My (Not So Good) Experience With TMG

[smitty4]

Yes the reason I tried the Indolplex/DIM at the time on Testim 10 grams a day my E2 on Arimidex .25 every 5th day I was going to low. So I stopped using it and tried Indolplex/DIM and yes I have a lot of labs done on it. One guy is taking about ratio's I don't care about ratio's I go by how I feel and in most cases the ratio is good and I feel bad. So you can't go by ratios or ranges for T levels I go by how I feel.

To me, controlling E2 is not the end of the story. We need also need to consider the other forms of Estrogen. The ratio I was referring to is the ratio of the "good" (2OHE) over the "bad" (16aOHE) forms of Estrogen. You may feel fine and have high levels of 16aOHE.

 

[pmgamer18]

To me, controlling E2 is not the end of the story. We need also need to consider the other forms of Estrogen. The ratio I was referring to is the ratio of the "good" (2OHE) over the "bad" (16aOHE) forms of Estrogen. You may feel fine and have high levels of 16aOHE.

What your talking about is new ground and there is not much on it Dr. Shippen is doing something with it but he has not said much on it. Only that he is looking into it. My Dr. feels taking Indolplex/DIM with Arimidex is good and they work good together. So I do both when needed but the primary thing I take is Indolplex/DIM. I am not going on TMG again not after what I went though.

 

[ciobl]

Wasn't there some work published comparing I-3-C to DIM over at LEF? I cannot remember where I read it, but it dispelled nearly all of Zelig's claims with regard to DIM, and especially his proprietary product.

Swale's position has its merits. From a medical perspective it is hard and almost impossible to take sides on delicate issues, specially when financial interests play a major role.
I remember reading on this board he praised Zelig's product over i-3-c at one time but it would be inappropiate to analyze the same without a critical scientific bias.

take care bros.

 

[cpeil2]

To me, controlling E2 is not the end of the story. We need also need to consider the other forms of Estrogen. The ratio I was referring to is the ratio of the "good" (2OHE) over the "bad" (16aOHE) forms of Estrogen. You may feel fine and have high levels of 16aOHE.

I was fiddling around on MEDLINE last night and read a little about the 2OHE/16aOHE ratio. One piece I read said that it is difficult to do much about 16aOHE and therefore optimizing the ratio meant getting 2OHE as high as possible.

 

[1cc]

Have you ever heard of a man getting a massive improvement in erectile response from an AI? A response so strong it's like he's a teenager again? I haven't. But I've talked with many men taking Indolplex/DIM who have.

This is interesting. Is it a fact that AI's do not improve erectile response, even though they decrease Estrogen?

 

[1cc]

Have you ever heard of a man getting a massive improvement in erectile response from an AI? A response so strong it's like he's a teenager again? I haven't. But I've talked with many men taking Indolplex/DIM who have.

I have used regular DIM before with some olive oil to aid absorption, and I must say that I had good results as mentioned above. The only problem was that I kept going too low on Estrogen and this was at only 50mg of DIM (which is a really tiny amount of powder to measure). This was gauged using the morning wood indicator.

The biggest problem with using DIM, is nailing down the right dosage, because you keep going from good wood to no wood, back to good wood, then back to no wood....etc.(because of E going too low and then recovering)

 

[ciobl]

This is interesting. Is it a fact that AI's do not improve erectile response, even though they decrease Estrogen?

that's because it does not decrease estrogen like AIs. clomid has worked for some guys and the anti-estrogen steroidal aromasin is worth to look at.

A response so strong it's like he's a teenager again?

I am one of those men with indolplex/dim, no doubt !

I found this DIM FAQ.

pm I hear you bro. but with all respect i could fill up your hard drive with that kind of advertising. I have found plenty of those.

I just don't want to be a certain product biased consumer produced by their ingenious ways they utilize to promote a particular investment. i want to play catcher but don't want the ball to break my teeth...and im not going to let an inclination towards something, it don't matter how popular it is, to inhibit my impartiality.

bros, so how about if we complicate this some more with medical papers behind it ?

for example:

this data suggests that Dim may also promote hepatocarcinogenesis by estrogenic mechanisms. ( tried to upload it but size is limited to 1.9 mb )

www.emt.orst.edu/faculty/pdfs/bailey/Toxicogenomic2005.pdf

anti-carcinogenic properties of indole-3-carbinol.

results indicate dim exhibits promising cancer protective activities but relatively little is known about the mechanism by which dim inhibits growth of cancer cells.


take care bros

 

[DavidZ]

I have used regular DIM before with some olive oil to aid absorption, and I must say that I had good results as mentioned above. The only problem was that I kept going too low on Estrogen and this was at only 50mg of DIM (which is a really tiny amount of powder to measure). This was gauged using the morning wood indicator.

