Maximally Synergistic Stacks

[mr.redpill]

I've seen @Type-IIx and others shed light on *synergy in regard to what compounds should be paired- as well as what compounds are incompatible/redundant via pairing.

From my findings so far on MESO- it would appear that when most think of a "synergistic cycle", it involves the golden trifecta- i.e.; one testosterone derivative/one DHT derivative/one 19-nor.

Yet, this seemingly straightforward & dependable structure appears to be misleading in the sense that it doesn't provide enough context in terms of the actual compound selection itself.

For example- although it fits the aforementioned rule, I've never heard of someone running a dbol/trestolone/winstrol cycle.
Or maybe that is common cycle- fuck if I know?
Another example on the contrary is a test/primo/mast cycle- which doesn’t fit the aforementioned rule, but yet seems to be an effective/popular cycle.
Or maybe it’s not an effective cycle- again, fuck if I know.
Point is, which 3 compounds actually have the most synergy outside of the standard bro-lure, like from an actual scientific standpoint? Is the literature clear on this?...For anyone who…literatures(?)

While obviously I’d like to open up a discussion on this for those who are knowledgeable, I have to admit that the main reason why I made this thread is of a more selfish nature…

…Once I’m a little deeper into my Accutane treatment, I'll be running my 3rd cycle- during which I'm prepared to venture beyond my standard test-only regimen and add two additional anabolics in moderate-low doses.

...And in designing said cycle, I appear to be suffering from an extreme fucking case of paralysis by analysis.

…Like fuck, I think I’ve re-done this cycle design 10x over by now…

I've been cruising on 125mg of cyp for >15weeks now, which will be 20-25 weeks by the time I start this next cycle. I'd like to think that all this time "off" will equate to a greater response, and I might even be able to return to my standard test-only regimen and add 8-10lbs(projected from the pattern of my past cycles). Yet, I want to add much more than that- so as stated previously I'd like to add two compounds that are more tissue selective(in moderate-low doses), while keeping my test @ </=500mg per week and keeping total AAS </=1000mg per week.

A few reasons for the low doses, aside from normal harm reduction reasons.

1. I want to make sure to the best of my abilities that I’m not adding to the hepatotoxic effects of the Accutane, as I’ll likely stay on it until I reach my cumulative dose- so I would like to keep orals to a min.

2. I'm a hyper-responder to AAS, from what I'm told.

(Image inserted below is before/after my first 2 cycles)


•Current Stats
-25yo, 190lbs, 5'6, 15%BF(Will cut down to <12% before starting cycle- Currently an out of shape little bitch)
•Previous Cycles
- 16 Weeks x 350 Test E {+21lbs LM}
- 20 Weeks x 500 Test C {+14lbs LM}

This will be a lean bulking cycle…

…I have nearly every compound on hand...
Test C
Test E
Test P
Test PH
Deca
Npp
Eq
Tren A
Mast P
Mast E
Dbol
Anavar
Winstrol
Tbol
Anadrol

Where the analysis paralysis comes into play is I have too many compounds to choose from and I want to make sure I’m selecting the most synergistic compounds to stack on top of my test- I know quite well that I'm being anal about this(Relax @TrenTrenTren ) because I believe I lean slightly towards neuroticism. But that’s another thread.

I have it narrowed down to 4 different cycles-
What would be the best choice from a compound selection standpoint for my goals?
Which stack makes more sense synergistically?
What needs to be changed?

 

[TrenTrenTren]

I've seen @Type-IIx and others shed light on *synergy in regard to what compounds should be paired- as well as what compounds are incompatible/redundant via pairing.

From my findings so far on MESO- it would appear that when most think of a "synergistic cycle", it involves the golden trifecta- i.e.; one testosterone derivative/one DHT derivative/one 19-nor.

Yet, this seemingly straightforward & dependable structure appears to be misleading in the sense that it doesn't provide enough context in terms of the actual compound selection itself.

For example- although it fits the aforementioned rule, I've never heard of someone running a dbol/trestolone/winstrol cycle.
Or maybe that is common cycle- fuck if I know?
Another example on the contrary is a test/primo/mast cycle- which doesn’t fit the aforementioned rule, but yet seems to be an effective/popular cycle.
Or maybe it’s not an effective cycle- again, fuck if I know.
Point is, which 3 compounds actually have the most synergy outside of the standard bro-lure, like from an actual scientific standpoint? Is the literature clear on this?...For anyone who…literatures(?)

