My (Not So Good) Experience With TMG

[DavidZ]

The answer to the question "how do we best control estrogen" is an easy one. First, to decrease its overall concentration through an aromatase inhibitor. Then, by controlling its metabolites thorugh these various OTC products.

I strongly disagree.

Aromatase inhibitors (presumably you're talking about Arimidex and other prescription drugs) are very effective at lowering the numbers (i.e., your blood level of E2), but don't yield the clinical results that one would expect from that decrease in E2. It's results we're after, not numbers.

Swale, quoting from you own "TRT: A Recipe For Success" posted in the sticky at the top of this forum, "I occasionally hear of physicians trying to use a SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator) such as Clomid or Nolvadex, or even an Aromatase Inhibitor (AI), such as Arimidex, as sole “TRT”. All have been shown to elevate LH, and therefore Total Testosterone levels. However, patients report no long-term subjective benefits from these strategies, and the studies thus far reported no long-term changes in lean body mass, fatigue levels, libido, etc."

The problem with prescription aromatase inhibitors is that they do not yield the anticipated subjective benefits when used with or without TRT.

What exactly is "Indolplex"?

In contrast, men taking Indolplex (a proprietary/patented formulation of bioavailable DIM developed and manufactured by Michael Zeligs, MD.) have reported decreased E2 blood levels and all of the subjective benefits that one would expect from that E2 decrease including an immediate and powerful improvement in erectile response.

However, Indolplex/DIM works for some men, but not others. The reason for this distinction is unknown.

Therefore, Indolplex should always be tried FIRST for E2 reduction. If Indolplex/DIM doesn't reduce E2, then a prescription aromatase inhibitor should be used.

 

[mranak]

I strongly disagree.

Aromatase inhibitors (presumably you're talking about Arimidex and other prescription drugs) are very effective at lowering the numbers (i.e., your blood level of E2), but don't yield the clinical results that one would expect from that decrease in E2. It's results we're after, not numbers.

I have talked with many men that observed quite the contrary from your assertion that the subjective benefits of the reduced E2 are not observed from usage of AIs.

That said, if E2 is controlled properly but the subject is still having symptoms of high estrogens, then I suggest you check the total estrogens.

 

[DavidZ]

I have talked with many men that observed quite the contrary from your assertion that the subjective benefits of the reduced E2 are not observed from usage of AIs.

I have taken AIs and have not observed any subjective benefits. In fact, I didn't like the way they made me feel at all.

And I have talked with many men who also experienced little or no subjective improvement from taking an AI. In fact, Swale, in his TRT: Recipe For Success makes this assertion for men not on TRT.

OTOH, have you ever heard of a man getting a massive improvement in erectile response from an AI? I haven't. But I've talked with many men taking Indolplex/DIM who have.

 

[pmgamer18]

All of the above is greek to me. My question is this doing Arimidex did bring my E2 down and my Total E. I have blood work to prove this but I never got over the fatigue or the week feeling in my joints and muscles. I still had a very hard time losing weight.
Now going over to IndolplexDIM in less then a week I got my morning wood back so strong that it wakes me up. I started feeling more energy and started losing weight felt stronger.
Now Adding TMG to the Indolplex/DIM for 6 weeks my Total E came down but my E2 went higher and my DHT is our of control over 2000 range 36 to 573 pg/ml. My past blood work for the last 10 months are about the some for E2 and my DHT. The only thing I changed was I added 750 mgs. of TMG a day.
I stopped using it 3 weeks ago when my last test came back. And my Dr. thinking my E2 problem was from my 500 IU's of HCG 3 times a week. So he cut the dose down to 250 IU's the 5th and 6th days after my shot. Yet my E2 was still out of control and getting worse. I have finely started getting back to normal have not had to take Arimidex .5 mgs everyday. So far all I have taken was Indolplex/DIM for the last 2 days. But last week I had to take one mg. of Arimidex to keep my E2 down a day. I feel the adding of TMG did this and like David said it does not work will with Indolplex that is in the DIM we take. I have been though hell for the last 3 weeks.

