My bloodwork results!

[RzSco]

I just got my bloods, about 2 months after a little 400mg tren cycle and cruising on 250mg of Test Undecanoate once per week (for around 8 weeks now, with a double dose frontload in the first two weeks). Sample was taken 8 days after the last injection, morning, fasted.

So:

Haematocrit 49.8 (range is 35 - 50)
Testosterone is 730ng/dl
Estradiol 113 pmol/L
Prolactin 312 mIU/L
Cortisol 596 nmol/L
LH and FSH 0.4 and 0.3 IU
SHBG 12 nmol/L
Low lymphocytes, 0.84 should be 1.2 minimum
EGFR 80
Creatinine 101 umol/L
CK 280 IU/L (high)
Liver values all nice in middle of range
LDL 2.6 mmol/L (top end of good range)
HDL 1.2 mmol/L (bottom end of good range)
Vitamin B12 181 pmol/L (high, range is 25-165)
TSH 2.17 mIU/L (good)
Free T3 5.3 pmol/L (good)
Free T4 10pmol/L (low, range is 12-22)

Iron 10.3 umol/L (low, range is 10.6-28.3)
Ferritin 29 ug/L (low, range is 30-400)

My thoughts on this:
1. 730ng/dL from 250mg TestU is crap and underdosed, but not completely bunk as the LH, FSH, SHBG are still tanked and my natty T was 300... 3 years of "TRT" ago.
2. Thyroid is OK as long as T3 is OK although T4 is way low.
3. Prolactin and estradiol seem a bit high, though it says they're in range.
4. Liver and kidney levels are nice but I should watch my cholesterol and HCT.
5. I'm a little iron deficient. Oops. Is this likely to be affecting my gains?

Overall I think I'm in OK shape to start my next blast, right?

 

[juicebro]

That's not how iron deficiency is diagnosed. You probably don't want to be taking any extra iron with HTC that high

 

[Jet Labs]

On my last blood work my TSH was 5.19 and my doc shrugged it off and said it's fine

 

[RzSco]

I take it I need to do more cardio to lower the HCT?

 

[OmL]

It’s all Individual response. When I use 175mg test u a week my testosterone is 977ng/dl.

I incorporate whole meal foods into every meal, and my cholesterol stays relatively ok even when blasting.

 

[PeterBond]

Your blood work is fine. (And you have no iron deficiency at this point.)

I'd like to see your lymphocytes retested in a month. Do you happen to use glucocorticoids?

 

[RzSco]

I still feel like a conversion ratio of around 3 (250mg per week giving 3 times that amount in Ng/dL) is really low, most guys seem to be in the 5-8 range and I'm not exactly a heavyweight.

My current cycle includes 200mg nandrolone. I'm aware it shows up on bloodwork result as testosterone, does anyone know if the conversion ratio is the same or similar? My total mg will be 750 (250 test U, 300 test E, 200 nand d) so if my conversion ratio really is 3 then that would show 2250 on next blood test. If the test U is underdosed by half and my conversion ratio was actually 6 then the next test should show 3750.

I know conversion ratio is bro science but I can't afford to get vials tested and I don't want to deal with shipping illegal drugs out from the UK anyway.

Why the concern over lymphocytes? I will be getting next bloods in 10 weeks so I'll check them out then. Not using glucocorticoids.

 

[Pineapples4Puss]

I still feel like a conversion ratio of around 3 (250mg per week giving 3 times that amount in Ng/dL) is really low, most guys seem to be in the 5-8 range and I'm not exactly a heavyweight.

My current cycle includes 200mg nandrolone. I'm aware it shows up on bloodwork result as testosterone, does anyone know if the conversion ratio is the same or similar? My total mg will be 750 (250 test U, 300 test E, 200 nand d) so if my conversion ratio really is 3 then that would show 2250 on next blood test. If the test U is underdosed by half and my conversion ratio was actually 6 then the next test should show 3750.

I know conversion ratio is bro science but I can't afford to get vials tested and I don't want to deal with shipping illegal drugs out from the UK anyway.

Why the concern over lymphocytes? I will be getting next bloods in 10 weeks so I'll check them out then. Not using glucocorticoids.

For reference my last NPP/test cycle I was on 275 NPP and 250 test. My test came up at around 3750-3900. on 300 mg of test I’m at 2700.

 

[RzSco]

So you have a 9x for test and around a 6x for nand, I'll have to try different brands of gear as my 3x ratio seems very suspect.