The biggest problem with using DIM, is nailing down the right dosage, because you keep going from good wood to no wood, back to good wood, then back to no wood....etc.(because of E going too low and then recovering)

Agreed.

The optimium window for E2 is very, very small.

But don't you have the exact same problem with AIs? The only difference being that you don't have the erectile response (and other responses) as an indicator. That means that men on AI are less likely to set their dosages as accurately as men on Indolplex/DIM.

Since E2 is VITALLY imoprtant to a man's health, that just another added benefit of Indolplex/DIM. Although it does explain why it's so hard to get the dosage right. You've got a much more accurate gauge.

 

[ciobl]

That means that men on AI are less likely to set their dosages as accurately as men on Indolplex/DIM.

David since when men on indolplex have a chance to accurately set their dosages ? by how they feel ? that would be one of the most arcaic ways to measure something.

Since E2 is VITALLY imoprtant to a man's health, that just another added benefit of Indolplex/DIM. Although it does explain why it's so hard to get the dosage right. You've got a much more accurate gauge.

e2 is vital indeed David, but the bunch of labs are pointing out to another direction.
check around and you'll only find labs and more studies clouding the whole situation whereas aromatase inhibitors and others have been around for decades and you know that.

Your intentions seem good and I hope you prove me wrong, not through here with words floating around but with my own health. Unfortunately right now with what I have experienced with dim ( the good and the bad ) would be very careful by making a final decision jeopardizing my health on the long run.

take care bro.

 

[HeadDoc]

About 2 months ago, I tried TMG based upon comments in this forum. After about 3 days, I stopped taking it because I was getting high E2 symptoms.

I suspected back then that TMG somehow interferes with the action of Indolplex/DIM. Phil's experience confirms my observation.

David, I wonder if the results that you got "E2 like symptoms" are a result of combining the TMG with your specific TRT protocol. The symptoms as we've discussed can occur with either too high or too low estrogen. Part of the positive contribution of HCG to a TRT protocol is thru its influence on pregnenolone. If the TMG was blocking or eradicating the pregnenolone loop in the process, you could be feeling pretty crappy (yes, I know that is not exactly a DSM-IV term).

 

[pmgamer18]

Swale's position has its merits. From a medical perspective it is hard and almost impossible to take sides on delicate issues, specially when financial interests play a major role.
I remember reading on this board he praised Zelig's product over i-3-c at one time but it would be inappropiate to analyze the same without a critical scientific bias.

take care bros.

Lef wanted Zelig to go in business they could not come to a agreement and Zelig said no and Lef started attacking him for this. And SWALE knows what this feels like.

 

[1cc]

If the TMG was blocking or eradicating the pregnenolone loop in the process, you could be feeling pretty crappy (yes, I know that is not exactly a DSM-IV term).

Does TMG interfere with pregnenolone?

I would have thought that TMG would be pretty harmless and usefull, in small amounts, because it is a methyl donor. It also does however increase SAMe, which may be undesireable for some people.

Here's some info on TMG:

"TMG, TriMethylGlycine, aka betaine base, a natural metabolic product of choline, is a methyl donor which lowers levels of plaque-forming homocysteine and raises levels of SAMe, a powerful antidepressant and anti-arthritis substance. In the liver, TMG helps metabolize fat, and increases detoxifying liver enzymes and antioxidant glutathione levels. After giving up a methyl group, it turns into antiaging sports nutrient DMG. In farm animals, TMG is used to decrease fat and increase meat production. Suggested daily dose is 500-1500mg with other anti-homocysteine nutrients: B6, B12, folic acid, & choline. People with depression or liver disease take up to 6 grams a day safely."

 

[HeadDoc]

my observation was more speculative than anything else. It would mean that the hcg is being affected as a part of second pass phenomenon in the liver or elsewhere.

 

[1cc]

FYI, I used TMG for a while, and I can't say I felt any noticeable side effect from using it.

 

[pmgamer18]

I am not going to use it anymore. Shit I was doing dam good and should have left it alone. You know what they say don't fix it until it's broken.

 

[DavidZ]

David, I wonder if the results that you got "E2 like symptoms" are a result of combining the TMG with your specific TRT protocol. The symptoms as we've discussed can occur with either too high or too low estrogen. Part of the positive contribution of HCG to a TRT protocol is thru its influence on pregnenolone. If the TMG was blocking or eradicating the pregnenolone loop in the process, you could be feeling pretty crappy (yes, I know that is not exactly a DSM-IV term).

When I tried TMG, I added it to my regular protocol. I intended to use the usual scientific method that Shippen taught me so well, which was to hold the dosage for 2 or 3 weeks and then get blood tests.

