My introduction.....

[idmd]

Do CHO, fat, and protein have the same effect on insulin secreted from the pancreas? You know the answer.

What about how they affect on hunger? You know this answer too.

I think it's short-sited to consider only the short term effects of CHO intake on insulin production when longterm weight loss is by far a more important goal for overall health. I have tried South Beach and Atkins and I do agree cutting out CHO levels out the spikes in blood sugar and keeps hunger down. Longterm it's just not something MOST people can maintain. I think learning how to establish a healthy balanced diet with a net caloric intake equal to a healthy weight is really easier.

I have no problems being hungry...I never have. I was more of the eat a reasonable bowl of pasta and even though I'm satiated go back for more because either it's really taste or hell I'm bored and it's there.

The truth is until you start looking at the exact energy content of what you eat most people have no idea how much they are consuming. I've found changing nothing about my diet (my old diet) I only consume 1000-1200 calories between breakfast and dinner and most of my over eating was during dinner where I could eat a pound of pasta in a cream sauce with a half bottle of red equal to 2000+ calories.

On my new diet my breakfast and lunch choices while still worth 1000-1200 calories are better choices and to be honest 1200 calorie dinner can be a substantial dinner.

For people who know they shouldn't eat more and they can't deal with hunger I think South Beach is a decent tool until they fall of the wagon at which time they have no idea how to work CHO into their diet while keeping their calories in check.

 

[LW64]

I think it's short-sited to consider only the short term effects of CHO intake on insulin production when longterm weight loss is by far a more important goal for overall health.

I was talking about long term effects, i.e., maintenance. How can a diet with 40 or 50+% carbohydrate as a percent of calories be better at lowering insulin than a diet where CHO is restricted to something far less than that?

 

[idmd]

I was talking about long term effects, i.e., maintenance. How can a diet with 40 or 50+% carbohydrate as a percent of calories be better at lowering insulin than a diet where CHO is restricted to something far less than that?

From everything I've seen and learned in insulin resistant individuals (and early type 2 DM) you achieve the goal of lowering insulin production through lowering visceral fat deposits/eliminating fatty liver and increase insulin sensitivity/utilization by peripheral tissues through exercise. The entire key seems to be visceral fat and fatty liver and not daily CHO intake (so long as it isn't excessive).

ALL of the endocrine changes that happen occur in the presence of fatty liver which itself happens due to all of the crap being dumped into the portal system by visceral fat.

Obesity by itself does not cause these problems...obesity + fatty liver causes these changes in insulin sensitivity. If you can get rid of visceral fat and fatty liver the endo will become normalish again.

My main goal has to be a livable diet AND reduction of my visceral fat deposits.

BTW....I'd say my diet is 30% complex carbs, 30% good fat and 60% protein.

 

[jonkobeck]

From everything I've seen and learned in insulin resistant individuals (and early type 2 DM) you achieve the goal of lowering insulin production through lowering visceral fat deposits/eliminating fatty liver and increase insulin sensitivity/utilization by peripheral tissues through exercise. The entire key seems to be visceral fat and fatty liver and not daily CHO intake (so long as it isn't excessive).

ALL of the endocrine changes that happen occur in the presence of fatty liver which itself happens due to all of the crap being dumped into the portal system by visceral fat.

Obesity by itself does not cause these problems...obesity + fatty liver causes these changes in insulin sensitivity. If you can get rid of visceral fat and fatty liver the endo will become normalish again.

My main goal has to be a livable diet AND reduction of my visceral fat deposits.

BTW....I'd say my diet is 30% complex carbs, 30% good fat and 60% protein.

How many grams of carbs would you say you are consuming per day?

 

[idmd]

How many grams of carbs would you say you are consuming per day?

Not a clue and I don't really want to start weighing my food. Counting calories is already burdensome enough. Why do you ask?

 

[keriheat]

Not a clue and I don't really want to start weighing my food. Counting calories is already burdensome enough. Why do you ask?

