Mammalian cell derived Serostim vs E-Coli cell derived Generics

[bighunanballs]

I wanted to bring this up for debate here since i first heard this theory from a fella much smarter than myself. Would love to here @Type-IIx thoughts on this matter.

Their is a current Generics vs Serostim bioavailability theory I recently heard. The theory as best as i can summarize, describes the method by which Serostim and Generics are derived... Serostim is derived from Mammalian cells whereas Generics are derived from E-coli cells. Even though they are both 191aa and have the same molecular weight, the theory is that the amino acid chain/coil shape differs slightly between the two "seemingly" indistinguishable molecules. The difference may also be in the structure that is not able to be distinguished in typical @janoshik HPLC/MS testing. It has also been theorized that the generics cause fast rHGH Antibody formation compared to Sero's. Thus, it is recommended to cycle off Generics. Adding rHGH Antibody test to lab-work due to this issue is a good idea for generics users. Some may see the need to continually titrate up their generics dosing since there is something about the E-Coli derived 191aa molecule that causes GH antibody production much faster and/or in greater instance than mammalian derived Serostim. Would love to get different thoughts on this topic! this is a little more in-depth conversation than the typical Generics vs Pharma debate.

 

[songsofpyramids]

I wanted to bring this up for debate here since i first heard this theory from a fella much smarter than myself. Would love to here @Type-IIx thoughts on this matter.

Their is a current Generics vs Serostim bioavailability theory I recently heard. The theory as best as i can summarize, describes the method by which Serostim and Generics are derived... Serostim is derived from Mammalian cells whereas Generics are derived from E-coli cells. Even though they are both 191aa and have the same molecular weight, the theory is that the amino acid chain/coil shape differs slightly between the two "seemingly" indistinguishable molecules. The difference may also be in the structure that is not able to be distinguished in typical @janoshik HPLC/MS testing. It has also been theorized that the generics cause fast rHGH Antibody formation compared to Sero's. Thus, it is recommended to cycle off Generics. Adding rHGH Antibody test to lab-work due to this issue is a good idea for generics users. Some may see the need to continually titrate up their generics dosing since there is something about the E-Coli derived 191aa molecule that causes GH antibody production much faster and/or in greater instance than mammalian derived Serostim. Would love to get different thoughts on this topic! this is a little more in-depth conversation than the typical Generics vs Pharma debate.

I might be far far off base here, I am no expert on this crap, but I was under the impression that cell cultures were not even necessary anymore as they are now made via Solid-Phase Peptide Synthesis. Interesting topic though, following to see what smarter people than I say.

 

[Sector]

Very interesting information and theories. Could lead to a good discussion. Unfortunately this a bit out of my realm of expertise but I'll be following if any medical professionals/chemists do chime in

 

[bighunanballs]

Found a quote made by type-IIx in another thread

There may be an association between GH antibodies (i.e., antigenicity) with mammalian cell-derived rhGH versus E. coli (e.g., Iranian Norditropin saw 8.5% antigenicity versus 1.2-2.8% for E. coli-produced Somatropin). Yet, there was no clinical relevance (no decrement in GH response [IGF-I increase] nor height velocity).

There may be some minor influence of excipients used (e.g., some rhGH formulations may use mannitol which is a diuretic) on body composition. Genotropin uses meta cresol primarily. Serono Serostim sucrose & phosphoric acid.

Anyway, with all rhGH formulations there is a "stalling" after some time (due to diminished GH response, likely due predominantly to GHBP/IGFBP dynamics, diminished phosphorylation of downstream elements to the GHR, etc.)

I think the perceived differences by formulation are largely modulated by time * dose and by nutritional and training influences, other drugs.

 

[bighunanballs]

I believe @janoshik has chimed in on this as well. if i recall his view is that they are the same since the are the same molecule and same mol weight.

 

[AlexDavis43]

Found a quote made by type-IIx in another thread

I believe @janoshik has chimed in on this as well. if i recall his view is that they are the same since the are the same molecule and same mol weight.

View attachment 283245

This is my opinion as well. Many additives and all that stuff may differ between pharma and UGL (beyond purity and dimer); I don't doubt that... just don't think it matters that much.

 

[karambit]

Found a quote made by type-IIx in another thread

Thanks for sharing.