My introduction.....

[idmd]

An excellent suggestion. You could use this over the next 8 months while you lose the weight, and then go natural. Your T will increase without shrinking your testicles, which will help with mood and energy.

Furthermore, it would probably be more effective than an AI for assisting your exercise efforts; a recent study indicated that men who raised their T via the use of an AI did not see similar body compositional changes as did men who raised T through other means, despite having similar T levels (see: http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/94/12/4665.full.pdf): (Testosterone: More Is Not Always Better) J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2009;94(12):4665-7.)

"In the same study of im testosterone noted above, Page et al. (14) also found that testosterone therapy was associated with beneficial changes in body composition, including an increase in lean mass and a decrease in fat mass. Interestingly, a previous report by Burnett-Bowie et al. (3) using body composition data from the same anastrozole trial found no effect of anastrozole on either lean or fat mass. This finding raises the question of whether the body composition changes associated with testosterone therapy may also be mediated, at least in part, via aromatization to estradiol. As noted by the authors in their previous publication (3), there is evidence from rodent and human studies supporting a role for estrogen in regulating body composition. Thus, male mice with inactivation of either estrogen receptor alpha or the aromatase genes have increased fat mass (15, 16). Moreover, Vandenput et al. (17) found that in orchidectomized rats, estradiol not only prevented bone loss but also increased lean body mass and inhibited the orchiectomy-associated increase in fat mass. Studies in men with prostate cancer have found that treatment with bicalutamide (an androgen receptor blocker that increases estradiol levels) results in smaller increases in fat mass compared with treatment with a GnRH agonist (which reduces both testosterone and estradiol production) (18). Combined with the data from the anastrozole study (3), these findings indicate that aromatization of testosterone to estradiol may be critical not only for skeletal preservation but also for beneficial effects on body composition."

I was just thinking ALL of that as I sat here eating dinner

I greatly appreciate your summary of the literature for me.

Thank you Structure!

 

[idmd]

What's the literature say about longterm Clomid therapy in men?

 

[LW64]

There were some cites in this thread and I know there are others:

https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/134313294

There are a few of us on this board who have used it more than a year with no problems. And there are others who tried it, had wicked sides, and came off it immediately. Did you mention one of your docs wants to put you on it? I think that will be the only way to know how you'll react to it. I know the tablets are 50 mg and you can break them in half, but you can try cutting those in half one or two more times and see how things work with a low dose. You just want to 'push' the hypothalamus a bit and not much more. Take the full amount for the 5 or 6 day stimulation test, if that's what your doc suggests and try out the reduced doses with some days in between after that. At one point I was taking it twice a week wth Total T in the mid to high 500s.

If it works, it is the absolute easiet way to keep your T on line.

 

[idmd]

There were some cites in this thread and I know there are others:

https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/134313294

There are a few of us on this board who have used it more than a year with no problems. And there are others who tried it, had wicked sides, and came off it immediately. Did you mention one of your docs wants to put you on it? I think that will be the only way to know how you'll react to it. I know the tablets are 50 mg and you can break them in half, but you can try cutting those in half one or two more times and see how things work with a low dose. You just want to 'push' the hypothalamus a bit and not much more. Take the full amount for the 5 or 6 day stimulation test, if that's what your doc suggests and try out the reduced doses with some days in between after that. At one point I was taking it twice a week wth Total T in the mid to high 500s.

If it works, it is the absolute easiet way to keep your T on line.

I'm on 100mg per day for 10 days followed by a blood test for FSH/LH. The plan was to then stop the Clomid and use a AI. I'm now seriously rethinking that approach but I have 9 more days of research and thinking it over before I talk to my endo. Just gathering all the info at this point.

 

[Structure]

I was just thinking ALL of that as I sat here eating dinner

I greatly appreciate your summary of the literature for me.

Thank you Structure!

What's the literature say about longterm Clomid therapy in men?

Anytime.

The worst potential side effect from Clomid is eye "floaters"; there is evidence that eye "floaters" (visible floating debris) may occur given a high enough dose and a long enough period of time. I'm not versed well enough in this research to say exactly what this dosage is or how long you have to take it before floaters become likely. Perhaps someone else is more versed in this research and can speak up? Has anyone here had floaters from Clomid?

Other than that, side effects can include moodiness, increased libido, or decreased libido, etc. (depending on the individual). Should you find yourself with these side effects, rest assured that they resolve after the medication is discontinued. One thing that I am not sure about, however, is whether or not the floaters can become permanent. Does anyone have a study that says anything about the incidence of floaters, the doses associated with the production of floaters (and duration at this dose), and how long it takes for them to resolve?