While obviously I’d like to open up a discussion on this for those who are knowledgeable, I have to admit that the main reason why I made this thread is of a more selfish nature…

…Once I’m a little deeper into my Accutane treatment, I'll be running my 3rd cycle- during which I'm prepared to venture beyond my standard test-only regimen and add two additional anabolics in moderate-low doses.

...And in designing said cycle, I appear to be suffering from an extreme fucking case of paralysis by analysis.

…Like fuck, I think I’ve re-done this cycle design 10x over by now…

I've been cruising on 125mg of cyp for >15weeks now, which will be 20-25 weeks by the time I start this next cycle. I'd like to think that all this time "off" will equate to a greater response, and I might even be able to return to my standard test-only regimen and add 8-10lbs(projected from the pattern of my past cycles). Yet, I want to add much more than that- so as stated previously I'd like to add two compounds that are more tissue selective(in moderate-low doses), while keeping my test @ </=500mg per week and keeping total AAS </=1000mg per week.

A few reasons for the low doses, aside from normal harm reduction reasons.

1. I want to make sure to the best of my abilities that I’m not adding to the hepatotoxic effects of the Accutane, as I’ll likely stay on it until I reach my cumulative dose- so I would like to keep orals to a min.

2. I'm a hyper-responder to AAS, from what I'm told.

(Image inserted below is before/after my first 2 cycles)
View attachment 176066

•Current Stats
-25yo, 190lbs, 5'6, 15%BF(Will cut down to <12% before starting cycle- Currently an out of shape little bitch)
•Previous Cycles
- 16 Weeks x 350 Test E {+21lbs LM}
- 20 Weeks x 500 Test C {+14lbs LM}

This will be a lean bulking cycle…

…I have nearly every compound on hand...
Test C
Test E
Test P
Test PH
Deca
Npp
Eq
Tren A
Mast P
Mast E
Dbol
Anavar
Winstrol
Tbol
Anadrol

Where the analysis paralysis comes into play is I have too many compounds to choose from and I want to make sure I’m selecting the most synergistic compounds to stack on top of my test- I know quite well that I'm being anal about this(Relax @TrenTrenTren ) because I believe I lean slightly towards neuroticism. But that’s another thread.

I have it narrowed down to 4 different cycles-
What would be the best choice from a compound selection standpoint for my goals?
Which stack makes more sense synergistically?
What needs to be changed?
View attachment 176067View attachment 176068
View attachment 176069View attachment 176070

Did you say "anal" somewhere in this post???

 

[Leg_locker]

Why not stick to injectibles only while running the accutane. Those orals are amongst the most hepa toxic.

If you are sticking to a 12 week cycle bold and deca wouldn't be a good idea as youd be cycling off pretty much just as they reach peak concentrations

Since you don't have experience with how your body will react to dht/19 nor sticking to short esters would be ideal for the faster clearance times incase you start losing your hair rapidly or lactating

that being said if your set on 3 compounds run something like;
Test p/NPP/mast p
That hits the "golden trifecta"

or a super soild bulking cycle would be
Test p 400mg/wk
npp 400mg/wk
Save the dht's for the next cycle or throw in anavar last 4-6 weeks

 

[lordbenns0n]

All AAS are almost equal in terms of muscle protein accreation. You have to choose what else they do!

Need something for soft tissue? Add some nandrolone.
need something for the glucocorticoid receptor? Add tren.

the most effective cycle is the one with the least side effects and allows you to eat. If you put orals in that fuck up your stomach and you cant eat properly, good luck with growing.

 

[Rido]

Why dont you stick to the same amount as cycle 2 since you still had great gains on it?

Could always just run 400 test, 300 Deca.

Mast will always be the synergy in my head for a 19nor... but idk if you wanna go down that route with your acne issues.

 

[mr.redpill]

Why not stick to injectibles only while running the accutane. Those orals are amongst the most hepa toxic.

