PFS (finateride) Symptoms

[HenryRollins]

Have PFS symptoms, almost two years after quitting. 26 years old, male, 5'9 160lbs. Generally good health otherwise. Symptoms include ED/fatigue (had fatigue prior to use also)/watery semen/waking up too early (0-2 hours before alarm),low temp (has since normalized). Had a history of anxiety/panic attacks prior to use and have none or almost none now.

Hormones look decent for the most part:

Testosterone, Serum 976 348-1197 ng/dL RN
LH 4.8 1.7-8.6 mIU/mL RN
FSH 1.9 1.5-12.4 mIU/mL RN ---Probably too low
Estradiol 30.3 7.6-42.6 pg/mL RN ---A bit high
TSH 3.120 0.450-4.500 uIU/mL RN ----too high, need FT3 FT4 RT3


Tried Clomid restart with an AI, didn't really help symptoms hormones skyrocketed though:

Testosterone, Serum 1242 HIGH 348-1197 ng/dL RN ----high
Testosterone,Free 49.68 HIGH 5.00-21.00 ng/dL BN ----very high
% Free Testosterone 4.00 1.50-4.20 % BN
Dihydrotestosterone 75 ng/dL ES
Adult Male: 30 - 85
Prolactin 8.8 4.0-15.2 ng/mL RN ---- probably too high
Insulin-Like Growth Factor I 159 83-344 ng/mL BN -----dont know much about IGF, probably too low
Estradiol, Sensitive 34 3-70 pg/mL BN
Cholesterol, Total 110 100-199 mg/dL RN -----way too low, due to high T?

Thinking adrenal/cortisol/thyroid needs to be looked into more, as a start anyway. Getting more labs soon.

Have been taking pregnenolone per suggestion on another board ATM. Definitely helps with the fatigue. In fact dosed right I don't have any fatigue. Has helped quite a bit with erection quality too it seems. Definitely not 100% though.

Tried HCG for a month. Dosage was 1000 3x/wk I think. Felt "normal" or pretty close to normal for a couple weeks as far as libido/erection quality/semen quality. Benefits seemed to diminish though and didn't last after stopping.

Opinions/suggestions welcome. I know this is a complicated issue.

 

[blazinshotguns]

Your natural t levels are great and your dht is also perfect . Your sexual issues are not t related.
Your prolactin is not high at all. Mine is around 13 and I'm fine .

Check your thyroid and adrenal .

Take vitamin d 5000iu daily and do something about your cholesterol . It's crazy how your cholesterol is so low .

Your natural t is very high idk if that's good or not . Anyway I wish my t levels where like yours.

You need to see a doc . Get multiple opinions .
You might need hgh .

 

[HenryRollins]

Yea the T looks good, so I don't think that's the problem, and it did get very high on the Clomid.

I've been taking 5000 vit D actually for a while. I assume it was low to start with, but need to get it tested to see where it falls now.

Diet wise I've been upping the fats and eggs to try and get that chol number up. Need retested also.

 

[HenryRollins]

I don't know much about HGH, how might that be helpful?

 

[blazinshotguns]

I don't know much about HGH, how might that be helpful?

I don't think it would help you sexually , but your hgh levels seem at an unhealthy level . Long term wise .

I'd start off with fixing your thyroid and go from there . Your e2 is a bit high not to bad . Adex .25 every 3 days should help .

 

[blazinshotguns]

What's sides where you getting from using fin ?

 

[PharmD518]

T levels look great but it's common for PFS sufferers to not respond to T replacement or high T levels.

What is the Post-Finasteride Syndrome?
The following outlines the common pattern experienced by those who suffer from this syndrome:

1. brief resolution of side effects within 10-20 days after quitting Finasteride (as 5AR2 enzyme activity/DHT supposedly "returns" to baseline), followed by
2. a complete endocrine system crash whereby Testosterone, LH and FSH hormones plummet to hypogonadal levels within weeks/months of discontinuation, along with numerous other imbalances such as elevated estradiaol, TSH, Prolactin, SHBG; below range 3a-diol-G levels; below range Vitamin D levels, followed by
3. simultaneous & rapid emergence of a commonly shared hypogonadal symptomatic profile, followed by
4. ongoing, irreversible, persistent side effects with little to variable symptomatic improvement -- even years after quitting
5. attempts to restore androgen levels/androgenic response in a number of ex-Finasteride users (via drugs such as clomiphene citrate, human chorionic gonadotropin, Testosterone replacement therapy, estrogen/prolactin/TSH management protocols etc) often meet with little to variable longterm success
6. in some men, supraphysiological dosages of androgen such as Testosterone (androgel, cypionates) and DHT (andactrim gel, proviron oral DHT, masteron propionate) typically only provide a variable or brief improvement/response -- often followed by a return to baseline or worsening of hypogonadal symptoms once again within hours, days or weeks.