But when I noticed the high E2 symptoms come on so quickly, I knew things were going in the wrong direction and stopped taking TMG immediately. I suspected that the TMG was interfering with the action of the Indolplex/DIM, but wasn't sure. It would have been nice to have some blood tests at that point, but the trial wasn't long enough (or successful enough) to justify blood tests.

When Phil posted his TMG results, that confirmed what I had suspected.

What exactly is going on here is not entirely clear. But one thing is clear. I'm not taking TMG anymore.

 

[DavidZ]

David since when men on indolplex have a chance to accurately set their dosages ? by how they feel ? that would be one of the most arcaic ways to measure something.

I'm a strong believer and proponent of applying the scientific method with blood tests as a core component. Whenever I try out a new protocol, I start with my baseline protocol, add the new component to my protocol, keep my new protocol constant for 2 to 3 weeks, and get before and after blood tests. The blood tests and my clinical responses (i.e., how I feel on the new propotcol) are then evaluated. Shippen taught me this procedure and I'm very grateful for his mentoring.

I keep extensive records of my protocols and blood tests and refer to them frequently. Here are about 50 of my blood tests taken over the last 5 and a half years that demonstrate the effectiveness of Indolplex/DIM.

Date, T, E2, T/E2 Ratio

03/03/00 1303 101 12.9
03/21/00 595 69 8.6
04/29/00 753 72 10.5
06/05/00 463 38 12.2
08/09/00 795 81 9.8
09/16/00 981 91 10.8
10/09/00 494 50 9.9
11/11/00 1144 76 15.1
12/04/00 471 54 8.7
01/13/01 638 78 8.2
01/29/01 503 52 9.7
02/17/01 906 61 14.9 Started Chrysin (transdermal)
03/22/01 910 43 21.2
04/14/01 874 61 14.3
05/19/01 587 58 10.1 Ended Chrysin (transdermal)
07/02/01 1202 47 25.6 Started Indolplex/DIM
08/02/01 829 40 20.7
09/22/01 708 39 18.2
12/01/01 782 55 14.2
02/23/02 895 40 22.4
05/18/02 696 55 12.7
07/27/02 889 30 29.6
08/24/02 1202 71 16.9
10/05/02 534 38 14.1
12/07/02 1115 80 13.9
03/08/03 791 51 15.5
04/19/03 762 42 18.1
05/17/03 713 38 18.8
06/28/03 460 30 15.3
07/26/03 703 49 14.3
12/27/03 851 35 24.3
03/06/04 776 40 19.4
05/22/04 823 40 20.6
07/24/04 690 39 17.7
09/29/04 812 46 17.7
02/26/05 605 21 28.8
03/26/05 607 21 28.9
04/26/05 682 39 17.5
05/31/05 639 36 17.8
08/11/05 620 45 13.8
09/28/05 661 30 22.0

Blood tests, however, have their limitations, particularly when controlling E2. The time interval between having blood drawn and getting results is far too long for E2 management purposes. Therefore, by necessity, I have developed a set of high and low E2 symptoms over the years that allow me to respond very quickly to my E2 level. The blood tests now serve to confirm or contradict my subjective observations.

As I explain in my primer sticky is some detail, this process is not easy and is by no means for everyone. But it works for me and I'm glad to share it with others to use or not use as they wish.

 

[HeadDoc]

do you ever monitor your homocystein levels? TMG and the other methyl donors help maintain a healthy level. There are other methyl donors which might be better suited for you. Folic acid at @800 mg daily.

 

[DavidZ]

do you ever monitor your homocysteine levels? TMG and the other methyl donors help maintain a healthy level. There are other methyl donors which might be better suited for you. Folic acid at @800 mg daily.

Shippen alerted me to homocysteine during my first visit with him in 1999. In Oct 1999 (before starting HCG) my homocysteine was boarderline at 9.0 (<9.0). In Aug 2000 it went down to 7.5 (5.4 11.9) and in March 2001 it was 6.67 (5 - 15).

IIRC, Shippen said that increasing T would bring down homocysteine levels. Also, I take a daily vitamin that includes B vitamins and folic acid which is the standard for reducing homocysteine levels.

 

[stat1951]

I have been using a product that contains DIM, I3C, and DMG but I have not tried Indolplex/DIM. Depending on how much you have to take, the Indolplex/DIM is not the cheapest thing on the planet and I can't seem to find a definitive suggested dosage as a starting point. Based on the article that is on the website that pmgamer18 posted, Dr. Zeligs himself seems to suggest that at least 3-5 mg/kg/day should be used for E control. You and others seem to be saying it works with much lower doses...at least as far as erectile function goes.

Exactly Smitty.

Go to Dr. Zeligs' web site: http://www.dimfaq.com/index.htm and e-mail them about recommended doses, etc. They are generally pretty good with responding (for example they will explain to you that IndolPlex was their intial patented brand name but that they have since made the same patented product available - for a price - to several other manufacturers).