primo and test lab work thread - e2 crushed from primo

[buzzingonaas]

While on the topic of crushed lipids, how many guys have successfully stayed in range or significantly improved their lipids while on a previously lipid-crushing dose of primo with either a statin or ezetimibe? I’m considering both but I know statins have bigger drawbacks

 

[Eddie.]

While on the topic of crushed lipids, how many guys have successfully stayed in range or significantly improved their lipids while on a previously lipid-crushing dose of primo with either a statin or ezetimibe? I’m considering both but I know statins have bigger drawbacks

I don't have info on past primo use but here's my bloodwork before primo with test+hcg on cruise compared to my bloodwork after 18 weeks on higher test+primo plus some anavar for the last 7 weeks while taking 10mg ezetimibe. It definitely worked for me! Basically my HDL still took a slight hit but i was expecting a bigger one, also cholesterol, triglycerides and LDL came down WHILE on higher test, primo + anavar.

My journey from permabulk to get jacked

Do you have stretch marks to begin with? Not yet but i have a shit ton of weight to lose.But it is what it is we will see

thinksteroids.com

 

[Ouch]

I can't control my lipids no matter the primo dose. It's incredibly harsh on them even at 100mg, especially to my HDL. I'm doing a trial run of citrus bergamot and I'm nearly at 30 days so I'm going to see if it helps. If not I may have to ditch it. Diet doesn't seem to matter either. Primo simply isn't a free lunch for me nor seemingly anyone I come across who actually takes blood work.

Natty my HDL is 80. On TRT sub 200 I'm 55. The additional 100mg of primo tanks it to 35.

This is exactly what mine did. Natty my HDL sits in the 60s. 100 mg cut it down to 38. And that’s with Rosuvastatin 5mg x 4 days weekly, Natokinase, and Citrus Bergamot.

 

[Ouch]

While on the topic of crushed lipids, how many guys have successfully stayed in range or significantly improved their lipids while on a previously lipid-crushing dose of primo with either a statin or ezetimibe? I’m considering both but I know statins have bigger drawbacks

Didn’t work for me - see post above. I did add eztimibe after getting my blood work back, but I can only handle taking that 2 x weekly at most. That’s why I just ended up lowering down to 50mg…basically just a science experiment at this point to see if it can act as a serm while pushing test a little higher

 

[Eddie.]

This is exactly what mine did. Natty my HDL sits in the 60s. 100 mg cut it down to 38. And that’s with Rosuvastatin 5mg x 4 days weekly, Natokinase, and Citrus Bergamot.

Yeah, that's a pretty drastic reduction and considering this is with rosuvostatin (which isn't the lowest dose, as some take 2,5mg twice a week and keep them okayish) i'd say it's too much and obviously doesn't worth the risk to reward for you running DHT derivatives.

Although don't expect to hold a decent HDL while on cycle, it's gonna differ a lot from your natty levels. There are some guys with single digit HDL on cycle and don't do anything to raise it as long as LDL and trigl are held pretty low.

 

[Ouch]

Yeah, that's a pretty drastic reduction and considering this is with rosuvostatin (which isn't the lowest dose, as some take 2,5mg twice a week and keep them okayish) i'd say it's too much and obviously doesn't worth the risk to reward for you running DHT derivatives.

Although don't expect to hold a decent HDL while on cycle, it's gonna differ a lot from your natty levels. There are some guys with single digit HDL on cycle and don't do anything to raise it as long as LDL and trigl are held pretty low.

Yeah man this is good advice and I agree. I have hyperlipidemia (familial) but normally 5mg x 3 weekly keeps me in normal range. Previously I’ve run Var up to 30mg daily and I just bump my statin to 4 x weekly…my HDL drops a little bit but not terribly.

I’ve also pulled bloodwork while on cycle and using tamoxifen and my lipids are better than natty. Tamoxifen can actually have a positive effect on some people’s lipids…but running a dht with it would probably make for some crazy e2 management. Maybe an experiment for another time.

I’ve never had a compound do what Primo did so drastically. And like you said - it’s a no-go for me. I have 6 weeks left on this cycle and going to keep it at 50mg for probably 4 more weeks than taper down the last 2.

 

[jtmarlin]

Also something to consider is that Estrogen (E2) has a positive effect on lipids.
Estrogen increases HDL while decreasing LDL but does raise Triglycerides
If the amount of Primo you are running reduces E2 considerably this will also impact your lipid profile negatively

Are you sure about this? You can't run high levels of test, let your E2 rise and have great lipids. I've had decent E2 mid 20s running lots of test and primo and my cholesterol was worse than running low doses with lower E2.

 

[Deskoze38192]

Are you sure about this? You can't run high levels of test, let your E2 rise and have great lipids. I've had decent E2 mid 20s running lots of test and primo and my cholesterol was worse than running low doses with lower E2.