If you are sticking to a 12 week cycle bold and deca wouldn't be a good idea as youd be cycling off pretty much just as they reach peak concentrations

Since you don't have experience with how your body will react to dht/19 nor sticking to short esters would be ideal for the faster clearance times incase you start losing your hair rapidly or lactating

that being said if your set on 3 compounds run something like;
Test p/NPP/mast p
That hits the "golden trifecta"

or a super soild bulking cycle would be
Test p 400mg/wk
npp 400mg/wk
Save the dht's for the next cycle or throw in anavar last 4-6 weeks

Because it saves on inj volume- I was running out of real estate on my ass(on ED trt) before I switched to subq. But saying that out loud now, it sounds like a stupid ass reason- if liver tox is a concern for me then you're right I should probably put all the orals on the back burner...

With the Test/npp/mast- I have test phenyl and nand phenyl which I think would be fine injecting EOD right? But how about the mast prop? That would require ED injections no?

And in regards to the 400/400 test/npp cycle. People swear that a 1:1 will Hiroshima your dick function- do you have personal experience w running a 1:1?

 

[Rido]

Because it saves on inj volume- I was running out of real estate on my ass(on ED trt) before I switched to subq. But saying that out loud now, it sounds like a stupid ass reason- if liver tox is a concern for me then you're right I should probably put all the orals on the back burner...

With the Test/npp/mast- I have test phenyl and nand phenyl which I think would be fine injecting EOD right? But how about the mast prop? That would require ED injections no?

And in regards to the 400/400 test/npp cycle. People swear that a 1:1 will Hiroshima your dick function- do you have personal experience w running a 1:1?

I did 1:1:1 last cycle and it was completely fine.

Test U/test C/ mast E/ npp. Worst thing was feeling sad on 400mg of nandrolone.

 

[mr.redpill]

Why dont you stick to the same amount as cycle 2 since you still had great gains on it?

Could always just run 400 test, 300 Deca.

Mast will always be the synergy in my head for a 19nor... but idk if you wanna go down that route with your acne issues.

Because on my 2nd cycle- I only gained a little more than 60% of what I gained on my first cycle(And that was using 150mg more test, for several weeks longer). If that's any indication I think I'll have an even lesser response on my 3rd cycle if I stick to the same structure. Sorta like my body has gotten use to it? If that makes sense? Or maybe that doesn't make sense and I'm just talking out of my ass.

See that's the thing because I've heard some say that they get blasted with acne from 19's and not from DHT's. And then I hear others say that they can blast tren/deca w/o skin issues but it's the DHT's that fuck them up.
...
Acne formation in response to gear actually seems to be the most individualized side affect, aside from E2 fluctuation, BP, and all else that is relevant. So I really am just playing Russian roulette either way no?

But I plan on being dryer than betty white before blasting again so hopefully I can push my acne concerns to the back of my mind? Or is that foolish?

 

[Rido]

Because on my 2nd cycle- I only gained a little more than 60% of what I gained on my first cycle(And that was using 150mg more test, for several weeks longer). If that's any indication I think I'll have an even lesser response on my 3rd cycle if I stick to the same structure. Sorta like my body has gotten use to it? If that makes sense? Or maybe that doesn't make sense and I'm just talking out of my ass.

See that's the thing because I've heard some say that they get blasted with acne from 19's and not from DHT's. And then I hear others say that they can blast tren/deca w/o skin issues but it's the DHT's that fuck them up.
...
Acne formation in response to gear actually seems to be the most individualized side affect, aside from E2 fluctuation, BP, and all else that is relevant. So I really am just playing Russian roulette either way no?

But I plan on being dryer than betty white before blasting again so hopefully I can push my acne concerns to the back of my mind? Or is that foolish?

I guess I need to ask. after the cycle. what did your weight return back to?

what is your baseline weight since you arent on a PCT?


Are you calculating water weight gained as part of your size gain from a cycle?

 

[mr.redpill]

I guess I need to ask. after the cycle. what did your weight return back to?

what is your baseline weight since you arent on a PCT?


Are you calculating water weight gained as part of your size gain from a cycle?

After the 2nd cycle I maintained that weight easily on trt, for 4 months.

UNTIL I started my 3rd cycle of test which is when the acne started to develop...I pulled the plug on that cycle at 4 weeks because of it. That's when my gains started to fall off because my training/nutrition went to shit. I lost around 20lbs since then. Sitting at 190 right now.

No I didn't count water weight. I have a handheld Omron and was using the InBody machine at my gym. During those first 2 cycles that I completed, I put on around 35lbs of LM and lost significant fat mass aswell(15-20lbs). I was 210 @ 10% BF in the images in my post.

 

[Rido]

After the 2nd cycle I maintained that weight easily on trt, for 4 months.