 

[idmd]

Diet is going well...almost down 11 lbs and that includes a day where I went to see DMB and admittedly exceeded my daily caloric intake in beer alone. I'm settling into a 2500 calorie diet which is a 1lb per day weight loss at the moment although it may not be totally from the diet.

I'm exercising almost everyday and have been on new thyroid meds and Clomid so that be helping a bit too. I've felt my energy up a little the last 2 days although I'm getting an URI so maybe it would be more....have the viral infection body aches this AM.

 

[idmd]

So day 7 of my 100mg qd clomid and I may be noticing some visual issues....it's difficult to say. Yes I "think" I see more floaters (I've always had them) but is that just because I'm focused on them? Also, and it's hard to say because I still have an URI and feel kind of out of it already but my vision seems "slow". No trails or anything but almost like when I look away from something bright quickly the image seems a split second behind. Hardly objective but I call the doctor anyway.

Actually feeling really out of it at the moment mentally......hmmmm

 

[idmd]

I don't know if it's Synthroid or the Clomid but for the last three days something has me wanting to eat the heads off of puppies.

No more visual issues.

Besides boosting test and possibly E2 does Clomid have other documented direct effects on mood?

 

[Structure]

I don't know if it's Synthroid or the Clomid but for the last three days something has me wanting to eat the heads off of puppies.

No more visual issues.

Besides boosting test and possibly E2 does Clomid have other documented direct effects on mood?

Unfortunately, SERMs (including Clomid) are well known for causing moodiness. Although I was under the impression that this was much more of a problem with tamoxifen than with Clomid...

Could also be the weight loss; your body can really fuck with your mood when you are expending more calories than you are consuming. Anyone who's lost a significant amount of weight can attest to this...

 

[idmd]

Hmmm....interesting. Yeah I'm really kind of a dick right now and it's kinda hard to control. Hope it's the dose but what's the point of using a SERM to raise T levels if this is how it makes you feel? I was in a better mood and more stable emotionally when my T was sitting at rock bottom.

Good news is down 16 lbs and going strong.

 

[MANWHORE]

Has anyone here had floaters from Clomid?

If I take enough clomid, I get trails
like a light dose of LSD.

I can move my hand in front of my face and
see it choppy trailing in front of me...
Know what I mean?
They are heaviest right after I wake up

I also get a very noticeable feeling of well being...
From someones voice or from just petting a cat ...
No, not my girls cat.. A meow cat

 

[Structure]

Hmmm....interesting. Yeah I'm really kind of a dick right now and it's kinda hard to control. Hope it's the dose but what's the point of using a SERM to raise T levels if this is how it makes you feel? I was in a better mood and more stable emotionally when my T was sitting at rock bottom.

Good news is down 16 lbs and going strong.

Try an experiment: go off your diet for a day and see if you are still an asshole. If the diet is causing the moodiness, it will resolve within the day with additional calories. If it's the Clomid, then you'll just be a well-fed asshole.

I took tamoxifen for a while once upon a time. Man, I was such an asshole I could not believe it was me, even when it was happening. Absolutely everything got on my nerves. I knew I was irrational, but knowing that I was irrational did not seem to do much to temper my mood. Needless to say, I stopped the tamoxifen.

If this is happening to you, you'll probably want to know sooner rather than later...

 

[LW64]

Unless he's constantly fighting cravings and/or is always hungry due to his diet - and it doesnt sound like it - my money is on clomid as the cause for moodiness. 100 mg is a huge dose AFAIC and he could get most of the benefits of taking it at a lower dose less frequently.

E.g., 25 mg every other day.

I also believe more than enough time has passed since he started taking clomid to have blood drawn and check his Total T.

 

[MANWHORE]

I use to take 50mg/day clomid years ago and
sometimes would bump it up to 100mg for days
and all I felt was that sense of well being and
seeing trails... The 100mg every day would raise both these.

I had alot of clomid powder many years later and used
to dip my finger in it every day and got the same feelings.
The visual trails come right from the start all the time.

 

[idmd]

Unless he's constantly fighting cravings and/or is always hungry due to his diet - and it doesnt sound like it - my money is on clomid as the cause for moodiness. 100 mg is a huge dose AFAIC and he could get most of the benefits of taking it at a lower dose less frequently.

E.g., 25 mg every other day.

