Old guy returns to cycle - gentle recommendations

[Dang-1]

Hi all,

I’ve lurked for a bit here and figured I would just post and see what kinda advice I might get. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

HISTORY
Previous cycles are all from 2 decades ago. 1 just dbol. 3 Tren. That’s it but at my biggest I was 235 at 15%. No sides experienced on any.

Current Condition
Overall current condition 6’2 176 10-12% BF 45years old. Considered very lean by most and I really only look buff when I’m actually lifting and I’m basically all leg and back muscle naturally.

3 decades in the gym has really crafted a Gym routine that is solid focused on strength and movement and I’ve gotten natural gains with creatine and my current routine is:

WORKOUT
Everything is 8 sets of 6-8 reps focus on core movers with polishing exercises not included in the list. Warm up is 1.5-2 miles at 10 min speed or this weird stair elliptical trainer

Shoulders- lunges - monster walks
Chest triceps
Bulgarian- monster walk
Upper back biceps
Deadlift

FOOD
I’m keto so every meal is protein and fat focused. I mostly eat whey, chicken and lean pork but toss in red meat sometimes. Fats are lots of avocado, olive, nuts, etc… carbs are veggies of any lower carb versions. No grains, sugars, starches, etc…

5-6 meals a day every 3-4 hours.
40 gram protein 160cal
30 gram fat. 270cal
5-10 gram carb 40cal

2,,350 - 2,820 cal day

Health/BLOOD work
My BP numbers are 110/60
Resting is 55
Test ect is normal
HDL is supper low genetically as in bellow 20 for some reason but my LDL is also supper low. I’m trying to specifically avoid HDL drops.

GOALs
I want to get to 8% but when I hit it last time (168 lbs) everything shrunk and I felt like crap. My gym time just sucked but intermittent fasting was a culprit as well. My goal is real gentle health focus on movement and strength with maybe 180-190 at 8% as my end goal.

SIDE Goal
I really like the anti-aging benifits of GH and that is part of why I’m focused on its inclusion

Cycle concepts
(Feedback wanted)

Cycle concept #1—- 1 - 12 weeks
Test E - 300-500 week?
Aromasin - just to have on hand or?
Armidex - just to have on hand or?
Proviron - maybe added??
NPP - 100-300 week?
GH - 2 day/ 14 week

Break 8 weeks
HCG - 4000 week/
Nolvadex ??
GH - 2 day/14 week/

Cycle concept #2—8 weeks
Primo - 300-600 week?
Sustenon - 250-500 week?
Aromasin - just to have on hand or?
Armidex - just to have on hand or?
GH 2-3 day/21 week

 

[Rockyroad]

My body responds better to sust, I’m on it now with var. 500mg sust twice a week. I can’t do npp, makes me eat everything in the kitchen. Aromasin is easier and works better for me. On sust I don’t have sides like I do with straight test. Good to have on hand always. Hcg I use it 4 weeks prior to start of pct. Primo & gh can’t advise, never used. Nolvadex and Clomid is your pct. Clomid makes me feel like shit, but does the job. Hope this helps

 

[Dang-1]

Thank you for the feedback ! here is an update with my current labs and further thoughts:

Test is 714
SHBG 65.8
Free test CIA 98
Cholesterol 115
Triglycerides 54
HDL 35
LDL 69

So my concern is that my natural level is very high even after my 5 cycles in my 20s. Supposedly better than 20 year old athletes but I do take aswanda, d asparatic acid and shilajit; I just can’t imagine these supplements are boosting me that much.

I did follow a PCT way back on my old cycles then but only for 1 cycle. I’m training hard now and I’m seeing tiny gains but not in weigh just overall appearance using just creatine cycling. Weight gain hard mass just doesn’t happen for me anymore I just get stronger and more ripped as my body comp shifts by really tiny increments.

Based on all my reading a cycle like I’m proposing (test e, mast e) would toss me into the 3000 range! Here is the concept:

HGH is really sounding good for a 12-24 week run at 2-3 per day

Test e maybe 100-150 2x week? 200-300 total week/ 12 week run

Mast e maybe 100 - 200 2x week? 200-400 week total/ 12 week run

PCT - aromasin (maybe in cycle if needed bloods would determine )
HCG - post cycle reboot method - 1 month after or when blood work identifies
Nolvadex - three week method

Still would love some educated feedback!

My big questions:

1. Just do HGH and forgo the Test/mast and see what happens?

2. Go with the plan above but shift doses?

3. Some other sage wisdom on something I missed.

Thank you in advance

 

[Dang-1]

Update

I started out at 300/300 test E and Mast E with every third day pin. HGH 2 IU split into two doses a day. I’m on my 12th day and up 10lbs! it appears to be mostly water from my sudden stop of Keto after 2 years of no carbs, things like Quinoa and brown rice are a bit of a shock to my system. I’m also having to completely drop salt since on keto you need a bunch more than normal and that’s not helping with the water. I’m aiming for 200-300 grams carbs a day to start with. The water retention makes it really hard to tell what’s going on, I feel like I went from 10-11% to 14-15% in 12 days looking in the mirror. So here are my thoughts:

1. I think taking the mast E up a notch will help with water and that was my plan so maybe start week 3 off with 300 test and 400 mast a week. I had thought I might keep increasing the mast e over time to a max of 500 week. Thoughts?

