My (Not So Good) Experience With TMG

[ciobl]

Thanks, ciobl. Where do you see that statistic?

You're welcome.

if you embark yourself on a search with the same graciously manner as you have debated your meticulous points of view based on experience and clinical observations since your very first appearance on the meso board a string of syntaxes will provide a high number of posts not only asking for the same protocol you have followed with good results which is the same as the personal aforementioned experimental observation highlighting your very own personal records and lab work you contributed to the internet community that might not be visibly accountable with the same chronological order on a user-friendly graphic environment participants on this kind of medium are familiarized themselves with; indeed closely related with the very own familiar number of syntaxes computer programmers have satisfactorily embark themselves with the same graciously manner as you have in the past by providing a wonderful interaction that have benefited users alike that have asked for the same and the only proof left would be on the remotely cache of hidden files or on the memory of some of these members asking for your primer.....

 

[pmgamer18]

Hay everyone all is good here and you all are good bro's. And Larry I re-read your post an 6 members of my family read it. They feel I over reacted and owe you an apology Sorry. Have to go get a blood test and shot now feel like shit and need the shot. I will try to get my 4-OHE tested today. But I don't see my DR. so we will see how far I get with the lab tech.

 

[ciobl]

That was a very nice statement, but actually incorrect.

not incorrect, correct; see above ( could provide references i know you guys trust me )
take care bros.

 

[pmgamer18]

Gamer--Have you had your 4-OHE levels tested?

After reading through stat's post, I think he has provided the real reasons for your experience.

The lab is checking into testing my 4-OHE Biotech in Farmington Hill, MI. Not sure they can do it. Here is a link on the action of DIM and the E's.
http://www.dimfaq.com/site/diagram.htm
From the diagram it looks like DIM does not convert much into 4-OHE if the diagram is right.

 

[DavidZ]

The far right column of the forum is titled "views" and records how many viewings that thread has received. The top three "most frequently visited ratings" posted...

The "view" counter is not a measure of frequency because my stickies have only been up there for a month or two, while others have been up there for a year or more. In other words, a sticky that's been up for a year is expected to have 12 times the number of views that a sticky that's only been up for a month would, assuming that both have the same frequency of views.

Also, I noticed that the view counter doesn't increment each time I view a thread. Therefore, either the view counter is (a) delayed, (b) unreliable, or (c) counting in a very different way than you and I think it does.

With regard to frequency, if ciobl would provide us with his reference or would otherwise translate his explanation , perhaps we could all learn something new.

 

[ciobl]

With regard to frequency, if ciobl would provide us with his reference or would otherwise translate his explanation , perhaps we could all learn something new.

references must be requested a week in advance

your latter request is granted !

?? ???????. ???? ?? embark ?? ?????? ? ????? ?? graciously ???????, ?? ?? debated ???? ???????? ?????? ??????? ?????????? ?? ????? ? ??????????? ?????????? ? ???? ???? ??? ???? very first ????????????? ?? ????? meso ???? ??????????? ?????? ??????? ?????????? ??????? not only ????? ????? ?? ???????? ?? ?????????? ?? ? ???????????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ????????????? ???????????????? ???????? ????????? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ?????????? ? ?????? ??????????? ?? ????????????? ? ????????? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ?????????? ? ????? ?? ??????????????? ??????? ?? ?????????? user-friendly ??????????? ?????????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ???????? ??????????? ?; ????????????? ?????? ???????? ? ????? ?????? ???????? ????? ??????????? ????????????, ????? ????? ???????????????? embark ? ????? ?? graciously ??????? ?? ?????? ? ??????? ????? ???????????? ???????? ?????????????? ???????? ???????????? alike ????????? ??? ?? ? ???????????? ?????????????? ?????? ?????????? ?? ?? ???????????? ??????? ?????????? ??????? ??? ?? ?????? ????????? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ???? primer.....

that's russian tambien pudiera traducirte en espanol si la peticion es hecha con su necesario tiempo de anticipacion.

 

[SWALE]

Wow, Larry! THAT is one of the most outstanding posts I have ever read.

 

[DavidZ]

Larry and Swale -- You're both missing the point of this thread.

This thread is not about the merits of taking TMG.

This thread is about whether or not TMG interferes with the action of Indolplex/DIM.

Swale - do you think that once Phil stablizes his protocol, if he were to start taking TMG once again, that he would NOT experience the same adverse effects again? Is that your opinion?

 

[pmgamer18]

The term "4-OHE levels" sparked a thought and some recall of previous research I had done...