 

[SWALE]

Men with elevated estrogens overwhelmingly report tremendous subjective benefit from controlling E's with an AI--when they are on TRT. It would be a VERY rare case for me to lower estrogens as sole "TRT".

DavidZ is correct in that we shouldn't--in the overwhelming majority of cases--just control estrogens as "TRT".

I also do not (usually) add in any estrogen control until I get T tuned up first. Sometimes they will drop on their own once TRT is initiated.

When a guy is on TRT, and his E's are high, lowering them with an AI usually brings tremendous subjective--and healthful--benefits.

Estrogen softens the penis--no matter how high the T is.

 

[SWALE]

DavidZ--I am once again amazed you suppose yourself qualified to disagree with a medical professional who does this for a living. LOL.

 

[pmgamer18]

I found this DIM FAQ.
http://www.rrpwebsite.org/Indolplex.htm
Phil
Frequently asked questions regarding Indolplex (renamed Phytosorb-DIM in 4/2000)
Submitted by Michael A. Zeligs, M.D.



1. What is DIM?

DIM stands for Diindolylmethane: a dietary indole found in cruciferous vegetables and formed spontaneously from the combination (or "condensation") of Indole-3-carbinol (I3C), a closely related indole, also present in these vegetables. DIM occurs naturally within the cruciferous vegetable plant after crushing or chewing from the action of plant enzymes from precursors called glucosinolates. DIM is also formed directly from I3C, without enzymes, in an acidic environment such as in our stomachs, when I3C powder is taken as a food supplement. Based on this, DIM is described as a direct and active metabolite of I3C. This is true since in various tests of estrogen metabolism it is DIM, and not I3C, which promotes a shift in the balance of estrogen metabolites.

2. What is the DIM containing product Indolplex/Phytosorb-DIM?

Indolplex/Phytosorb-DIM is a fine-powder formulation which contains pure DIM for use as a dietary supplement. As described above the DIM in Indolplex/Phytosorb-DIM is a component of the human diet and is found in all cruciferous vegetables. Indolplex/Phytosorb-DIM acts to promote and support a favorable metabolism of estrogen and related hormones. The main function of Indolplex/Phytosorb-DIM is to overcome the extreme insolubility of DIM and make it absorbable from the human intestine. Indolplex/Phytosorb-DIM provides consistent levels and absorption of highly insoluble DIM. The formulation and composition of Indolplex/Phytosorb-DIM constitute a patent-pending, nutrient delivery system developed by BioResponse. In its production process, BioResponse includes testing of each batch of Indolplex/Phytosorb-DIM by an independent analytic laboratory. This quality control assures the consistent level and purity of DIM in the product. In addition, BioResponse has established the shelf life stability of Indolplex/Phytosorb-DIM through testing levels of DIM during exposure to elevated temperature and humidity. This independent laboratory testing has documented at least a 1 year shelf-life during which levels of DIM do not significantly change.Indolplex/Phytosorb-DIM can therefore be included in dietary supplements for human consumption to augment the dietary intake of cruciferous vegetable related ingredients. A daily intake of 3-5 servings of vegetables, especially cruciferous vegetables, is recommended by the USDA "Dietary Guidelines for Americans". Since Indolplex/Phytosorb-DIM contains the predominant dietary indole which results from the digestion of cruciferous vegetables, its use as a supplement relates to normal dietary intake from crucifers. Unlike I3C, Indolplex/Phytosorb-DIM provides a source of dietary indole which is shelf-stable following mixture and encapsulation or tableting with other dietary supplement ingredients. Indolplex/Phytosorb-DIM can augment or replace deficient dailyintake of dietary indoles and contribute to health promotion.