Yes I’m sure because it is a fact.
High E2 has many negative consequences
I definitely didn’t say high E2
I said Estrogen has a positive effect on lipids.
This is the effect estrogen has when it is normal and in range.
When we take large doses of exogenous hormones we bring everything way out of range and that changes the results
Same holds true for low out of range, their is also negative consequences
It’a not as simple as this is good so 10 times this is going to be better. I definitely didn’t say that
I was specifically talking about estrogen being too low can have a negative impact on lipids in addition to the the negative impact Primo already has on lipids.
Too low or too high equals negative impacts

 

[mindgame1516]

My last blast at 200 primo and 500 test destroyed my lipids as well I got booped work a months or a little more after the cycle and my dr was ready to put me on a statin. I have the blood work somewhere and I’ll post it

 

[egruberman]

My last blast was 750/750 test and primo. Started fine at 55pg/mL but I carried my blast into a cut, got really lean and was at 19pg/mL toward the end. Next blast, I'll pull e2 more frequently.

Since we're on the topic, This is the cheapest I've found the ultrasensitive Quest lab: ESTRADIOL , Sensitive (LC/MS/MS)
At $36 I can do check it every month or so.

My lipids were decent on blast, but I'm on a host of lipid lowering pharms. 10mg rosuvastatin, 10mg ezetimibe, 180mg bempedoic acid, and Repatha every couple weeks.

Repatha, I'd recommend to anyone with FH. It's hella expensive but they have a copay card that's easy to get. A pro tip I got from another user here. Bempedoic acid is cheap through the Indian pharmacies and is very complementary to a statin and ezetimibe, so much so that in the US it's offered as a combined dose, called Nexlizet, which is 180mg bempedoic acid and 10mg ezetimibe. I've noticed no notable side effects from any of the lipid lowering drugs.

 

[Ouch]

My last blast was 750/750 test and primo. Started fine at 55pg/mL but I carried my blast into a cut, got really lean and was at 19pg/mL toward the end. Next blast, I'll pull e2 more frequently.

Since we're on the topic, This is the cheapest I've found the ultrasensitive Quest lab: ESTRADIOL , Sensitive (LC/MS/MS)
At $36 I can do check it every month or so.

My lipids were decent on blast, but I'm on a host of lipid lowering pharms. 10mg rosuvastatin, 10mg ezetimibe, 180mg bempedoic acid, and Repatha every couple weeks.

Repatha, I'd recommend to anyone with FH. It's hella expensive but they have a copay card that's easy to get. A pro tip I got from another user here. Bempedoic acid is cheap through the Indian pharmacies and is very complementary to a statin and ezetimibe, so much so that in the US it's offered as a combined dose, called Nexlizet, which is 180mg bempedoic acid and 10mg ezetimibe. I've noticed no notable side effects from any of the lipid lowering drugs.

That’s good your not experiencing any side effects. Eztimibe fucks up my digestion something awful. Bemoedoic acid sounds promising but the sides of tendon tearing scares me a bit. Do you run all this off cycle too?

 

[egruberman]

Bemoedoic acid sounds promising but the sides of tendon tearing scares me a bit. Do you run all this off cycle too?

The risk of tendon rupture is pretty low and correlated with high dose statins. I personally haven't had any issues. The more I read on the topic the more I've come to believe that statin dosing guidelines are ridiculous. Most "standard" dosing is well into the range of almost guaranteeing side effects and well into the flat part of the dose response curve. In fact, it's probably worth looking at it:



For Rosuvastatin, you'll notice that 85% of the efficacy is seen at 25% the max dose and extremely low doses still capture most of the efficacy. Sadly, Atorvastatin is often prescribed at 80mg QD nearly guaranteeing the patient will get type II diabetes within 3 years.

I run the whole stack of lipid-lowering meds off cycle as well. My aim is to keep LDL and ApoB below 60mg/dL for a couple years to see if that improves my CAC score. I had CAC a couple years back and had "mild" levels of calcified plaque, likely as a result of poor lifestyle choices earlier in life. I'm curious to see if managing cholesterol aggressively reduces it. There's some literature that suggests that it may, but the data is not conclusive at this point.

Given the potential risks, I tread carefully on cycle. My lipids take a hit, but it's pretty minor. I keep up with the cardio, trigs are low, and inflammation is low as well.

 

[Ouch]

The risk of tendon rupture is pretty low and correlated with high dose statins. I personally haven't had any issues. The more I read on the topic the more I've come to believe that statin dosing guidelines are ridiculous. Most "standard" dosing is well into the range of almost guaranteeing side effects and well into the flat part of the dose response curve. In fact, it's probably worth looking at it:

View attachment 289211

For Rosuvastatin, you'll notice that 85% of the efficacy is seen at 25% the max dose and extremely low doses still capture most of the efficacy. Sadly, Atorvastatin is often prescribed at 80mg QD nearly guaranteeing the patient will get type II diabetes within 3 years.

I run the whole stack of lipid-lowering meds off cycle as well. My aim is to keep LDL and ApoB below 60mg/dL for a couple years to see if that improves my CAC score. I had CAC a couple years back and had "mild" levels of calcified plaque, likely as a result of poor lifestyle choices earlier in life. I'm curious to see if managing cholesterol aggressively reduces it. There's some literature that suggests that it may, but the data is not conclusive at this point.