Not sure if you are aware of a Doctor David Zava, but he spoke at an anti aging conference in Las Vegas in the Winter of 1998. Interestingly, Dr Shippen also spoke at that same conference.

A little background on Dr. Zava:

Dr.David Zava is a biochemist with extensive experience in breast cancer research and internationally known speaker on breast cancer and hormone replacement therapy... During the past 25 years Dr. Zava has published extensively on basic and clinical research relating to the effects of hormonal balance on breast cancer... Dr. Zava earned his Ph.D. in biochemistry at the University of Tennessee in 1974 and did his post-doctoralwork at the University of Texas. He did conventional research with breast cancer cell lines at the University of Texas, San Antonio, and became proficient in performing the receptor assay to determine whether breast tumors are estrogen positive or negative. This is information that can determine a breast cancer patient's course of treatment... Dr. Zava was hired by the Ludwig Institute at the University of Bern, Switzerland, where he headed a large international clinical study investigating the effectiveness of chemotherapy and Tamoxifen... For both breast and prostate cancers,he ties together the importance of hormonal balance and the biologicalorigins of cancer, providing a realistic, simple and rational strategy for prevention based on intelligent choices of natural (bioidentical) hormone therapies, healthy foods and exercise.

Anyway, I noted these comments from the anti aging conference at that time:

Multiple hormonal abnormalities are usually seen in hormone-dependent cancers. David Zava, Ph.D., pointed out that breast cancer patients often consume a diet heavy in refined carbohydrates, which leads to excess insulin and obesity. Excess insulin induces an abnormally large number of estrogen receptors in the breast tissue, while the excess body fat keeps producing extra estrogens... Dr. Zava explained that estradiol itself is not carcinogenic. It is one of its metabolites-4-hydroxyestrone-that is potentially mutagenic. 4-hydroxyestrone can either be methylated and thus rendered harmless, or it can be further oxidized to quinones, which can damage DNA. Pollutants, stress hormones and the easily oxidizable polyunsaturated fats (from sources such as corn oil) lead to increased production of quinones. Protection is provided by methylating agents (such as TMG, folic acid & vitamin B12)...

As pointed out in the following separate study (which has been posted a couple of times previously with minimal comment):

2,3,7,8-Tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin and diindolylmethanes differentially induce cytochrome P450 1A1, 1B1, and 19 in H295R human adrenocortical carcinoma cells.

Sanderson JT, Slobbe L, Lansbergen GW, Safe S, van den Berg M. - Research Institute for Toxicology, Utrecht University, P.O. Box 80176, 3508 TD Utrecht, The Netherlands. Published in Toxicol Sci. 2001 May;61(1):40-8.

...DIM and various structural analogs were examined in H295R cells for effects on 3 cytochrome P450 (CYP) enzymes involved in estrogen synthesis and/or metabolism: CYP1A1, CYP1B1, and CYP19 (aromatase)... DIM, but not TCDD, induced aromatase activity with an apparently maximal 2-fold increase at 10 microM; higher concentrations of DIM and many of its analogs were cytotoxic... DIM (3 microM) significantly increased mRNA levels for all three CYPS: DIM analogs with substitutions on the 5 and 5' position (3 microM) induced aromatase and EROD activity, together with mRNA levels of CYP1A1, 1B1, and 19; analogs that were substituted on the central carbon of the methane group showed little or no inductive activity toward the CYPS: In conclusion, DIM and several of its analogs appear to induce CYPs via multiple yet distinct pathways in H295R human adrenocortical carcinoma cells.

The CYP1B1 enzyme makes 4-hydroxyestrone, which, like 16-alpha-hydroxyestrone, is genotoxic, mutagenic and procarcinogenic. (A quote from SWALE - LOL)

Anyway...

The way estrogen is metabolized in your body may also be a factor... There are three pathways by which estrogen can be metabolized in your body. They have long, complicated names, so let's just call them the 2-OH, 4-OH, and the 16-OH pathways. 2-OH is called the "good estrogen" because if your estrogen is metabolized down that road it seems to prevent cancer. 4-OH and 16-OH seem to be cancer-causing pathways. In one study (for example), women who developed Breast Cancer had lots of 16-OH and very little 2-OH... Methylation is a process by which chemical methyl groups are connected to your DNA. Methylation is important because it is a process that repairs and stabilizes DNA. Methylation is also important because cancer cells seem to have a lower level of methylation than normal cells. Methlyation also helps make more of the 2-OH "good estrogen" and makes "bad estrogens" like 16-OH less active. Nutrients such as... Folate, Vitamin B12, Zinc, a form of Betaine called Trimethylglycine... help in the methylation process.