3. How is Indolplex/Phytosorb-DIM unique?

Indolplex/Phytosorb-DIM is differentiated from all other dietary supplements and I3C by the following key points:Indolplex/Phytosorb-DIM with DIM is the only pure dietary indole which is new to the marketplace and introduced in conjunction with a patent-pending nutrient delivery system. Indoles have been proven in a variety of research to be of benefit in estrogen related disorders.Indolplex/Phytosorb-DIM provides protection from unwanted estrogen metabolites. Indolplex/Phytosorb-DIM promotes the production of 2 hydroxyestrone, a key metabolitein men and women and is an estrogen blocker. Indolplex/Phytosorb-DIM provides proven bioavailability of highly insoluble active DIM through action of its patent-pending dosage form and delivery system.

4. How is Indolplex/Phytosorb-DIM used as a dietary supplement?

The dose range for Indolplex/Phytosorb-DIM on a weight basis is from 3-5 mg/kg/day . (One kg is equal to 2.2 lbs.) This is the range in which consistent shifts
in estrogen metabolism have been demonstrated. Use by adults at a doses of
up to 5 mg/kg/day has been side effect free. To facilitate flexible and
appropriate dosage in supplement consumers BioResponse is introducing
Indolplex/Phytosorb-DIM in both 75 and 150 mg strength capsules. This will allow
individuals of different weights to combine capsules of either strength to
achieve an Indolplex/Phytosorb-DIM dose in the 3-5 mg/kg/day range.

It is recommended that individuals with RRP choose a daily dose which is
close to 4 mg/kg/day. To be close to 4 mg/kg/day a typical man weighing
70-85 kg would take from 300 to 375 mg per day. A typical woman weighing
60-70 kg would take from 225 to 300 mg per day.

Indolplex/Phytosorb-DIM is also available in a "Chocolate Sprinkles" form in which the Indolplex/Phytosorb-DIM is contained in chocolate granules for a pleasant tasting alternative to be given by spoon or on food. The dose of "Sprinkles" can
be individualized with each quarter teaspoon being appropriate for each 16
kg of body weight (approximately 35 pounds). Using a measuring spoon ,this
provides 4-5 mg/per kg of Indolplex/Phytosorb-DIM. The Sprinkles weigh more than the milligrams of Indolplex/Phytosorb-DIM in capsules because of the addition of the chocolate flavoring and fructose. This formulation is especially
appropriate for young children and individuals who do not wish to take
capsules. Chocolate Sprinkles are great on cereal, applesauce, ice cream
to name a few tasty ideas.

Ed. Note--Strikethroughs were made by MG, editor. Since this publication, BioResponse has increased the recommended dosage range, and the numbers given above are no longer relevant. My mild-moderate RRP, for example, is currently being maintained in remission with a 7-8 mg/kg dose, and this is the suggested dose for most RRP patients. [Take your weight, divide by 2.2 and multiply by 7-8. That's the suggested dosage in mg.] MG 9/13/02

Regarding potential side effects: No reported side effects have occurred
using Indolplex/Phytosorb-DIM in the range of 3-5 mg/kg/day in either adults or
children. [Ed. note: click here for potentially important reconsiderations regarding this issue. MG]. Based on the experience of individuals taking I3C at excessive
dosage the most commonly reported side effect has been dizziness, head
ache, or unsteady gait. We recommend that Indolplex/Phytosorb-DIM consumers look for this side effect and reduce dosage if it occurs.

5. Availability of Indolplex/Phytosorb-DIM?

TMThe 150 mg strength Indolplex/Phytosorb-DIM capsules will be available by mid-August and contain 60 capsules. The 75 mg bottles contain 90 capsules per bottleand are available now. Both bottles are available for $33.00 per bottle which includes priority mail shipping.Chocolate Sprinkles are now available for $43.00 per bottle which includes shipping. and represents at least a month's supply. As an introductory offer, for every bottle of Chocolate Sprinkles purchased, a second bottlewill be included for FREE. This 2 for one special is a great way to try the Sprinkles.