Probably cause your math dont work. 30% + 30% + 60% = 120%

Plus 60% protein isn't going to do your insulin resistance any good at all!

From the website Livestrong:

Protein

Protein helps build lean muscle mass. Other proteins help maintain and repair tissue. Still other proteins act as enzymes and hormone building blocks that control bodily processes from digestion to reproduction. Nearly every cell in your body contains protein. Moreover, scientists have discovered proteins that are involved in the development and progression of diabetes. The USDA Dietary Guidelines for Americans 2010 advocates consuming between 10 percent and 35 percent of all calories from protein sources. The Institute of Medicine says the recommended dietary allowance for most men works out to about 56 g and 46 g for women.

Your number of 60% of 2800 calories would be 1680 protein calories.This is a stab in the dark, but at that rate your protein intake will be about 140-150 grams a day. It looks like your protein as a percent of calories should be about 20% and even a little less would be better.

AND...If you get the proteins from plant food, it will contain a lot of carbs...and that, turns to sugar that turns to fat. "Eat Red Meat"

Before you finalize your diet, I would encourage you to read Steve Phinney's book 'The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living'

I might add, if you followed Phinney's guidelines you might not have to take the Diovan HCT any longer.

 

[idmd]

Probably cause your math dont work. 30% + 30% + 60% = 120%
'

Ha! Biology/chemistry double major with two semesters of physical chem and math through differential equations and I can't add! This is what low T has done to me!

Carbs = 30%
Fat = 30%
Protein = 40%
--------------
100%.

 

[keriheat]

Ha! Biology/chemistry double major with two semesters of physical chem and math through differential equations and I can't add! This is what low T has done to me!

Carbs = 30%
Fat = 30%
Protein = 40%
--------------
100%.

I know your a smart guy. It shows up in your posts. Please don't blow off my post over the math error. In practical terms there is good advice in this thread for you. I could rehash all the benefits of 'Low carb, High Fat that I have obtained, but this is about you.

I was in a hurry also. Slow down and get it right, you will thank yourself for it 40 years from now!

 

[jonkobeck]

Not a clue and I don't really want to start weighing my food. Counting calories is already burdensome enough. Why do you ask?

Because I also have a fatty liver. A few months ago I did a low carb semi Paleo diet. I didn't do the full diet, but most days I kept it to below 100g of carbs, some days I did less then 50 and others I did 100. I did it for a month and lost about 20 pounds. One day I gave into my craving for spaghetti and clams and that was the end of that diet, lol!
But surprisingly I haven't put any of the weight back on. I do plan to go back on a modified version of the Paleo. I'm not going to go nuts, just eliminate all simple carbs and sugars. Btw I'm 5' 11" and weight 225. My "ideal" weight according to the life insurance charts is somewhere around 180 but if I could get down to about 200 I would be happier then a pig in s...

 

[idmd]

Your number of 60% of 2800 calories would be 1680 protein calories.This is a stab in the dark, but at that rate your protein intake will be about 140-150 grams a day. It looks like your protein as a percent of calories should be about 20% and even a little less would be better.

AND...If you get the proteins from plant food, it will contain a lot of carbs...and that, turns to sugar that turns to fat. "Eat Red Meat"

Before you finalize your diet, I would encourage you to read Steve Phinney's book 'The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living'

I might add, if you followed Phinney's guidelines you might not have to take the Diovan HCT any longer.

I'm not blowing you off at all and I appreciate the discussion! This is an area that A LOT of people (including myself struggle) in because it's just not that simple. People who sell books need "hooks" and "reasons" for people to buy their books. There are alternate motives besides the raw decimation of knowledge for the betterment of society. Furthermore, ALL diets are essentially a form of calorie restriction. Yes, some are designed to control changes in blood sugar and keep craving at bay. Some try and "capitalize" on the body's own biochemistry and they way it naturally stores or utilizes the three macronutrients but in the end the laws of physics govern weight loss. Energy in, regardless of source must be less than energy out over a period of time for weight loss to occur. Yes, this is simplistic and they physiological response to various diets in the forms of lipid profiles and other measures differs but in the end this is always true.