 

[PeterBond]

I still feel like a conversion ratio of around 3 (250mg per week giving 3 times that amount in Ng/dL) is really low, most guys seem to be in the 5-8 range and I'm not exactly a heavyweight.

My current cycle includes 200mg nandrolone. I'm aware it shows up on bloodwork result as testosterone, does anyone know if the conversion ratio is the same or similar? My total mg will be 750 (250 test U, 300 test E, 200 nand d) so if my conversion ratio really is 3 then that would show 2250 on next blood test. If the test U is underdosed by half and my conversion ratio was actually 6 then the next test should show 3750.

I know conversion ratio is bro science but I can't afford to get vials tested and I don't want to deal with shipping illegal drugs out from the UK anyway.

Why the concern over lymphocytes? I will be getting next bloods in 10 weeks so I'll check them out then. Not using glucocorticoids.

The lymphocyte result is most likely just a fluke, but it might be caused by a serious underlying issue. If it remains decreased at a second blood test it's worth to follow-up.

Testosterone undecanoate has a ridiculously long half-life, it's still accumulating in your body.

 

[RzSco]

My other white blood cell results were all good, just the lymphocytes were a bit under-represented. I'll keep an eye on it.

Test U has 21 days half life so after 8 weeks (52 days) I should be at least at 80% of the final saturation? I don't think it's in castor oil which would increase the half life but, this UGL is not great about providing details and unfortunately is the only UK based source for Undecanoate.

 

[PeterBond]

My other white blood cell results were all good, just the lymphocytes were a bit under-represented. I'll keep an eye on it.

Test U has 21 days half life so after 8 weeks (52 days) I should be at least at 80% of the final saturation? I don't think it's in castor oil which would increase the half life but, this UGL is not great about providing details and unfortunately is the only UK based source for Undecanoate.

The steady-state half-life of testosterone undecanoate is 70 days (this is also consistent with the injection interval recommended by Bayer for Nebido):

Treatment of male hypogonadism with testosterone undecanoate injected at extended intervals of 12 weeks: a phase II study - PubMed

This paper reports the result of an open-label, non-randomized clinical trial investigating the efficacy and safety of an injectable preparation of testosterone undecanoate (TU) dissolved in castor oil and given over a 3.2-year period. In a previous study we demonstrated that injections of TU...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[RzSco]

I was referring to the elimination half life which is around 20 days, or 30 in castor oil?

A pharmacokinetic study of injectable testosterone undecanoate in hypogonadal men - PubMed

Testosterone undecanoate (TU) provides testosterone (T) replacement for hypogonadal men when administered orally but requires multiple doses per day and produces widely variable serum T levels. We investigated the pharmacokinetics of a newly available TU preparation administered by intramuscular...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

After 60 days then, we should have around 87.5% of the steady state value (1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8)?

If I'm having to inject weekly to maintain only 730ng/ml then I might as well go back to using enanthate which is cheaper and more reliable in terms of having plenty of sources.

 

[PeterBond]

I was referring to the elimination half life which is around 20 days, or 30 in castor oil?

A pharmacokinetic study of injectable testosterone undecanoate in hypogonadal men - PubMed

Testosterone undecanoate (TU) provides testosterone (T) replacement for hypogonadal men when administered orally but requires multiple doses per day and produces widely variable serum T levels. We investigated the pharmacokinetics of a newly available TU preparation administered by intramuscular...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

After 60 days then, we should have around 87.5% of the steady state value (1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8)?

If I'm having to inject weekly to maintain only 730ng/ml then I might as well go back to using enanthate which is cheaper and more reliable in terms of having plenty of sources.

These are single-dose pharmacokinetics. After multiple doses (i.e. steady state) pharmacokinetics are markedly different for this ester.

 

[RzSco]

What's the mechanism behind that?

The way I understand it, the injected esterified steroid forms - lacking a better word - a 'puddle' in the muscle which is slowly absorbed into the blood according to the water solubility of the ester, after which esterase quickly cleaves away the ester and leaves the hormone ready to do it's job. I don't see how this process distinguish between single and repeat doses.

One thing I've never really been clear about is whether the half lives are based on:
1. Just the amount of time for esterase to release half the drug after it enters the blood
Or
2. As above, but also including the time for the drug to dissolve into the blood

 

[PeterBond]

What's the mechanism behind that?

The way I understand it, the injected esterified steroid forms - lacking a better word - a 'puddle' in the muscle which is slowly absorbed into the blood according to the water solubility of the ester, after which esterase quickly cleaves away the ester and leaves the hormone ready to do it's job. I don't see how this process distinguish between single and repeat doses.