6. Testing of the formulation of Indolplex/Phytosorb-DIM products?

Indolplex/Phytosorb-DIM has been extensively tested in human subjects to establish a consistent shift in urinary estrogen metabolites at the 3 mg/kg/day dose. There are a number of individuals with RRP currently using Indolplex/Phytosorb-DIM products with good results. Most importantly there are some individuals with RRP who have failed to have good responses to I3C who subsequently did respond to high doses of pure DIM.Whether individuals with RRP will have a more dramatic or consistent response to Indolplex/Phytosorb-DIM over I3C is not known at this time. BioResponse intends to test Indolplex/Phytosorb-DIM in individuals with RRP in controlled trials as soon as such research is designed. In the meantime, use of Indolplex/Phytosorb-DIM by RRP individuals will provide useful information. The important point to remember is that the active indole, DIM, is the most potent dietary substance for achieving the desired shift in estrogen metabolites.

7. Present and Future Research?

New findings from the research community indicate that there are individuals that possess more or less an inherited or genetically determined ability to respond to dietary indoles with a shift in estrogen metabolism. Whether individuals with RRP are special in this regard is not yet known. The bigger question is whether RRP individuals are somehow more susceptible to as yet unidentified environmental influences that shift metabolism of estrogen or other hormones to make them better "hosts" for the human papilloma virus. This question relates another distinct estrogen metabolite identified as 4-hydroxyestrone, present in low amounts in certain tissues. This metabolite arises from its own class of cytochrome enzymes and is associated with abnormal growth in other estrogen sensitive disorders. In preliminary research, both the responsible enzymes and levels of 4-hydroxyestrone are reduced by DIM and I3C in estrogen sensitive cells in culture. Future research will determine whether individuals with RRP produce elevated levels of 4-hydroxyestrones in papilloma tissue. If increased production of 4-hydroxyestrone is modified due to exposure to environmental substances, new approaches to reducing susceptibility and treating RRP may be possible.

 

[smitty4]

About 2 months ago, I tried TMG based upon comments in this forum. After about 3 days, I stopped taking it because I was getting high E2 symptoms.

I suspected back then that TMG somehow interferes with the action of Indolplex/DIM. Phil's experience confirms my observation.

Sorry to show my ignorance, but can changes in total E cause Estrogen related symptoms or is E2 is in the driver's seat when it comes to symptoms. From my limited understanding, it seems that adding the TMG would lower your E4. Is it at all possible that adding the TMG reduced your E4, thus driving your total E too low?

 

[DavidZ]

Men with elevated estrogens overwhelmingly report tremendous subjective benefit from controlling E's with an AI.

Not me. And not a lot of other guys who've tried AIs.

If Indolplex/DIM doesn't work for a guy, then, by all means, give him AIs. But he won't experience nearly the subjective improvement that a guy gets from Indolplex/DIM, if it works for him.

Have you ever heard of a man getting a massive improvement in erectile response from an AI? A response so strong it's like he's a teenager again? I haven't. But I've talked with many men taking Indolplex/DIM who have.

 

[smitty4]

Maybe it depends a little on which symptoms of high E you are experiencing the most. I felt GREAT after I got my Arimidex dosage figured out! My constant lethargy and brain fog disappeared. Granted I didn't have an improvement in my erectile response to the point of feeling like a teenager again, but I can assure you that I felt a HELL of a lot better!

 

[DavidZ]

I felt GREAT after I got my Arimidex dosage figured out! My constant lethargy and brain fog disappeared. Granted I didn't have an improvement in my erectile response to the point of feeling like a teenager again...

Have you tried Indolplex/DIM?

 

[smitty4]

Have you tried Indolplex/DIM?

I have been using a product that contains DIM, I3C, and DMG but I have not tried Indolplex/DIM. Depending on how much you have to take, the Indolplex/DIM is not the cheapest thing on the planet and I can't seem to find a definitive suggested dosage as a starting point. Based on the article that is on the website that pmgamer18 posted, Dr. Zeligs himself seems to suggest that at least 3-5 mg/kg/day should be used for E control. You and others seem to be saying it works with much lower doses...at least as far as erectile function goes.