The Post-Finasteride Syndrome is thus a clinical condition of permanent sexual, mental and physical side effects which do not resolve after quitting the drug, most often accompanied by an acquired form of secondary hypogonadism and post-drug loss of androgenic action, which remains variably resistant to hormonal treatments aimed at restoring Testosterone/DHT's effects in the male body to pre-drug virility levels.

 

[blazinshotguns]

T levels look great but it's common for PFS sufferers to not respond to T replacement or high T levels.

What is the Post-Finasteride Syndrome?
The following outlines the common pattern experienced by those who suffer from this syndrome:

1. brief resolution of side effects within 10-20 days after quitting Finasteride (as 5AR2 enzyme activity/DHT supposedly "returns" to baseline), followed by
2. a complete endocrine system crash whereby Testosterone, LH and FSH hormones plummet to hypogonadal levels within weeks/months of discontinuation, along with numerous other imbalances such as elevated estradiaol, TSH, Prolactin, SHBG; below range 3a-diol-G levels; below range Vitamin D levels, followed by
3. simultaneous & rapid emergence of a commonly shared hypogonadal symptomatic profile, followed by
4. ongoing, irreversible, persistent side effects with little to variable symptomatic improvement -- even years after quitting
5. attempts to restore androgen levels/androgenic response in a number of ex-Finasteride users (via drugs such as clomiphene citrate, human chorionic gonadotropin, Testosterone replacement therapy, estrogen/prolactin/TSH management protocols etc) often meet with little to variable longterm success
6. in some men, supraphysiological dosages of androgen such as Testosterone (androgel, cypionates) and DHT (andactrim gel, proviron oral DHT, masteron propionate) typically only provide a variable or brief improvement/response -- often followed by a return to baseline or worsening of hypogonadal symptoms once again within hours, days or weeks.

The Post-Finasteride Syndrome is thus a clinical condition of permanent sexual, mental and physical side effects which do not resolve after quitting the drug, most often accompanied by an acquired form of secondary hypogonadism and post-drug loss of androgenic action, which remains variably resistant to hormonal treatments aimed at restoring Testosterone/DHT's effects in the male body to pre-drug virility levels.

looks like I'm not gonna stop taking propecia

 

[Sinister HellFire]

try taking https://www.1napsgear.org/product_info.php?ref=2522&products_id=120 (proviron)brother.

 

[blazinshotguns]

Anyone know the persentage of users of propecia who experience this PFS . Can I get it while still taking it ?

 

[johnnyBALLZ]

Anyone know the persentage of users of propecia who experience this PFS . Can I get it while still taking it ?

I've seen a few different figures, around 2-3% but who knows..

Some people report the symptoms within the first few months of taking the drug but most cases are after it's discontinued from what I've read.

 

[HenryRollins]

What's sides where you getting from using fin ?

While using I really didn't seemingly have any noticeable a sides for a while, months. I was using a pretty small dosage too, maybe 1/4 tab every day or EOD. Seemed to wake up one day and poof, sex drive/EQ was gone at which point I quit. Still have that problem though it's improving. Reduced semen, and possibly a fucked up sleep cycle also.

 

[HenryRollins]

try taking https://www.1napsgear.org/product_info.php?ref=2522&products_id=120 (proviron)brother.

Thought about that, but labs confirmed near top of the range DHT and had symptoms still at that point, so not sure that's the problem.

 

[HenryRollins]

looks like I'm not gonna stop taking propecia

Honestly you're probably fine if you're using it, it seems to be a very small subset that has problems and an even smaller subset where the problems don't go away upon discontinuation. Is it 1:100? 1:1000? I have no idea. But I'm pretty sure millions have used the drug for hairloss/BHP/prostate problems. I just seem to have gotten caught playing with fire.

 

[HenryRollins]

Note labs posted above are 6-7 months old, would like to redo soon and add additional.

The probem areas I see from the limited lab work are:

FSH 1.9 1.5-12.4 mIU/mL RN ---Too low -> (hypopituitary? something else?)
Estradiol 30.3 7.6-42.6 pg/mL RN ---A bit high
TSH 3.120 0.450-4.500 uIU/mL RN ----too high, need FT3 FT4 RT3, looking for top 1/3 range in FT3, bottom 1/3 range in RT3
Insulin-Like Growth Factor I 159 83-344 ng/mL BN ----- Very low, relation to HGH
Cholesterol, Total 110 100-199 mg/dL RN -----way too low -> (gut issue?vit D? diet? Other?) HDL was 47 I believe which I now realize is terrible

New thyroid labs in the next couple weeks to see whats really going on there as it is most easily treatable and has massive impact on overall hormones, neurotrasmitters, and wellbeing.