UNTIL I started my 3rd cycle of test which is when the acne started to develop...I pulled the plug on that cycle at 4 weeks because of it. That's when my gains started to fall off because my training/nutrition went to shit. I lost around 20lbs since then. Sitting at 190 right now.

No I didn't count water weight. I have a handheld Omron and was using the InBody machine at my gym. During those first 2 cycles that I completed, I put on around 35lbs of LM and lost significant fat mass aswell(15-20lbs). I was 210 @ 10% BF in the images in my post.

going back to your original question. my input toward your cycle
Now Remember, I am nearly as new as you, but I like the idea of running multiple compounds at a low to moderate dose at a tolerable range than blasting higher amounts.


This is what I would suggest

Either your option 1. Leave anadrol as a finisher instead of a starter/finisher.


or this cycle below. This will give you time for masteron to saturate and get an idea of how it feels. I like increasing anabolics over time. I personally like to leave test alone since I don't worry about "Do I need an AI" type of discussion.

Test C 300 or 400, mast E 200 for 1-12 weeks.
NPP 300 weeks 5-12

With whatever route you choose. start a log and let us know how it goes! Good luck with it!



My Rant for body analysis. I am a big dexa person btw, I like numbers.

Omron is terrible
AAS also skews the inbody/Dexa scans. the water weight on the inbody doesnt include the glycogen water in the muscle properly trust me. I know.

Best way to evaluate size gain is by being on the same AAS dose for both scans(and allowing time for levels to normalize. typically 1.5 months after a cycle).

You do not lose 20 lbs of muscle that easily. I am sure it was just plenty of water weight.

REGARDLESS of my opinion on the water weight gains. if you truly believe that you gained mass on the cycle, you can keep going on it and just add a little bit of extra AAS. Especially for the amount of that muscle. You arent going to get 10 lbs of mass per cycle unless its the first.


Shit I am on the 5th week of my 3rd cycle planning to run for 12-14 weeks. I would be stoked if I ended up with an 8 lb gains(comparing from previous dry weight)


Side Rant: I dont know how people let their training/nutrition go to shit on TRT cruises.

 

[connoristiny]

All AAS are almost equal in terms of muscle protein accreation. You have to choose what else they do!

Need something for soft tissue? Add some nandrolone.
need something for the glucocorticoid receptor? Add tren.

the most effective cycle is the one with the least side effects and allows you to eat. If you put orals in that fuck up your stomach and you cant eat properly, good luck with growing.

yeah honestly I have seen best results with moderate-high test and moderate-low primo

 

[AlwaysHungry]

Don't fall into the trap to find what cycle is more effective or on what you will gain the most tissue.

What's matters is totals.
Your previous cycle was 500mg of X steroid.
If you up the amount of steroid, you will gain more plain and simple.
Either deca test tren equi doesn't matter , what matter the most is the total milligrams.

I would just do a simple
500/500 test deca along with drol
Or equi in place of deca
Or test masteron

 

[narta]

What's matters is totals.
Your previous cycle was 500mg of X steroid.
If you up the amount of steroid, you will gain more plain and simple.
Either deca test tren equi doesn't matter , what matter the most is the total milligrams.

That's terrible advice.

If that was the case, by cycle #15 in someone's lifetime, he should be using upwards of 5gr in order to gain any kind of muscle.

Biology doesn't work like brosience wants it to work.

 

[Type-IIx]

Synergy (greater than additive combinations, 1 + 1 > 2) between drug classes & compounds is something I want to eventually write a sort of thesis about. It's clear that AAS dose vs. ΔLBM is not subject to a sigmoidal S-curve, meaning that AR-mediated effects are not the solitary determinant of AAS effects.

The drug classes are not grouped in practice as 19-nor/testosterone/DHTs. Rather, with respect to biological effects and functional properties that combine greater than additively, the drug classes are best grouped by their structural features and distinctive metabolisms (e.g., androsta-1,4-diene-3-ones vs. androst-4-ene-3-ones vs. androst-1-ene-3-ones, etc.).

Synergy relies on how drugs modulate: glucocorticoids, IGF-I activity (e.g., whether systemically for total-body mitogenic & myogenic effects, or by increasing intramuscular satellite cell responsiveness to IGF-I for tissue-selectivity), estrogens, strength by nongenomic mechanisms, anticatabolic processes, etc.