 

[Burly]

You are not that old. How's your bloodwork ?

I'm on 3.6iu GH ED
200mg Test, 150mg primo EW.

What BF are you on now ?
You can try pin EOD, drink 4L water every day and not skip salt. You need sodium and potassium when you drink more water than regular people do

 

[Fattyone]

Update

I started out at 300/300 test E and Mast E with every third day pin. HGH 2 IU split into two doses a day. I’m on my 12th day and up 10lbs! it appears to be mostly water from my sudden stop of Keto after 2 years of no carbs, things like Quinoa and brown rice are a bit of a shock to my system. I’m also having to completely drop salt since on keto you need a bunch more than normal and that’s not helping with the water. I’m aiming for 200-300 grams carbs a day to start with. The water retention makes it really hard to tell what’s going on, I feel like I went from 10-11% to 14-15% in 12 days looking in the mirror. So here are my thoughts:

1. I think taking the mast E up a notch will help with water and that was my plan so maybe start week 3 off with 300 test and 400 mast a week. I had thought I might keep increasing the mast e over time to a max of 500 week. Thoughts?

You just made a TON of changes in a short amount of time. If it were me, I’d leave everything as is for a little longer and let your body even itself out. You also haven’t even reached steady state with the drugs so there’s zero reason to be upping them again.

 

[Dang-1]

Thanks Fatty1

I was also just thinking let it ride a bit since I won’t have full saturation till week 3 from my reading. In all I introduced 4 variables at once and I can’t tell what is the cause of anything right now, which is frustrating.

The keto sudden stop is probably the single largest variable as it’s almost been 2 years of keto. I did get really used to being 10%bf and it’s a shocking hit to my ego to not see all my abs, which is pretty dumb but that’s me.

How long should I give it before changing anything?

 

[Canuck83]

You are not that old. How's your bloodwork ?

I'm on 3.6iu GH ED
200mg Test, 150mg primo EW.

What BF are you on now ?
You can try pin EOD, drink 4L water every day and not skip salt. You need sodium and potassium when you drink more water than regular people do

This right here, personally I think primo works much better for long term use with virtually no sides, I run 200 test/200 primo. Are you using pharma or generic GH ?

 

[Dang-1]

Thanks for the feedback as this was needed.

Turn out a bit more research and it sounds like 5-10lbs water gain in 2 weeks is normal once your over 100 grams a day being that each carbohydrate gram binds to 3 grams water before stuffing itself in your muscles. The bloat is water and some extra muscle and fat it’s just unsettling to see a lb a day for 2 weeks when I expected to see 2-4. I’m gonna stay the course for a bit and let it develop.

I probably also committed the rookie mistake of introducing to many carbs to fast and really to many variables at once. I’m quickly reestablishing normal eating so I didn’t loose to much time.

My GH is generic from a well know source here with good hplc results. And yes I debated primo/sustonon for my return run but picked masteron/test instead. I seem to be responding well with strength gain but this water just threw me for a loop.

 

[Burly]

This right here, personally I think primo works much better for long term use with virtually no sides, I run 200 test/200 primo. Are you using pharma or generic GH ?

Sandoz mate

 

[lamehack]

i'm 44, also on keto (carnivore leaning). what I noticed that your body can't take a whole lot the older you get. what works best for me is T propionate. I am on TRT, at 30mg/daily injections. I would blast and ramp it 60mg/daily for weeks at a time. the benefit of a short half life ester like Tprop is that you can make quick up or down adjustment if your dose is bad. I tried that with Tcyp and for some reasons I got massive anxiety, and it takes 1 week to ride it out. but same dose prop i feel ok. i think steady levels are not good. you want some fluctuations during the day

 

[Burly]

i'm 44, also on keto (carnivore leaning). what I noticed that your body can't take a whole lot the older you get. what works best for me is T propionate. I am on TRT, at 30mg/daily injections. I would blast and ramp it 60mg/daily for weeks at a time. the benefit of a short half life ester like Tprop is that you can make quick up or down adjustment if your dose is bad. I tried that with Tcyp and for some reasons I got massive anxiety, and it takes 1 week to ride it out. but same dose prop i feel ok. i think steady levels are not good. you want some fluctuations during the day

Try Cyp or E and your blood is even better than on Prop ED.
7x30mg = 210mg TestoP, and de ester weight is less of prop. 100mg have roughly 83mg testo. so you get even more test in your blood weekly than a person who does 210mg Cyp EW. Undecanoate is even better on longtime TRT

 

[lamehack]

Try Cyp or E and your blood is even better than on Prop ED.
7x30mg = 210mg TestoP, and de ester weight is less of prop. 100mg have roughly 83mg testo. so you get even more test in your blood weekly than a person who does 210mg Cyp EW. Undecanoate is even better on longtime TRT

i feel a lot better on Prop then Cyp or E. tried all of them. can't do cyp cycles either. steady levels don't work for me.

