If it's all the same then that is a great point Stretch.
Is the Fact that Anthony Roberts wrote that bad or good??
MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
PCT Explained
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If it's all the same then that is a great point Stretch.
Is the Fact that Anthony Roberts wrote that bad or good??
Stretch
Subscriber
Well, my opinion on the topic shouldnt mean too much to you. I am not a doctor or an educated man, I have taught myself all that I know through reading online. However, in terms of PCT it is usually accepted around the boards which I frequent that, Dr Scally is the foremost expert on AAS induced AIH. When speaking on topics of PCT I am almost always simply parroting answers which I have heard given by Dr. Scally previously.
With that in mind, Dr. Scally recommends hCG use during every cycle.
If you are doing a typical 12-16 week cycle, hCG is a very good addition. Also, what concerns me is too many run cycle after cycle with little attention to the "guys." I am undoubtedly sensitized since I saw far too much AIH. On a short cycle (2-4 weeks) with known prior HPTA function, hCG can be omitted. But, again, labs, labs, labs. JMHO
Thank you Stretch and Dr Scally. It seems that This Roberts guy and Dr. Scally are almost on the same boat. As far as the HCG, Ever since I read that it should be taken during cycle, it makes perfect common sense to me. This means shit because I am not medically educated but I will take Stretch's word that Dr. Scally is the final word on the subject because it makes more sense anyway.
You might say that is a bit of a stretch!
Is it??? As I said, I am not medically educated. The more I understand the vocabulary, the more sense it makes to me but I guess not enough yet. I decided to change the oil before blowing my engine (thanks Stretch but being that I am educated in mechanical aspects, it's not the best analogy but I couldn't think of another one anyway) More like building the edge of a shovel or shear blade with welds before it's too far gone.
Actually I guess it is pretty good. I just looked too deep into it.
Stretch
Subscriber
The back and forth...
I got it...
Oh shit...no I don't.
Okay. I really got it now...
Fuk!! There's more?!?!..
We all went through that....here's some more reading.
https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/134288447
https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/134287449
Yes, thanks Stretch, it is hard because there are many contradictions on the subject. I did a lot of reading in the late 90's when I was seriously into BB but there is a lot more now and again, more contradictions. I will read what you suggest and stick to this train of thought. Thanks again.
Pericles
New Member
There are tons of kids (22-27, most make or have a lot of money and a galactic sense of entitlement around my place of work. None of them ran pct properly and are now on TRT (insanity at that age). HCG, at least for me, is expensive and hard to get. They never want to pay for it (although most earn over 6 figures) They will start a SERM 3 days after last inj or long acting ester, and then be frustrated hence the trt).
The way I use HCG has always been similar to the Scally protocol: large amounts, 1-2 k iu's e2d (Scally is e3d) and starting 5 days after last inj of T e,c etc. The goal is to get the boys back online. However, the HCG sends a strong feedback signal, almost as much as gear, and taking a SERM at that point is counterproductive, unless they are high risk for gyno. I usually go first w/ an AI, then add Nolva if someone is particularly at risk for gyno. Oh, and HCG produces a ton of estro, so some might need extra Nolva.
I have them finish the HCG 20 days after last test shot, and then go w a/or 1 SERM. I use Nolva and Clomid, but the younger guys often get by w/ just nolva.
I can barely get guys to comply w/ this^ schedule. They rarely want to use HCG while on cycle, it is a massive compliance issue.
The way I use HCG has always been similar to the Scally protocol: large amounts, 1-2 k iu's e2d (Scally is e3d) and starting 5 days after last inj of T e,c etc. The goal is to get the boys back online. However, the HCG sends a strong feedback signal, almost as much as gear, and taking a SERM at that point is counterproductive, unless they are high risk for gyno. I usually go first w/ an AI, then add Nolva if someone is particularly at risk for gyno. Oh, and HCG produces a ton of estro, so some might need extra Nolva.
I have them finish the HCG 20 days after last test shot, and then go w a/or 1 SERM. I use Nolva and Clomid, but the younger guys often get by w/ just nolva.
I can barely get guys to comply w/ this^ schedule. They rarely want to use HCG while on cycle, it is a massive compliance issue.
Great stuff Stretch. I now know why I had such a hard time with my last cycle (2001) of sust and deca. There is only one thing that I am unsure about and that is the dosage of HCG. On this forum under HCG, it says that 500IU EOD is a max. If so then why do people still take such large doses?
Let me add this cause someone might get something from it.. My last cycle of 750mg sust and 500mg of deca for like 16 weeks with some d-bol, tren and primo in middle., I did a shit PCT according to my new knowledge so after a while, I could not take it anymore, the feeling of depression and weakness I had. I started taking tren cause I had a shit load of it just for some androgens.. Long story short, my mother died of cancer and I just had no concern with myself. I can say now that even though it would still be the worst time of my life, I think it would have been a lot better if I had normal hormone levels. I think it took many months before my nuts were at somewhat normal size.
So lets all make sure that we do get PCT right.
So lets all make sure that we do get PCT right.