Some additional information regarding positive effects of methylation:

To maintain a strong, healthy body, especially when supplementing with testosterone, it is necessary to continuously detoxicate normal metabolic poisons including harmful hormonal metabolites. Furthermore, it is absolutely necessary to minimize the accumulation of environmental chemicals that are poisoning us. Environmental estrogen mimics are the leading cause of the rising rates of prostate cancer in men and breast cancer in women.
A great many of these harmful chemical can be detoxicated at the cellular level and by the liver for excretion in urine, feces and sweat using the following array of chemical supplements:

* Sulfation: glutathione precursors (glutamic acid, cysteine and glycine), methyl sulfonyl methane (MSM)....
* Methylation: ...trimethylglycine (TMG), dimethylaminoethanol (DMAE)...
* Glucuronidation: ...calcium-D-glucarate.
* Acetylation: acetic acid (vinegar).
* Acylation: glycine, glutamine, taurine.

Also...

From the book: "The Hormone of Desire: The Truth about Testosterone, Sexuality and Menopause" by Susan Rako, M.D., Three Rivers Press....

I3C at 400 mg per day will reduce estrogen dominance. Also take: ...B12, Folic Acid, SAM-e or Trimethylglycine (TMG). These nutritional factors promote methylation of 4-Catechol-Estrone to a benign form.

Finally...

There is an important footnote to this wonderful news about TMG. Many life extension practitioners have been taking massive doses of vitamin B-6 (pyridoxine) because it also neutralizes the pro-oxidant homocysteine, converting it to the important antioxidant cystathione. The August 25,1983 issue of The New England Journal of Medicine documented cases in which severe sensory nerve damage occurred in humans as a result of using very large daily dosages of B-6 for periods of 4-40 months. If one is trying to keep homocysteine levels down, it is better to take lower doses of B-6 supplements and use TMG... to assist in neutralizing homocysteine.

Larry

Well that sums it up now we know what SWALE was taking about. I am not sure what to do. I did not crash going down on the HCG yet could tell this morning I need the shot I got today. I am not doing TMG now have not for 4 weeks and my E2 has stabilized and is staying in the zone just using Indolplex/DIM. On my test today 4-OHE will be tested, DHT, E2 and Total E along with the T's. I guess I will just wait until the tests come back in two weeks. Dam good Job Thanks Larry.

 

[ciobl]

Larry and Swale -- You're both missing the point of this thread.

totally agree

This thread is not about the merits of taking TMG.

This thread is about whether or not TMG interferes with the action of Indolplex/DIM.

Just in time before the usual soap filled drama let me point out:

the antagonistic views
overwhelmingly
expressed with a certain degree of medical quackery craft should not solely reach a conclusion based on abstract scientifical data over empirical facts that started the thread with the addition of tmg to dim formulations. It becomes an inconclusive decision furthermore to determine a solution since the empiric observations to consequences after the tmg addition to a formula undergoing numerous medical trials variably offer a chance of fruitful resolution specially on a scientific level that must apply the same medical quackery interpretational craft as a science to any empirical fact.

 

[HeadDoc]

there is no conclusion about tmg from all of this? Nothing to indicate a negative interaction between dim and tmg? Or does there only appear to be a relationship between indoplex/dim and tmg? I'd never seen in the lit or heard of a negative interaction as I understood their actions are independent.

 

[DavidZ]

there is no conclusion about tmg from all of this? Nothing to indicate a negative interaction between dim and tmg? Or does there only appear to be a relationship between indoplex/dim and tmg?

It looks like Phil and I are convinced that TMG interferes with the action of Indolplex/DIM, while Swale and Larry cannot accept that premise.

I don't think further debate will change people's minds on that issue.

As to whether TMG interferes with DIM, I don't think one can argue that follows logically from Phil and my experiences, although it does raise the question, doesn't it?

I'd never seen in the lit or heard of a negative interaction as I understood their actions are independent.

I would be very surprised to find this question addressed in the literature since it's such an arcane issue.

 

[SWALE]

That is because you have presented no evidence "TMG interferes with the actions of DIM" whatsoever. Not one shred which stands up to any scientific scrutiny.

 

[SWALE]

I would suspect with all the experts looking into the use of these two supplements, as well as countless tens of thousands of people taking them,
if this interaction were a popular one, it would have shown up by now. I've just not heard of it before, either in my own practice, or amongst hours of lectures by professionals.

 

[DavidZ]

That is because you have presented no evidence "TMG interferes with the actions of DIM" whatsoever. Not one shred which stands up to any scientific scrutiny.