I also believe more than enough time has passed since he started taking clomid to have blood drawn and check his Total T.

No not hungry all the time. I'm eating about 2800 calories per day with NO problem because lets face it....that's a lot of food. Down 15 lbs now.

Dose was never meant to be for TRT long term.....10 day trial to make sure my pituitary is working correctly and because my LH/FSH was so suppressed with my last labs.

 

[Structure]

Unless he's constantly fighting cravings and/or is always hungry due to his diet - and it doesnt sound like it - my money is on clomid as the cause for moodiness. 100 mg is a huge dose AFAIC and he could get most of the benefits of taking it at a lower dose less frequently.

E.g., 25 mg every other day.

I also believe more than enough time has passed since he started taking clomid to have blood drawn and check his Total T.

I use to take 50mg/day clomid years ago and
sometimes would bump it up to 100mg for days
and all I felt was that sense of well being and
seeing trails... The 100mg every day would raise both these.

I had alot of clomid powder many years later and used
to dip my finger in it every day and got the same feelings.
The visual trails come right from the start all the time.

Good points.

Of course in this particular case, it is easy to isolate the variables, so verification should be easy to obtain...

 

[max247]

You are lucky to live near one of the best in the country. Dr. Ilja Hulinsky, in West Haven. He is the most thorough out there in hormone replacement. He is not like all the anti aging scammers. He gets down to the route of the problem being primary, secondary and tests everything prior to treating or prescribing treatment. He is an endocrinologist that specializes in this. Further he accepts insurance.

I told you the guy is a genius. Spends huge amounts of time taking your history personally and explaining all of the issues that could be involved. I found his name doing a search on various boards like this and was so relieved after my first visit.

I've been lurking around here for a while, but after reading this thread I feel I should post this. I saw Dr. Hulinsky for low testosterone, hoping he would be able to help me. At the time I knew little about TRT and male hormones and unknowingly let him scam me and cause further damage to my body. Without checking first to see if I was primary or secondary hypo (looking back now I realize it was secondary), he pushed me straight onto androgel. Now that I know what the risks are, especially at my age, I wonder why we never discussed trying HCG or doing a restart in the first place.

Every time I saw him the explanations he gave would be different from previous ones, always changing his diagnosis and misleading. First it was secondary hypo, then primary, then switching back and forth again. When I asked him about all of the possible risks of taking androgel (testicular shutdown, transferring gel to others, causing infertility) he downplayed them every time, assuring me that testicular shutdown was not possible ("at a low dose of androgel you won't be shut down," "we're only replacing what your body needs, so you won't be suppressed"), downplayed the risks of transferring, and told me I would only become infertile if I took "bodybuilder dosages" of androgel. Only after I saw another doctor was I seriously warned and taken off what had been a dangerously high dosage of androgel prescribed by Dr. Hulinsky.

When we first started the androgel, my T levels plummeted to near zero after two weeks. Dr. Hulinsky offered no advice other than to raise the dosage. Over time we raised the dosage to very high levels, with T rising only slightly, during this time he never once warned me to stop or to try something else. It wasn't until I found another doctor that I realized what a scam he had been. It's possible my testicles have been shut down permanently by the long period of androgel use and I've caused more damage to my body. At my age, had we tried HCG or some sort of restart protocol first, I could have possibly restarted my own T production. But now, it might no longer be possible. I truly regret the mistakes I made in trusting Dr. Hulinsky and I hope other guys looking for help on these boards take caution with any advice they're given here. Be very careful who you trust. I don't want anyone else making the same mistakes I did.

Dr. Hulinsky is a scammer and he should not be advertised on these boards. A message to the various aliases on these boards pretending to be patients of Dr. Hulinsky: I know who you are and I will be watching you closely to make sure you stop selling your services on these boards.

 

[idmd]

I've been lurking around here for a while, but after reading this thread I feel I should post this. I saw Dr. Hulinsky for low testosterone, hoping he would be able to help me. At the time I knew little about TRT and male hormones and unknowingly let him scam me and cause further damage to my body. Without checking first to see if I was primary or secondary hypo (looking back now I realize it was secondary), he pushed me straight onto androgel. Now that I know what the risks are, especially at my age, I wonder why we never discussed trying HCG or doing a restart in the first place.