Given the potential risks, I tread carefully on cycle. My lipids take a hit, but it's pretty minor. I keep up with the cardio, trigs are low, and inflammation is low as well.

This is great stuff. That chart is new info to me. Im in the same boat as you with treading lightly on cycle and I am bummed at how hard Primo hit my hdl.

I have a CAC test coming up in September myself. I have a total Cholesterol level that sits around 400 if untreated due to genetics so I’ve studied this topic for awhile also. Natokinase is supposed to help with breaking down plaque as well and I incorporated that a few months back.

I always try to error on the side of higher E2 on cycle because estrogen is cardio protective. But of course as a previous post mentioned it doesn’t scale proportional to lipid levels.

 

[egruberman]

I have a CAC test coming up in September myself. I have a total Cholesterol level that sits around 400 if untreated due to genetics so I’ve studied this topic for awhile also. Natokinase is supposed to help with breaking down plaque as well and I incorporated that a few months back.

NK can't hurt, but all the literature points to shows a reduction in intima media thickness, which is promising, but isn't quite the same as tracking outcomes, nor does it suggest a reduction in calcified plaque. By contrast, there was a study published on bempedoic acid in the past year that shows a clear reduction in MACE (major adverse cardiac events).

To be clear, I'm not suggesting there's anything wrong with NK or that it's inferior to bempedoic acid, just that it hasn't yet met the gold standard of improving outcomes. Niacin, for example improved biomarkers, but has been shown not to be of any benefit and is potentially harmful.

Unmedicated, my total cholesterol was just north of 200mg/dL. Lifestyle changes were able to bring that down some, but when I compared my lipids to a friend of mine who is sedentary and has metabolic syndrome, but is on rosuvastatin, that caused me to reconsider my stance on statins. When I got my CAC, I decided to try all the things and see how I respond.

With a total of 400mg/dL, I'd definitely suggest an aggressive approach. It's worthwhile getting an NMR lipid panel and measuring both ApoB and Lp(a). The lipidologist Tom Dayspring recommends managing ApoB to something less than 80mg/dL for most or 60mg/dL for high risk folks.

 

[egruberman]

I just re-read what I wrote above and thought it was a bit confusing. I'm comparing biomarkers vs. outcomes and then mentioned bempedoic acid as improving outcomes which seems to imply that I think it can reduce calcified plaque.

Thus far, there is no intervention which has proven to reduce calcified plaque. NK and other compounds show promise in reducing intima media thickness or soft plaque. Likely that improves outcomes. There's some observational studies that show a reduction in plaque, but the mechanism of action is not well understood. It is presumed that a low cholesterol burden is required based on the GLAGOV trial, but there are other factors as well, lifestyle and management of inflammation.

GLAGOV Trial: Results of the GLAGOV trial

 

[NotHuman]

I’m amazed at the people who say primo doesn’t lower their estradiol. I just ran 400mg primo with 700mg test and my estradiol was 29.

To give you a reference point, on just TRT (20mg per day), my estradiol is usually 50

 

[mindgame1516]

I’m amazed at the people who say primo doesn’t lower their estradiol. I just ran 400mg primo with 700mg test and my estradiol was 29.

To give you a reference point, on just TRT (20mg per day), my estradiol is usually 50

Exactly! I’m in the same boat as you. I’m guessing guys that say it doesn’t are the guys that aren’t doing bloodwork and just guessing by feels. But there also the guys that can have there E2@90 and say they feel great

 

[Ouch]

I just re-read what I wrote above and thought it was a bit confusing. I'm comparing biomarkers vs. outcomes and then mentioned bempedoic acid as improving outcomes which seems to imply that I think it can reduce calcified plaque.

Thus far, there is no intervention which has proven to reduce calcified plaque. NK and other compounds show promise in reducing intima media thickness or soft plaque. Likely that improves outcomes. There's some observational studies that show a reduction in plaque, but the mechanism of action is not well understood. It is presumed that a low cholesterol burden is required based on the GLAGOV trial, but there are other factors as well, lifestyle and management of inflammation.

GLAGOV Trial: Results of the GLAGOV trial

Man, I appreciate your research and information with this. Im sure others will find it helpful too. I’ve spent a long time researching this topic and you’ve introduced some new (to me) stuff to look into.

 

[Ouch]

I’m amazed at the people who say primo doesn’t lower their estradiol. I just ran 400mg primo with 700mg test and my estradiol was 29.

To give you a reference point, on just TRT (20mg per day), my estradiol is usually 50

Well there’s people like myself who didn’t have a lowering effect on bloodwork. But it definitely had an impact on how I felt. Until I went to a 3:1 test/primo ratio I felt like shit w/ typical low e2 sides. But bloodwork on ultra sensitive test showed it out of range high

 

[egruberman]

new (to me) stuff to look into.

If you have FH, I'm curious what your CAC score shows. Might as well get started with Repatha. Probably hard to get insurance to cover, but the copay card is easy to get.

IMHO, PCSK9 inhibitors are the best thing since statins.