Swale - do you think that once Phil stablizes his protocol, if he were to start taking TMG once again, that he would NOT experience the same adverse effects again? Is that your opinion?

 

[pmgamer18]

I know there are a lot of different kinds of DIM out there and some of the ones I tried 2 yrs. ago that did not work have changed. I have talked to some men at the H2 group that say the kind that cost less did not work will until they took them with Olive Oil then they worked dam good. I feel I need to be clear on what I am taking about I am not saying that TMG does not work with DIM to wash out the bad E's that get converted. I am saying TMG and Indolplex don't mix well. And if my 4-OHE comes back high then I need to try a different DIM with TMG.
Here is a cut & paste of a post from the H2 group.

From: "Dave " <daultman@...>
Date: Mon Nov 14, 2005 7:48 pm
Subject: RE: [Hypogonadism] Re: E2 Level that is best-Dan & Retro fefynedd
Send IM
Send Email
Hmmm...then I must be really overdosing on this stuff that I take.
Taking 6 capsules per day of Natures' Way DIM-plus, which is 100mg of
BioResponse DIM per 2 capsules. The bottle says normal male dose, 2
capsules per day, "intense use" 4 capsules per day. Since I had a
serious E2 problem, and Dr John said take 300mg, taking 6 just seemed
logical.

I've been doing it for weeks at this dose, actually, two months
now...and it's not brought me crashing down as others describe.

Still, it's expensive at this much for the BioResponse stuff...I
wouldn't mind taking a little olive oil with regular DIM to save some
money.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: hypogonadism2@yahoogroups.com
>[mailto:hypogonadism2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of invest99_2000
>Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 4:32 PM
>To: hypogonadism2@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Hypogonadism] Re: E2 Level that is best-Dan & Retro
>
>
>Dave,
>
>Your doctor is recommending 300mg of regular DIM, which does not
>absorb well. In order to make regular DIM absorb well, take it with
>something oily, like olive oil(which is how some guys here take it).
>The regular DIM is very cheap and can be gotten at
>www.beyond-a- century.com, or you can get the source naturals
>tablets. If you do
>take it with olive oil, the DIM will become much more absorbable and
>you will need much less than 300mg.
>
>If you don't want to do the above, then you can take Phytopharmica
>Indolplex DIM, which has already been formulated to be much more
>absorbable. Some guys taking this only take 1/4 tablet.
>
>You can also search the group for "DIM OLIVE OIL", and you should
>pick up a lot more information about this.
>
>George
>
>
>--- In hypogonadism2@yahoogroups.com, "Dave " <daultman@s...> wrote:
>>
>> Hey, help me with my DIM calculations: If the product Phil is using
>> says 120mg per pill, and the label says that it's 25% DIM...does
>that
>> mean that each tablet contains 30mg DIM? And if so, would that
>mean to
>> get 300mg of DIM (per my doc's instructions), I would have to take
>10
>> pills per day..?!?!?!?!
>>

 

[stat1951]

Hay everyone all is good here and you all are good bro's. And Larry I re-read your post an 6 members of my family read it. They feel I over reacted and owe you an apology Sorry. Have to go get a blood test and shot now feel like shit and need the shot. I will try to get my 4-OHE tested today. But I don't see my DR. so we will see how far I get with the lab tech.

No problem.

You know that I absolutely hope that things work out well for you and your situation... as well as ALL of the Bros on the Board!

A little off-topic here (but I'm done with this thread anyway - LOL), but what about possibly getting a comprehensive cortisol testing done via a 24-hr UFC (Urinary Free Cortisol) test?

I have a number of symptoms - including anxiety that flares high at times and significant insomnia (with some nights of high anxiety waking me up even with sleep aids)... and it turns out to not have anything to do with T levels of E2 levels or Total Es, etc.... it's that damn elevated cortisol...

Just a thought, Bro...

Hang in there!

Will catch you on a different thread somewhere I'm sure!



Larry

 

[SWALE]

Or, you could take it with your fish oil.

 

[1cc]

DavidZ,

One major benefit of TMG is increasing Glutathione levels in the liver. If the liver was all of a sudden functioning much better, it could be possible that it would start to eliminate Estrogen more efficiently. Is it possible that it may have lowered Estrogen because of better liver function and that is the big difference you felt?

 

[The_Skeptic]

Well I went out and bought TMG tonight and took 2000 mgs along with 200 mg of DIM as directed by the respective bottles.

Then I saw this tread and read through the entire hodgepodge hoping to get some answers, but ended more confused than ever. However, I did gain some insight on the various personalities on this forum.

But now I think I need a drink.