 

[Canuck83]

i feel a lot better on Prop then Cyp or E. tried all of them. can't do cyp cycles either. steady levels don't work for me.

Same I use prop ed feel much better

 

[Dang-1]

We’ll update is I’m thinking I might have really high E2 but would like feedback. I’m only on day 17 of the cycle but I’ve never used Test E or Mast E before so I don’t have a baseline. I did read up and know that mast e only masks high E2 but doesn’t drop it like EQ and Primo so my concept is that I’m a heavy aromitizer and the 300 mg test E is spiking my E2 way up.

Here’s what I’ve noticed:
Trouble sleeping kinda restlessness especially after 3am
Sensitive nipples one even sticks out a bit when hard which happens more often now
Water gain like a bunch maybe 9-10lb of what I put on, face is bloated looking
Erections happen but then go soft easy not really interested so my libido is kinda trashed
Balls are high and tight
General malaise

My stats have also gone way up on BP and HR as well
Started at
131/73 BP and 89 HR
Now im
153/86 BP and 96 HR

My Apple Watch let me know over the last 13 days my average HR went from 69 to 83

So I took 6.2mg aromasin two days ago and took another 6.2mg today. I did feel a very interesting sense of calm and kinda powerful after the first dose for that whole day. I also noticed I shrunk my face leaned up and I generally just looked kinda lean again. I was going to wait till week four to take bloodwork and see where I’m at before adding an AI or changing anything since pulling it now before I’ve hit full saturation is kinda a waste.

I’ve never experienced crashed E2 so that’s why I’m bieng cautious with aromasin dosing. I even have armidex on hand but that was only if my bloods came in way high E2. So I’m in a bit of a pickle for the next 2 weeks. My plan was to see how I feel after this last 6.2 mg aromasin and if that’s good add it maybe ever other day or as needed, thoughts?

 

[UncleBuns]

We’ll update is I’m thinking I might have really high E2 but would like feedback. I’m only on day 17 of the cycle but I’ve never used Test E or Mast E before so I don’t have a baseline. I did read up and know that mast e only masks high E2 but doesn’t drop it like EQ and Primo so my concept is that I’m a heavy aromitizer and the 300 mg test E is spiking my E2 way up.

Here’s what I’ve noticed:
Trouble sleeping kinda restlessness especially after 3am
Sensitive nipples one even sticks out a bit when hard which happens more often now
Water gain like a bunch maybe 9-10lb of what I put on, face is bloated looking
Erections happen but then go soft easy not really interested so my libido is kinda trashed
Balls are high and tight
General malaise

My stats have also gone way up on BP and HR as well
Started at
131/73 BP and 89 HR
Now im
153/86 BP and 96 HR

My Apple Watch let me know over the last 13 days my average HR went from 69 to 83

So I took 6.2mg aromasin two days ago and took another 6.2mg today. I did feel a very interesting sense of calm and kinda powerful after the first dose for that whole day. I also noticed I shrunk my face leaned up and I generally just looked kinda lean again. I was going to wait till week four to take bloodwork and see where I’m at before adding an AI or changing anything since pulling it now before I’ve hit full saturation is kinda a waste.

I’ve never experienced crashed E2 so that’s why I’m bieng cautious with aromasin dosing. I even have armidex on hand but that was only if my bloods came in way high E2. So I’m in a bit of a pickle for the next 2 weeks. My plan was to see how I feel after this last 6.2 mg aromasin and if that’s good add it maybe ever other day or as needed, thoughts?

For E2 get blood work, even just sensitive E2. Otherwise you're just guessing.

If you are going to PCT I would highly suggest taking HCG throughout the cycle.

 

[Dang-1]

So your thinking pull bloodwork early to be sure.

I do have a pct and have hcg for it but I can also add it during cycle. Do find adding during cycle better than at the end doing the hcg reboot method

 

[UncleBuns]

So your thinking pull bloodwork early to be sure.

I do have a pct and have hcg for it but I can also add it during cycle. Do find adding during cycle better than at the end doing the hcg reboot method

If I was worried about e2 I would go get just a sensitive e2 pulled. Then you will know for sure if e2 is the issue.

My understanding is that HCG through the cycle keeps your balls awake. You continue the HCG while the AAS esters clear then add in your SERM about a week before HCG cessation or right when you stop HCG. Without HCG on cycle you balls get shut down and the longer they are shut down and the higher you age is it becomes more difficult to bring them back online. HCG will for many guys keep them from full shutdown making PCT much easier.

At 45 I would use HCG all cycle. Personally I would do at least 1000 per week.

 

[Dang-1]

Alright, I ordered a test and will see although I feel way more energetic and libido is back with the second dose of aromasin so I’m thinking high E2 might have been it.

I also just started my HCG as I have enough to run 250-500 every other day and I appreciate the call as I just though of s reboot pct rather than maintaining

 

[lamehack]

if I go above 40mg T prop daily I feel like shit mentally. really on the edge anxious. anastrazole helps a bit but not a lot. what interesting though my libido is through the root. the higher I go the crazier it gets.
my feel good dose is 30mg/week or so. i wonder if adding some deca would give me muscle building properties without sending my mental health to a pit