Every time I saw him the explanations he gave would be different from previous ones, always changing his diagnosis and misleading. First it was secondary hypo, then primary, then switching back and forth again. When I asked him about all of the possible risks of taking androgel (testicular shutdown, transferring gel to others, causing infertility) he downplayed them every time, assuring me that testicular shutdown was not possible ("at a low dose of androgel you won't be shut down," "we're only replacing what your body needs, so you won't be suppressed"), downplayed the risks of transferring, and told me I would only become infertile if I took "bodybuilder dosages" of androgel. Only after I saw another doctor was I seriously warned and taken off what had been a dangerously high dosage of androgel prescribed by Dr. Hulinsky.

When we first started the androgel, my T levels plummeted to near zero after two weeks. Dr. Hulinsky offered no advice other than to raise the dosage. Over time we raised the dosage to very high levels, with T rising only slightly, during this time he never once warned me to stop or to try something else. It wasn't until I found another doctor that I realized what a scam he had been. It's possible my testicles have been shut down permanently by the long period of androgel use and I've caused more damage to my body. At my age, had we tried HCG or some sort of restart protocol first, I could have possibly restarted my own T production. But now, it might no longer be possible. I truly regret the mistakes I made in trusting Dr. Hulinsky and I hope other guys looking for help on these boards take caution with any advice they're given here. Be very careful who you trust. I don't want anyone else making the same mistakes I did.

Dr. Hulinsky is a scammer and he should not be advertised on these boards. A message to the various aliases on these boards pretending to be patients of Dr. Hulinsky: I know who you are and I will be watching you closely to make sure you stop selling your services on these boards.

I'm lucky to be in a position where I have tremendous amounts of education in all things to do with human physiology and pathophysiology. I also am in a position where I treat patients as a specialist and can say that in spite of my 25 years of education and two residencies sometimes things don't turn out as I planned. I too inevitably have patients out there who also feel like I such even if the circumstances where ultimately outside my control. That's life.

I would never do something a doctor suggested unless it made sense. It's why I'm on here to begin with but Dr. H is on the right track compared to what other doctors have told me. Everyone else didn't pay any attention to figuring why and just wanted to start TRT.

The fact is no one is perfect and there's always more to a disgruntled patients story than they let on....

 

[max247]

I'm lucky to be in a position where I have tremendous amounts of education in all things to do with human physiology and pathophysiology. I also am in a position where I treat patients as a specialist and can say that in spite of my 25 years of education and two residencies sometimes things don't turn out as I planned.

And because you practice medicine, Dr. Hulinsky, you have a responsiblity to do no harm to your patients. Ultimately, their lives are in your hands. Your patients' lives are not a game, the harm you cause to them can be for life.

If you can't handle this responsibility, then why are you still practicing?

I too inevitably have patients out there who also feel like I such even if the circumstances where ultimately outside my control. That's life.

There's a difference between making honest mistakes and deliberately harming your patients. How can you justify your 25 years of medical education if you play games with your patients' lives?

I would never do something a doctor suggested unless it made sense. It's why I'm on here to begin with

Do you believe that it is acceptable for a doctor to deliberately mislead his patients because they don't possess the medical knowledge that he does?

but Dr. H is on the right track compared to what other doctors have told me. Everyone else didn't pay any attention to figuring why and just wanted to start TRT.

Then why did we jump immediately on TRT without checking to see why I was low T? If you knew jumping on TRT was a bad idea to begin with why didn't we try other options first?

The fact is no one is perfect and there's always more to a disgruntled patients story than they let on....

I'm disgusted by your use of different aliases, pretending to be your own patients and continually advertising for your services here. Shame on you for scamming your patients.

 

[idmd]

And because you practice medicine, Dr. Hulinsky, you have a responsiblity to do no harm to your patients. Ultimately, their lives are in your hands. Your patients' lives are not a game, the harm you cause to them can be for life.

If you can't handle this responsibility, then why are you still practicing?

There's a difference between making honest mistakes and deliberately harming your patients. How can you justify your 25 years of medical education if you play games with your patients' lives?

Do you believe that it is acceptable for a doctor to deliberately mislead his patients because they don't possess the medical knowledge that he does?

Then why did we jump immediately on TRT without checking to see why I was low T? If you knew jumping on TRT was a bad idea to begin with why didn't we try other options first?

I'm disgusted by your use of different aliases, pretending to be your own patients and continually advertising for your services here. Shame on you for scamming your patients.

Dude I'm a 33 yo Irish, English, German, American born in Arlington Heights Il who practices pediatric dentistry.....I'm not a 50+ year old endocrinologist from Sweden or where ever he's from.

I do like the conspiracy theory but you sound bat shit crazy with this rant.