Overtraining, Maintenance Calories, and How They're Modified on Cycle

[Exivious]

(This touches on steroids, nutrition, and training, but I thought it best for this subforum)

I'm about 4 weeks into my first cycle (500mg test c) and have been doing a 5-day push/pull/legs routine: push, pull, rest, legs, rest. I've lifted for about 8 years and feel like I'm getting newb gains again and the whole experience has been great so far, but I also feel like I could work out more often. I'm even having guilt and restlessness on off-days even though I've never had the impression I'm doing too little (I am doing more than ever), so this is obviously the reduced recovery time effect in play. But just because I can do more doesn't necessarily mean I should--or does it when steroids are involved?

The only time I ever feel like I've overtrained is in past years doing legwork as frequently as upper body work. If I end up overdoing it by going to a 5-day pull/push/pull/legs/rest schedule, I might not know till I end up with inflamed connective tissue or get my cortisol way up from the stress of it. I'm 34, after all, though not too injury prone. A compromise is working certain things more frequently, like abs everyday (which I already do), triceps every other day, neck every other day, etc.

Am I intelligently avoiding overtraining, or am I underestimating just how much I can get away with right now? Should I move to the pull/push/pull/legs/rest schedule or just add more a la carte exercises that don't fit the theme of the day into my current routines? I want to make the most of the opportunity, but I don't want to be the guy who overtrains and sees inferior gains because he's over-stressing his body.

I also can't figure out, due to the 'clean' or ambiguously clean nature of most bulking articles out there, if I should be ramping up the calories even more than I have been. I was gaining at 2700-2800 per day when I started, coming off a keto cut so much of that was water, but I've been plateau'd at 155.4-156lbs (get all your laughing out of the way now) for the last 10 days.

Is basal metabolism accelerated on cycle, or do I only need additional calories to make up for the additional exercise I'm doing? I guess it doesn't matter if I'm not gaining, but I'm still curious. I'm reticent to jump up to 3200 right away because I currently don't plan on doing any aided cutting cycles in the future (though anavar is tempting--the other two intimidate me ), so I don't want to put on too much fat. Typically with a more conservative workout schedule (push/off/legs/off/pull/off) my maintenance calories are around 2200.

I'd love to hear any advice or opinions.

 

[Mac11wildcat]

Very simply, everything increases on gear.

-the amount of lifting you can recover from
-the amount of cals needed: for expenditure from more training AND increased muscle protein synthesis
-overtraining on gear is nearly non-existent if you’re eating and sleeping appropriately

Why WOULDNT you do more on gear? The entire point is to achieve more than posssible natural, right? Why not increase intensity? Why not eat to grow (IE more)?

This doesn’t mean eliminate off days. But you can get away with hitting muscle groups more often and harder while youre on.

 

[Exivious]

Thanks, that's the kind of definitive 'of COURSE do even more' kick in the ass I was probably looking for. I've already increased calories, intensity, frequency so much compared to my usual, but I've tried not to overestimate the gear and get cocky. I think I may have underestimated it. I'll go up to 3000/day tomorrow and add in more isolation stuff on days I'd normally work other groups and probably raise it again to 3200 in a week.

 

[taco33150]

WhAt are you doing on your off days for calories ...??

 

[Exivious]

WhAt are you doing on your off days for calories ...??

I'm trying to eat just as much on off-days, but I've dropped back a few hundred calories a few times out of, I guess, caution. Some people say eat just as much on rest days because protein synthesis continues, others say drop down since you won't actively burn as many. The latter seems more intuitive and obvious, though I'm conflicted.

 

[Jankauskas]

I'm trying to eat just as much on off-days, but I've dropped back a few hundred calories a few times out of, I guess, caution. Some people say eat just as much on rest days because protein synthesis continues, others say drop down since you won't actively burn as many. The latter seems more intuitive and obvious, though I'm conflicted.

If I want to gain mass I eat the same every day, on or off. If I want to cut or I’m cruising (or off cycle if that’s what you do), I eat less 400 calories worth of carbs on off days.

 

[Ophydian]

(This touches on steroids, nutrition, and training, but I thought it best for this subforum)

I'm about 4 weeks into my first cycle (500mg test c) and have been doing a 5-day push/pull/legs routine: push, pull, rest, legs, rest. I've lifted for about 8 years and feel like I'm getting newb gains again and the whole experience has been great so far, but I also feel like I could work out more often. I'm even having guilt and restlessness on off-days even though I've never had the impression I'm doing too little (I am doing more than ever), so this is obviously the reduced recovery time effect in play. But just because I can do more doesn't necessarily mean I should--or does it when steroids are involved?

The only time I ever feel like I've overtrained is in past years doing legwork as frequently as upper body work. If I end up overdoing it by going to a 5-day pull/push/pull/legs/rest schedule, I might not know till I end up with inflamed connective tissue or get my cortisol way up from the stress of it. I'm 34, after all, though not too injury prone. A compromise is working certain things more frequently, like abs everyday (which I already do), triceps every other day, neck every other day, etc.