As a biology/chemistry double major with a concentration in biochemistry and later as a PhD candidate in immunology (I didn't not complete my PhD but I am first author on a number of articles in the Journal of Immunology and Cancer Cell)
and finally as a dental student at a school that believed in training the medical and dental students together I have had the pleasure to not only learn a lot of biochemistry but also I've had the pleasure to hear some fantastic speakers. One of the most impressive humans I have ever had the pleasure to know and hear lecture (on any subject) goes by the name of Robert L. Jungas, PhD. He is a Harvard-trained biochemist who worked in the area of GI physiology and metabolic energy regulation. He sat on the original panel for the American Heart Association who determined the 200 total cholesterol number (which to this day he will say is totally bogus and a completely arbitrary number that means nothing statistically). He is the first person I've ever seen who could take a diet plan and with a piece of chalk in his hand write out from memory (including all pathways involved right down to how the diet would effect regulation for enzymes) why from a biochemical point of view a diet was or was not sound. He also followed the clinical literature as well.

His conclusion was South Beach (and Akins) was the most sound (although not perfect) diet idea for quick weight loss in severely obese people who had to lose weight quickly. Its real downside was in maintenance of weight once you lost it. If you look at human physiology, GI physiology in particular, human evolution, human dentition there is one undeniable fact (regardless of what the low carb diet authors say) - humans were designed to crave and use carbohydrate in their diets and to exclude or severely limit them goes against human nature.

For the mild to moderately obese individual we can go back to the concept of energy in needs to be less than energy out to lose weight. Even a net deficit of 300 calories per day (a few less bites of food and hardly a cause of feeling starving) over time will result in weight loss. Furthermore, learning to use all three macronutrients in a healthy way paves the way for longterm weight loss. As long as you know the energy content of what you are eating there is no "wagon to fall off of" and you're not abnormally restricting one only three macronutrients that the human body has evolved to want.

But no body wants to hear count calories, eat less and exercise more - that's just not sexy enough to sell books. Furthermore the weight loss isn't as dramatic in the beginning and even if the longterm results are better people want results now.

I'm down 7 lbs this week - much of the initial probably water but have settled into (I graph my caloric intake and weight daily) a nice 1-1.5lb per week trend by limiting my diet just 500-800 calories per day. I'm not starving, I'm not even hungry. I'm just eating better things and NOT a whole pound of pasta with a half bottle of wine for dinner. Once I get my thyroid and low-T figured out I suspect normal physiology will be in my favor and I see even bigger losses.

JMHO

 

[keriheat]

Because I also have a fatty liver. A few months ago I did a low carb semi Paleo diet. I didn't do the full diet, but most days I kept it to below 100g of carbs, some days I did less then 50 and others I did 100. I did it for a month and lost about 20 pounds. One day I gave into my craving for spaghetti and clams and that was the end of that diet, lol!
But surprisingly I haven't put any of the weight back on. I do plan to go back on a modified version of the Paleo. I'm not going to go nuts, just eliminate all simple carbs and sugars. Btw I'm 5' 11" and weight 225. My "ideal" weight according to the life insurance charts is somewhere around 180 but if I could get down to about 200 I would be happier then a pig in s...

At your current weight your body fat (BMI-Body Mass Index) is 31. Ideally your BMI @ 5' 11" Should be no more than 25. That would put you at 179.

Health authorities worldwide mostly agree that:

• A BMI of less than 18 means you are under weight.
• A BMI of less than 18.5 indicates you are thin for your height.
• A BMI between 18.6 and 24.9 indicates you are at a healthy weight.
• A BMI between 25 and 29.9 suggests you are overweight for your height.
• A BMI of 30 or greater indicates obesity. If you are obese, consider consulting a doctor or losing weight.