Stretch
Subscriber
This is in the steroid profile section under HCG in this forum:
The traditional HCG dose was 5000 IU at a time. While this produces blood levels representing a vast overdose for at least the first week after injection, this dosage had a medical use as in many cases it is desirable to administer only a single injection, or infrequent injections, than to require two or more office visits per week for injection. And as the half life is only a few days, an extremely high initial level is required to obtain extended duration of action from a single injection.
This dosage is far more than should ever be used in bodybuilding or for hormone replacement therapy.
My previous recommendation of 500 IU/day as being generally sufficient was a radical break from bodybuilding practice at the time, which employed far higher doses that gave HCG a reputation as a harsh drug; but further experience as well as a medical study on the matter published in 2005 by Coviello et al. has shown that even less than that is needed.
Little if any difference exists in resulting testosterone production between dosings of 250 IU every other day (EOD) and 500 IU EOD. Dr Eugene Shippen has also found low-dose use effective in extensive clinical practice, and bodybuilding practice has also shown such doses to be completely effective.
Accordingly I now consider a dosage of 500 IU EOD (or 3x/week, which is nearly equivalent), or 250 IU daily to represent a reasonable absolute maximum.
As values for general use, 100 IU daily, 200 IU EOD, or 250 IU three times per week are very effective. The medical study mentioned above found no significant difference in results between this dosage level and the above recommended absolute maximum, but it may be the case that for some individuals there could be some small difference.
At these doses, unlike what is the case with vast overdoses, HCG has no perceptible side effects.
As a part of PCT, as already explained HCG should not be used during that period in which inhibition would result from the combination of the resulting testosterone production and the remaining levels of injected steroid. However, upon levels of injected steroid falling below what would be commensurate with 100 mg/week use, very low dose HCG such as 100-125 IU every other day is acceptable as a part of PCT.
Preparing hCG: Convenient dilution ratios are values such as 1000 or 2500 IU per mL. Once mixed, the preparation should be refrigerated and used within a few weeks. If the reconstituted amount is greater than can be used in such a period of time, it is acceptable to freeze portions of the preparation for later use. The substance is also somewhat temperature sensitive before mixing and should not be exposed to excessive heat. Refrigeration is required for long-term storage, but unreconstituted HCG can withstand at least two months at ordinary room temperature.
Stretch
Subscriber
Aha. I see.
The person who wrote that is clearly more intelligent and educated than I am. But what he is saying does not coincide with what Dr. Scally says.
This is the most frustrating part of AAS for me. It is hard for me to accept things, I ALWAYS want to be right, and I ALWAYS want clear cut answers. Ive come to terms with the fact that I simply won't get them in many areas because, as is the case here, too many people much smarter than I am disagree on the issues at hand.
So, my infantile yet effective recourse, was to pick the expert rather than the theory. Drs simply don't deal with AAS usually.
Crisler was a joke IMO.
Shippen...eh...he's a shrink. Smart man...but a shrink.
Scally went to MIT.
Scally has dealt with AAS and AIH for I don't even know how long. Longer than any other MD that's for sure.
Scally trains and uses or at least used.
He genuinely cares, and you see this care come out when he bashes those promoting the kind of bro science that harms AAS users.
I do not blow scally on my days off...(or working days either...fuckers). I am the only currently active vet I know of who has openly disagreed with him on the forum. I'm not just some blind supporter....these are the facts you would learn for yourself over a few years of membership.
The person who wrote that is clearly more intelligent and educated than I am. But what he is saying does not coincide with what Dr. Scally says.
This is the most frustrating part of AAS for me. It is hard for me to accept things, I ALWAYS want to be right, and I ALWAYS want clear cut answers. Ive come to terms with the fact that I simply won't get them in many areas because, as is the case here, too many people much smarter than I am disagree on the issues at hand.
So, my infantile yet effective recourse, was to pick the expert rather than the theory. Drs simply don't deal with AAS usually.
Crisler was a joke IMO.
Shippen...eh...he's a shrink. Smart man...but a shrink.
Scally went to MIT.
Scally has dealt with AAS and AIH for I don't even know how long. Longer than any other MD that's for sure.
Scally trains and uses or at least used.
He genuinely cares, and you see this care come out when he bashes those promoting the kind of bro science that harms AAS users.
I do not blow scally on my days off...(or working days either...fuckers). I am the only currently active vet I know of who has openly disagreed with him on the forum. I'm not just some blind supporter....these are the facts you would learn for yourself over a few years of membership.
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I got you 1000% and could not agree with you more. To me Dr.'s are like us mechanics only a lot more educated. I have been one all of my life in many fields. I can tell you that ACE certified means shit. Most mechanics do not have the I.Q. required to be good at it because smarter people do higher paying things with more class. I am a little exception. I am a mechanic because I love it. My family owns a scrap processor so I did what I loved and get to work with insane machinery.. I am never in that shit office and get paid the same, as a partner. I am a lucky bastard but it has shown me what I have explained. If Dr. Scally deals with AAS through experience, personal and otherwise, then he probably knows more than most who just read the pharmacology.