Am I intelligently avoiding overtraining, or am I underestimating just how much I can get away with right now? Should I move to the pull/push/pull/legs/rest schedule or just add more a la carte exercises that don't fit the theme of the day into my current routines? I want to make the most of the opportunity, but I don't want to be the guy who overtrains and sees inferior gains because he's over-stressing his body.

I also can't figure out, due to the 'clean' or ambiguously clean nature of most bulking articles out there, if I should be ramping up the calories even more than I have been. I was gaining at 2700-2800 per day when I started, coming off a keto cut so much of that was water, but I've been plateau'd at 155.4-156lbs (get all your laughing out of the way now) for the last 10 days.

Is basal metabolism accelerated on cycle, or do I only need additional calories to make up for the additional exercise I'm doing? I guess it doesn't matter if I'm not gaining, but I'm still curious. I'm reticent to jump up to 3200 right away because I currently don't plan on doing any aided cutting cycles in the future (though anavar is tempting--the other two intimidate me ), so I don't want to put on too much fat. Typically with a more conservative workout schedule (push/off/legs/off/pull/off) my maintenance calories are around 2200.

I'd love to hear any advice or opinions.

Very simply, everything increases on gear.

-the amount of lifting you can recover from
-the amount of cals needed: for expenditure from more training AND increased muscle protein synthesis
-overtraining on gear is nearly non-existent if you’re eating and sleeping appropriately

Why WOULDNT you do more on gear? The entire point is to achieve more than posssible natural, right? Why not increase intensity? Why not eat to grow (IE more)?

This doesn’t mean eliminate off days. But you can get away with hitting muscle groups more often and harder while youre on.

Overtraining non-existent
Be very careful with this line of thinking. Muscle fiber will repair much faster on cycle but exogenous testosterone cause collagen synthesis to be reduced by up to 50%. So while your muscles are growing at an increased rate your tendons are not and you WILL get to a point where you can lift more than your tendons can handle and that’s when injuries happen.

 

[Mac11wildcat]

I don’t think exceeding tendon strength is what he meant by “overtraining” but you are absolutely correct. A cycle with decent EQ/Deca dosing alleviates a lot of this.

 

[Mac11wildcat]

I'm trying to eat just as much on off-days, but I've dropped back a few hundred calories a few times out of, I guess, caution. Some people say eat just as much on rest days because protein synthesis continues, others say drop down since you won't actively burn as many. The latter seems more intuitive and obvious, though I'm conflicted.

Don’t get caught up in minutia. Set a diet that works, whether it drops cals on off days or not and just ride it out. Don’t forget to up cals as your cycle continues (increased body weight and metabolic adaption).

 

[Exivious]

Overtraining non-existent
Be very careful with this line of thinking. Muscle fiber will repair much faster on cycle but exogenous testosterone cause collagen synthesis to be reduced by up to 50%. So while your muscles are growing at an increased rate your tendons are not and you WILL get to a point where you can lift more than your tendons can handle and that’s when injuries happen.

Interesting. I've read some things about increased connective tissue strength on cycle or feeling as though joints are more stable, and other things about the muscles outpacing the tendons and joints. Your explanation makes sense, though. I made another thread about increased need for stretching on cycle as I was having quite a bit of stiffness till recently, so I'm doing what I can there, but maybe there are supplements I could add. Glucosamine/chondroitin has been a miracle for me, but is there anything else that may be worth taking, at least temporarily?

Don’t get caught up in minutia. Set a diet that works, whether it drops cals on off days or not and just ride it out. Don’t forget to up cals as your cycle continues (increased body weight and metabolic adaption).

Hah I didn't even think about the fact that when I was gaining at 2700 I was also still in the adjusting phase and was having heart palpitations all day and night sweats from 10pm to 10am. My E2 was high and I suspect my thyroid was off as well. That makes me feel a lot better about eating 3000 as now my hormones (and anastrozole dose) are well-adjusted and my metabolism should be ideal.

 

[Endure]

I can't speak for your supplements and calories but personally I like active rest days. Doing something light for recovery while still feeling like you're doing something. Yardwork, light jog, stretching routines, bodyweight activation exercises etc.

 

[Exivious]

I can't speak for your supplements and calories but personally I like active rest days. Doing something light for recovery while still feeling like you're doing something. Yardwork, light jog, stretching routines, bodyweight activation exercises etc.

Yep, I do that too. I try to stretch at least 30 minutes a day (including lifting days, but no static stretches until after lifting) and do spin bike recovery (~120 bpm) on rest days.

 

[Millard]

First and foremost, anabolic steroids, and most PEDs for that matter, are recovery drugs. Top athletes on AAS/PEDs are training harder than everyone else because they can.

 

[Exivious]

Well, 3000 calories has me gaining about 1.5 lb a week. This seems like a healthy rate for a receptor-naive newb. My waist measurement has been stable since starting the bulk, stomach skinfold is stable, and pec and thigh skinfolds are slightly down.

It's tough to judge if I'm eating the right amount based on bodyweight alone, though, given increased glycogen stores which I feel like have finally leveled out here in week 5. I've also had some killer nocturnal calf cramps (my one calf is still sore from a cramp a week ago) I've been drinking a ton of water for, which means my morning dry weights are inflated lately. Other measurements suggests I'm on track, though.