 

[zkt]

Cal(in)= Energy expenditure + stored energy(triglycerides)/(glycogen)+ non-adipose mass increase.
So its not a simple static linear function.
How Cal(in) is proportioned depends on physical activity level and mainly insulin levels.
CHO and to a lessor extent, protein, raise insulin. Fat doesnt.
As serum insulin increases so does energy storage.
A high SFA, not PUFA, diet with moderate protein and COMPLEX carbs produces the lowest and most stable insulin levels.
Fat doesnt make you fat- simple carbs and protein make you fat.
This is obliously an oversimplification as there are numerous enzymes and reactions taking place in the metabolism of any given Cal.
I would be happy to go into the biochemistry in depth if you like- I certainly could use the review.
But this is the gist of the matter as I see it.

 

[idmd]

Cal(in)= Energy expenditure + stored energy(triglycerides)/(glycogen)+ non-adipose mass increase.
So its not a simple static linear function.
How Cal(in) is proportioned depends on physical activity level and mainly insulin levels.
CHO and to a lessor extent, protein, raise insulin. Fat doesnt.
As serum insulin increases so does energy storage.
A high SFA, not PUFA, diet with moderate protein and COMPLEX carbs produces the lowest and most stable insulin levels.
Fat doesnt make you fat- simple carbs and protein make you fat.
This is obliously an oversimplification as there are numerous enzymes and reactions taking place in the metabolism of any given Cal.
I would be happy to go into the biochemistry in depth if you like- I certainly could use the review.
But this is the gist of the matter as I see it.

Perfect! My diet has moderate protein intake almost all complex carbs! And no need to cover what I already know. There is another equally important aspect to weight loss....longterm palatability and adherence to the diet. That's why I need to let the evil complex carbs into my diet.

 

[zkt]

Perfect! My diet has moderate protein intake almost all complex carbs! And no need to cover what I already know. There is another equally important aspect to weight loss....longterm palatability and adherence to the diet. That's why I need to let the evil complex carbs into my diet.

And dont forget the olive oil ! :drooling:

 

[idmd]

And dont forget the olive oil ! :drooling:

My main source of fat!

 

[idmd]

My main source of fat!

I'll use yesterday as an example:

Breakfast: plain Greek yogurt, 1 slice American cheese rolled in two slices turkey, coffee with 2 tablespoons 1/2.

Lunch: Turkey, Swiss, lettuce, tomoato, onion, spicy mustard on whole grain bread and a Perrier.

Snack: 6 green olives (50 cal for all)

Dinner: spinage salad with grilled salmon on top with olive oil and just a pinch of balsamic. Perrier to drink.

I did have a slice of Swiss cheese with spicy mustard after dinner around 7:30PM. Savory is just as good as sweet for me after dinner.

Trying to get in at least 4-6 glasses of water in addition to my Perrier and my vitamins.

Ended yesterday at 2300 calories and was never hungry.

 

[Structure]

From everything I've seen and learned in insulin resistant individuals (and early type 2 DM) you achieve the goal of lowering insulin production through lowering visceral fat deposits/eliminating fatty liver and increase insulin sensitivity/utilization by peripheral tissues through exercise. The entire key seems to be visceral fat and fatty liver and not daily CHO intake (so long as it isn't excessive).

I think learning how to establish a healthy balanced diet with a net caloric intake equal to a healthy weight is really easier.

Do CHO, fat, and protein have the same effect on insulin secreted from the pancreas? You know the answer. What about how they affect the main problem dieters have during maintenance - hunger? You know this answer too.

I tend to agree with Idmd here: better results are achieved by diet AND exercise. While insulin can be well controlled by reducing adiposity and eliminating only the simple carbohydrates, the physiology of metabolism dramatically changes when you bring exercise into the picture. When you apply some reason in choosing portions, choosing complex carbs, AND get an hour of cardio, insulin control becomes a non-issue.

Of course, if one is not willing or not able to control portions / exercise, then severe carbohydrate restriction is the next option to control insulin and reduce weight. In fact, I've recommended this approach to my own father, as he cannot be bothered to control his portions or exercise.

There are innumerable studies to back up both approaches. So why do I prefer one over the other?