 

[DavidZ]

I have been using a product that contains DIM, I3C, and DMG but I have not tried Indolplex/DIM. Depending on how much you have to take, the Indolplex/DIM is not the cheapest thing on the planet and I can't seem to find a definitive suggested dosage as a starting point.

It actually works out to be a lot cheaper because you don't need to take as much. See my primer sticky for dosing instructions. I would hesitate to take it with Arimidex because you will probably send E2 too low, if it works for you. Therefore, you might want to reduce or stop the Arimidex before starting a trial of Indolplex.

Based on the article that is on the website that pmgamer18 posted, Dr. Zeligs himself seems to suggest that at least 3-5 mg/kg/day should be used for E control. You and others seem to be saying it works with much lower doses...at least as far as erectile function goes.

The response to Indolplex/DIM varies greatly from person to person. Even in Zeligs' patent he illustrates a few people whose responses are all over the map.

 

[pmgamer18]

Maybe it depends a little on which symptoms of high E you are experiencing the most. I felt GREAT after I got my Arimidex dosage figured out! My constant lethargy and brain fog disappeared. Granted I didn't have an improvement in my erectile response to the point of feeling like a teenager again, but I can assure you that I felt a HELL of a lot better!

When I first found out most of my problems were caused from high E2 I was over 90 on my frist test. I had lost my sex life for over 10 yrs. could not get it up with using a penis pump and a cock ring. I could not reach an orgasm, had a low pain in my prostate with slow voiding. A lot of brain fog, rashs in the same spots and could not eat shrimp any more or go in a spa would break out in hives I also had panic attacks in the middle of the night. I try a lot of products to get my E2 down and some were DIM not Indolplex/DIM but plain old DIM, soy and Evesta. None worked so my Dr. gave my Arimidex I started on .5 mgs. every other day and in 4 weeks has a test nothing changed. So we did .5 mgs eveyday and in 4 weeks my E2 came down to 24. I was a new man my ED got 80% better I could have sex with my wife and reach an orgasm. So yes taking Arimidex did make me feel dam good but when I tried Indolplex/DIM I got even better I have not had morning wood in over 35 yrs. in less then a week on Indolplex/DIM I got it back and so hard it woke me up. I can't take more then one pill of DIM gives me a bad headache. So when I have a hard time keeping my E2 in check I add a low dose of Arimidex once in a wile when needed. I can tell when I need it. So I feel Indolplex/DIM works better with libido and wood.

 

[earthdog]

My experience with Indolplex DIM was not good:

6/28/05 - 100mg Test cyp per week, 250IU hCG twice weekly, 120mg DIM daily (BioResponse formula)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Total T 683 (241-827)
Free T 234 (34-194)
BioAvail T 431 (84-402)
SHBG 18 (7-50)
Estradiol Ult. Sen. 32 (13-54)
Total Estrogen 168 (130 or less)
DHT 45 (25-75)


9/6/05 - 100mg Test cyp per week, 250IU hCG twice weekly, 300mg DIM
daily (BioResponse DIM), 750mg TMG daily
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Total T 625 (241-827)
Free T 216 (34-194)
BioAvail T 415 (84-402)
SHBG 17 (7-50)
Estradiol, Ult. Sen. 37 (10-50) (note the reference range has gone down while my number has gone up)
Total Estrogen 224 (130 or less)
DHT 35 (25-75)


I stopped the DIM and TMG. Doc has put me on Arimidex, .5mg every third day to combat the high E. It is helping the symptoms quite a bit (massive water retention, tingly nipples). I get my next labs taken soon, including a 24-hour urine assessment.

I must also point out that, at those dosages, Arimidex is significantly cheaper than DIM was.

I guess the point of all this is that it varies from guy to guy.