Indeed, synergy between compounds does more than merely permit total dose reduction; it results in a markedly different physique. I think few would actually attempt to argue that a 1.5 g testosterone blast yields the same physique as a 600 mg test/500 mg tren/400 mg mast blast (or even after adjusting for potency to activate AR, that the same holds true). TMT is a synergistic combination. I can happily illustrate how & why, and this has nothing to do with whether the three drugs are "19-nor/test/DHTs." In fact, I think the broscience model was almost certainly derived inductively, just by working backwards from the case of TMT, as it offers such clear synergy. Such is the depth of analysis that characterizes the bulk of common wisdom in the steroidverse. Anyhow, there are countless synergistic combinations that rely on combinations of different drug properties.

 

[finroid]

Skip hepatoxic orals when using hepatoxic medication. No reason to risk it. Also the trifecta of broscience is pretty much as Type-IIx explained, a broscientific model for making dum-dums able to understand benefits of stacking better.

Tren stacks nicely with everything. Do that. Test+Tren+Boldenone would be me if I had to choose. Enough Test to cover the suppression, then loads of Tren to get the real gains and Boldenone to make you a bottomless pit of food

 

[TrenTrenTren]

Synergy (greater than additive combinations, 1 + 1 > 2) between drug classes & compounds is something I want to eventually write a sort of thesis about. It's clear that AAS dose vs. ΔLBM is not subject to a sigmoidal S-curve, meaning that AR-mediated effects are not the solitary determinant of AAS effects.

The drug classes are not grouped in practice as 19-nor/testosterone/DHTs. Rather, with respect to biological effects and functional properties that combine greater than additively, the drug classes are best grouped by their structural features and distinctive metabolisms (e.g., androsta-1,4-diene-3-ones vs. androst-4-ene-3-ones vs. androst-1-ene-3-ones, etc.).

Synergy relies on how drugs modulate: glucocorticoids, IGF-I activity (e.g., whether systemically for total-body mitogenic & myogenic effects, or by increasing intramuscular satellite cell responsiveness to IGF-I for tissue-selectivity), estrogens, strength by nongenomic mechanisms, anticatabolic processes, etc.

Indeed, synergy between compounds does more than merely permit total dose reduction; it results in a markedly different physique. I think few would actually attempt to argue that a 1.5 g testosterone blast yields the same physique as a 600 mg test/500 mg tren/400 mg mast blast (or even after adjusting for potency to activate AR, that the same holds true). TMT is a synergistic combination. I can happily illustrate how & why, and this has nothing to do with whether the three drugs are "19-nor/test/DHTs." In fact, I think the broscience model was almost certainly derived inductively, just by working backwards from the case of TMT, as it offers such clear synergy. Such is the depth of analysis that characterizes the bulk of common wisdom in the steroidverse. Anyhow, there are countless synergistic combinations that rely on combinations of different drug properties.

Thanks brother. Love your insight.

 

[Rido]

Skip hepatoxic orals when using hepatoxic medication. No reason to risk it. Also the trifecta of broscience is pretty much as Type-IIx explained, a broscientific model for making dum-dums able to understand benefits of stacking better.

Tren stacks nicely with everything. Do that. Test+Tren+Boldenone would be me if I had to choose. Enough Test to cover the suppression, then loads of Tren to get the real gains and Boldenone to make you a bottomless pit of food

skip hepatoxic medication but advising on tren?

 

[finroid]

skip hepatoxic medication but advising on tren?

I believe I said to skip hepatoxic oral AAS, not medication. Do you have something to share about tren, preferably with some sources?

 

[Rido]

https://journals.lww.com/ajg/Abstract/2019/10001/2390_Trenbolone_Induced_Liver_Injury.2391.aspx?casa_token=7eW1NN6dq9cAAAAA:gp08Q8sSEuFG-JKg3VyISD3gkfK603_Tn7GYBIttrkaNlKpzPjr1Vzmz0KcDYU1KxXHXOYQE53MInChd_DZL8wCB

Trenbolone Acetate Use Causing Acute Hepatitis: 780 : Official journal of the American College of Gastroenterology | ACG

An abstract is unavailable.

journals.lww.com

since there were no formal journals on trenbolone, primarily case reports. Most people have discussed about the issues with this one compound, from bros to "gurus". just because some people can tolerate it, doesnt mean the majority will