I don't really know, I'd have to guess. My guess is that, with a single dose, there's a substantial period of time that there's an acutal depot of the oil in the muscle which releases the compound by simple diffusion. This partly depends on the surface area of the depot, among other things. The oil will spread as a very thin layer across the length of the muscle fibers, yielding a large surface area.

After a couple of days, this depot will become smaller and smaller, and finally no trace of an actual oil depot in the muscle can be found: the oil will have spread throughout the body and (I suppose) be incorporated in adipose tissue. The steroid will then be dissolved in a larger volume of oil (that of the adipocytes), but with a relatively smaller surface area and thus a slower rate of diffusion. (In absolute terms, of course, the surface area will be larger-but the steroid will be a lot less concentrated.)

This will be increasingly more relevant with "slow" esters, as with shorter/faster esters most of the steroid will already have left the oil depot before it's largely added to adipose tissue. And thus also more relevant with multiple doses, as there's more accumulation.

Edit: this is mostly a brain fart from my side, as I haven't thought this through too much. So perhaps I'll be slaughtered by some nerd with my logic here soon enough.

 

[PeterBond]

One thing I've never really been clear about is whether the half lives are based on:
1. Just the amount of time for esterase to release half the drug after it enters the blood
Or
2. As above, but also including the time for the drug to dissolve into the blood

A half-life is solely based on a series of blood concentrations of the compound over time, which are then thrown into a curve fitting function to yield a half-life.

 

[RzSco]

That is a very interesting idea that the oil containing the steroid would end up stored in fat tissue and thus have a slower release time.

Pharmacokinetics are fascinating.

I'll persist with the undecanoate ester for another 30 weeks (10 weeks into next cruise) and then get bloods again. Even if it's still 730ng, it's not terrible.

On another subject, should I perhaps just take caber 0.5 weekly as preventive measure as prolactin near top of range even before I started deca?

 

[PeterBond]

I would leave prolactin as is.

 

[Type-IIx]

I don't really know, I'd have to guess. My guess is that, with a single dose, there's a substantial period of time that there's an acutal depot of the oil in the muscle which releases the compound by simple diffusion. This partly depends on the surface area of the depot, among other things. The oil will spread as a very thin layer across the length of the muscle fibers, yielding a large surface area.

After a couple of days, this depot will become smaller and smaller, and finally no trace of an actual oil depot in the muscle can be found: the oil will have spread throughout the body and (I suppose) be incorporated in adipose tissue. The steroid will then be dissolved in a larger volume of oil (that of the adipocytes), but with a relatively smaller surface area and thus a slower rate of diffusion. (In absolute terms, of course, the surface area will be larger-but the steroid will be a lot less concentrated.)

This will be increasingly more relevant with "slow" esters, as with shorter/faster esters most of the steroid will already have left the oil depot before it's largely added to adipose tissue. And thus also more relevant with multiple doses, as there's more accumulation.

Edit: this is mostly a brain fart from my side, as I haven't thought this through too much. So perhaps I'll be slaughtered by some nerd with my logic here soon enough.

Great job with your explanation. When guys ask you to explain something that requires advanced degrees at schools of pharmacy to study just the math behind PK, you should just drop the basic formulae and let them read the full text of the relevant research to understand the calculus involved.

Generally, a single compartment model for a single bolus versus a multiple dose regimen is:

Elimination rate constant (ke):
ke = CL / Vd = ln C1 - ln C2 / (t2 - t1)

Plasma concentration (single dose):
C = C1 * e^(-ke * t) (ke = elimintation rate constant, t = time to elimintation, C1 = initial concentration)

Plasma concentration (multiple dose):
C = C1 * e^(-ke * t) / (1 - e^[-ke * R]) (R = dosing interval)

Though, IM depot PKs are affected by factors such as surface area (muscle) -- quicker in larger muscle, volume (oil), composition of surrounding tissue, rate of blood flow, osmotic pressure, esterase activity, lymphatic drainage, injection depth, pH and osmolarity of solution, exercise, physical activity, and systemic illness (that's everything I can personally think of). So the best we can do is have people (much smarter than I) do careful PK and PD study of each compound, publish it, and do our best to interpret and apply it.

Honestly, I tried to really grok this stuff a while ago and plot some stuff like AUC based on some PK paper a while ago and ended up just asking Peter Bond for help and he gave me a greatly simplified means for understanding the dissolution from depot (ignore all the extraneous details; it would take serious study and I'd have to be smarter to understand it).

- Nerd that is in agreement with your logic and explanation!