 

[HenryRollins]

Other old lab work from the same draw. Looks on the money except for BUN(often elevated in athletes/weight lifters) and Potassium could be better.

CBC With Differential/Platelet
WBC 5.9 3.4-10.8 x10E3/uL RN
RBC 5.16 4.14-5.80 x10E6/uL RN
Hemoglobin 16.3 12.6-17.7 g/dL RN
Hematocrit 48.6 37.5-51.0 % RN
MCV 94 79-97 fL RN
MCH 31.6 26.6-33.0 pg RN
MCHC 33.5 31.5-35.7 g/dL RN
RDW 13.3 12.3-15.4 % RN
Platelets 213 155-379 x10E3/uL RN
Neutrophils 62 40-74 % RN
Lymphs 29 14-46 % RN
Monocytes 7 4-12 % RN
Eos 1 0-5 % RN
Basos 1 0-3 % RN
Neutrophils (Absolute) 3.7 1.4-7.0 x10E3/uL RN
Lymphs (Absolute) 1.7 0.7-3.1 x10E3/uL RN
Monocytes(Absolute) 0.4 0.1-0.9 x10E3/uL RN
Eos (Absolute) 0.1 0.0-0.4 x10E3/uL RN
Baso (Absolute) 0.0 0.0-0.2 x10E3/uL RN
Immature Granulocytes 0 0-2 % RN
Immature Grans (Abs) 0.0 0.0-0.1 x10E3/uL RN
Comp. Metabolic Panel (14)
Glucose, Serum 83 65-99 mg/dL RN
BUN 23 HIGH 6-20 mg/dL RN
Creatinine, Serum 1.20 0.76-1.27 mg/dL RN
eGFR If NonAfricn Am 84 >59 mL/min/1.73 RN
eGFR If Africn Am 97 >59 mL/min/1.73 RN
BUN/Creatinine Ratio 19 8-19 RN
Sodium, Serum 141 134-144 mmol/L RN
Potassium, Serum 4.0 3.5-5.2 mmol/L RN
Chloride, Serum 102 97-108 mmol/L RN
Carbon Dioxide, Total 24 19-28 mmol/L RN
Calcium, Serum 9.7 8.7-10.2 mg/dL RN
Protein, Total, Serum 7.0 6.0-8.5 g/dL RN
Albumin, Serum 4.7 3.5-5.5 g/dL RN
Globulin, Total 2.3 1.5-4.5 g/dL RN
A/G Ratio 2.0 1.1-2.5 RN
Bilirubin, Total 0.8 0.0-1.2 mg/dL RN
Alkaline Phosphatase, S 49 39-117 IU/L RN
AST (SGOT) 27 0-40 IU/L RN
ALT (SGPT) 16 0-44 IU/L RN

 

[HenryRollins]

"You need to see a doc . Get multiple opinions."

The fact is most docs don't even recognize this as a condition and possibly none know how to treat it. There are a few who have spoken extensively on the subject (John Crisler) but really wouldn't be feasible to see with travel etc. Most docs blinded to the potential issues with this drug would just label me a headcase.

 

[blazinshotguns]

"You need to see a doc . Get multiple opinions."

The fact is most docs don't even recognize this as a condition and possibly none know how to treat it. There are a few who have spoken extensively on the subject (John Crisler) but really wouldn't be feasible to see with travel etc. Most docs blinded to the potential issues with this drug would just label me a headcase.

I think most docs would look at his t level and tell him it's all in his head . Not a right answer , but most docs I seen give me answers like that

 

[PharmD518]

My best guess at the etiology of PFS is an over expression of androgen receptors. Guys who have been on Propecia for a year's time, suddenly come off and the body becomes flooded with DHT, testosterone. Body can't cope and the receptors permanently shut down. At least that's how it seemed to happen for me. Felt like a freaking porn star after cessation. Multiple wet dreams per night, crazy erections. Less than a week later everything just shut down, entire endocrine system crash. No response from any amount of hormone since.

 

[johnnyBALLZ]

My best guess at the etiology of PFS is an over expression of androgen receptors. Guys who have been on Propecia for a year's time, suddenly come off and the body becomes flooded with DHT, testosterone. Body can't cope and the receptors permanently shut down. At least that's how it seemed to happen for me. Felt like a freaking porn star after cessation. Multiple wet dreams per night, crazy erections. Less than a week later everything just shut down, entire endocrine system crash. No response from any amount of hormone since.

So what if you were already shut down coming off and taking artificial test?