Because severe carbohydrate restriction does not mesh well with exercise. And while many will argue in favor of their particular diet of choice, few are willing to argue against the benefits of an hour of exercise per day.

 

[idmd]

My current exercise routine is gym 3-5x week. 45-60 mins of lifting. I'm getting away from heavy/lower rep weights and going more lighter weight and higher reps. Honestly my bench workout weight is to start at 220 (not huge) doing two sets 8-10 reps and usually have to lower weight for third set but I feel no need to be huge. I like the release and pump from lifting but that's about it. I always do 60 mins of cardio after. Usually lower impact like the cross trainer or eliptical but with a bit of resistants and can usually cover 4.5-5 miles during that hour. I will also go walking on the treadmill at an incline of 3-5 for 60 mins. I'm sweating balls by the time I'm finished.

 

[jonkobeck]

I'll use yesterday as an example:

Breakfast: plain Greek yogurt, 1 slice American cheese rolled in two slices turkey, coffee with 2 tablespoons 1/2.

Lunch: Turkey, Swiss, lettuce, tomoato, onion, spicy mustard on whole grain bread and a Perrier.

Snack: 6 green olives (50 cal for all)

Dinner: spinage salad with grilled salmon on top with olive oil and just a pinch of balsamic. Perrier to drink.

I did have a slice of Swiss cheese with spicy mustard after dinner around 7:30PM. Savory is just as good as sweet for me after dinner.

Trying to get in at least 4-6 glasses of water in addition to my Perrier and my vitamins.

Ended yesterday at 2300 calories and was never hungry.

So what's wrong with this diet? (not directed at IDMD but everyone else). This is almost identicle to what I was doing, with the exception of the 2 slices of bread. I dropped 20 pounds this way in a month, and my exercise was very moderate. Those 2 slices of bread can't be that bad

 

[chronological]

I tend to agree with Idmd here: better results are achieved by diet AND exercise.

Just back in from a spell of gardening, throwing my 2c in:

The huge, cavernous, stinking post-hoc-ergo-propter-hoc hole in the entire dieting-industrial complex is that poor diet and lack of exercise are themselves *symptoms* of the underlying problem. They are not in themselves the primary causes. The fact that around 97% of people who lose weight -- even those who heroically shed hundreds of pounds -- will regain all of it or more within five years is evidence of that.

Any other piece of medical advice that had a 97% failure rate would get laughed out of court, so why do we continue to bang on with this one? Because despite a growing mass of evidence pointing otherwise, we stick with medieval, or well-nigh prehistoric views on the self, and self-control, and personal responsibility, and motivation, and so on.. The advice to exercise more and eat less is spot on; the problem is that the advice tends to be "*merely* exercise more and eat less". Therein lies the problem.

The problem is not, given any particular level of exercise, *that* we eat too much, but rather that we *want* to eat too much. Successful and sustained weight loss requires us fatties to use out upper brain functions to override, FOR THE REST OF OUR LIVES, our lower brain functions. A prescription that merely tells us *to* implement such an override rather than *how* to implement it, is proving not much more effective as telling someone to stop blinking or stop breathing.

The brain of an overweight or certainly an obese person "believes" the person is supposed to be the higher weight. Inducing a calorie deficit, either by reducing calories or increasing energy output, is interpreted by the hypothalamus as the body entering a pathological situation that must be remedied or survival is at stake,

Here is a video showing the author Christopher Hitchens voluntarily undergoing waterboarding: [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LPubUCJv58]Watch Christopher Hitchens Get Waterboarded (VANITY FAIR) - YouTube[/ame] Hitchens' reaction -- almost instant surrender -- is very much a lack of will power, a lack of self control, a lack of motivation. But he is doing what almost every person would do and is being controlled by his lower brain functions that mistakenly think the brain-carrying organism called "Hitchens" is dying.

Restricting food may not be as traumatic, but it is just as surely the lower brain having its way. And unlike waterboarding, where successful resistance would occur if the person could last only seconds, for a dieter to succeed they have to overcome that lower brain forever.

THAT, is obesity.