 

[smitty4]

When I first found out most of my problems were caused from high E2 I was over 90 on my frist test. I had lost my sex life for over 10 yrs. could not get it up with using a penis pump and a cock ring. I could not reach an orgasm, had a low pain in my prostate with slow voiding. A lot of brain fog, rashs in the same spots and could not eat shrimp any more or go in a spa would break out in hives I also had panic attacks in the middle of the night. I try a lot of products to get my E2 down and some were DIM not Indolplex/DIM but plain old DIM, soy and Evesta. None worked so my Dr. gave my Arimidex I started on .5 mgs. every other day and in 4 weeks has a test nothing changed. So we did .5 mgs eveyday and in 4 weeks my E2 came down to 24. I was a new man my ED got 80% better I could have sex with my wife and reach an orgasm. So yes taking Arimidex did make me feel dam good but when I tried Indolplex/DIM I got even better I have not had morning wood in over 35 yrs. in less then a week on Indolplex/DIM I got it back and so hard it woke me up. I can't take more then one pill of DIM gives me a bad headache. So when I have a hard time keeping my E2 in check I add a low dose of Arimidex once in a wile when needed. I can tell when I need it. So I feel Indolplex/DIM works better with libido and wood.

So did you discontinue the Arimidex when you started the Indolplex/Dim? You mention your before and after Arimidex labs, I am just curious if you have had any labs done since you started the Indolplex/DIM?

I have had labs done that indicate that Arimidex got my E2 in check. Then we added the DIM, I3C, DMG product and my 2/16 ratio improved dramitically. I am curious at what your 2/16 ratio is. Has anyone who has had success taking Indolplex/Dim had labs done to check their ratio?

 

[SWALE]

Wasn't there some work published comparing I-3-C to DIM over at LEF? I cannot remember where I read it, but it dispelled nearly all of Zelig's claims with regard to DIM, and especially his proprietary product.

TMG is simply a methyl group donor. We know of many, many benefits bestowed upon us by methyl group donors--including reducing the risk of cancer. I can think of no mechanism where additional methyl groups would in any way inhibit DIM/I-3-C.

 

[smitty4]

TMG is simply a methyl group donor. We know of many, many benefits bestowed upon us by methyl group donors--including reducing the risk of cancer. I can think of no mechanism where additional methyl groups would in any way inhibit DIM/I-3-C.

Like with most things in life, I am sure that too much TMG would not be probably not be advisable. The label on the TMG I bought says to take 1-3 scoops per day. Thing is each scoop is 700mg. That seems to me like it might be hitting the upper limits. Does anyone have any suggestions regarding how much TMG one should take.

 

[smitty4]

Wasn't there some work published comparing I-3-C to DIM over at LEF? I cannot remember where I read it, but it dispelled nearly all of Zelig's claims with regard to DIM, and especially his proprietary product.

Do you mean this one?

http://search.lef.org/cgi-src-bin/MsmGo.exe?grab_id=0&EXTRA_ARG=&CFGNAME=MssFind.cfg&host_id=42&page_id=2214&query=dim&hiword=dim%20

 

[pmgamer18]

So did you discontinue the Arimidex when you started the Indolplex/Dim? You mention your before and after Arimidex labs, I am just curious if you have had any labs done since you started the Indolplex/DIM?

I have had labs done that indicate that Arimidex got my E2 in check. Then we added the DIM, I3C, DMG product and my 2/16 ratio improved dramitically. I am curious at what your 2/16 ratio is. Has anyone who has had success taking Indolplex/Dim had labs done to check their ratio?

Yes the reason I tried the Indolplex/DIM at the time on Testim 10 grams a day my E2 on Arimidex .25 every 5th day I was going to low. So I stopped using it and tried Indolplex/DIM and yes I have a lot of labs done on it. One guy is taking about ratio's I don't care about ratio's I go by how I feel and in most cases the ratio is good and I feel bad. So you can't go by ratios or ranges for T levels I go by how I feel.