And so on

If you have enough nolva a recommended treatment for gyno is to take 40mg/day in the first week and then 20/day until symptoms are gone.
Using an ai now could help you now in the weeks leading to pct but I wouldnt want to make any recommendations towards that if you dont know what your estrogen levels are at.

Blood tests may work privately dependly on where you live. Where im from there is no such thing, everything needs to be ordered by a doctor. If you are in the same situation and are very concerned about being found you at the very least should go have blood tests done about 4 weeks after you complete pct. This will give enough time for you to know how your levels are doing without the aid of any serms.

Good luck

 

[RodgerThat]

Ya your pct looks on point to me bud go with that. For your next stack start with aromisin 12.5 eod to start with and go from there.

 

[kent2511]

Ok. Thanks Rodger That for the info. Aromisin better than Anastrozole then? Think I already bought Anastrozole. What is meant by EOD? Again, many thanks.

 

[RodgerThat]

I prefer adex, I'm estro sensitive so I go .5 EOD (every other day) but if not sensitive I would start at .25 eod (every other day)

 

[kent2511]

To be clear, one does not immediately start taking clomid in the days following the last pin (sustanon 250, durabolin 250) to give the body a period to adjust? no doubt my hormones are all out of whack, so waiting 4 half lives (which is ~20 days) is the time that i would start taking clomid?

with respect to nolva, i already have gyno. i feel the lumps in my breasts (nipples) and they sag just a little bit. i'd describe it as a mild to perhaps moderate case of gyno but nothing too noticeable to someone seeing me with my shirt off. should i also begin 20 days afterwards with the nolva or launch right into it since i apparently have been suffering from gyno through my cycle?

thanks in advance.

 

[RodgerThat]

Wait the 20 days for clomid and I would start fighting that gyno right away with nolva at 20mg Ed. The longer you wait to treat your gyno the more chance it has to become fibrous and once it has become fibrous you need surgery to remove it.

 

[kent2511]

You're amazing, RodgerThat. Thx. I owe you big time. I think that it made already be fibrous but it's not so hard yet that it may not go away. It certainly has not progressed much, but I can see that the one nipple is a bit swollen or enlarged. Hope the Nolva will set me straight.