primo and test lab work thread - e2 crushed from primo

[NotHuman]

Well there’s people like myself who didn’t have a lowering effect on bloodwork. But it definitely had an impact on how I felt. Until I went to a 3:1 test/primo ratio I felt like shit w/ typical low e2 sides. But bloodwork on ultra sensitive test showed it out of range high

I certainly believe you, but are you sure it was real?

 

[NotHuman]

NK can't hurt, but all the literature points to shows a reduction in intima media thickness, which is promising, but isn't quite the same as tracking outcomes, nor does it suggest a reduction in calcified plaque. By contrast, there was a study published on bempedoic acid in the past year that shows a clear reduction in MACE (major adverse cardiac events).

To be clear, I'm not suggesting there's anything wrong with NK or that it's inferior to bempedoic acid, just that it hasn't yet met the gold standard of improving outcomes. Niacin, for example improved biomarkers, but has been shown not to be of any benefit and is potentially harmful.

Unmedicated, my total cholesterol was just north of 200mg/dL. Lifestyle changes were able to bring that down some, but when I compared my lipids to a friend of mine who is sedentary and has metabolic syndrome, but is on rosuvastatin, that caused me to reconsider my stance on statins. When I got my CAC, I decided to try all the things and see how I respond.

With a total of 400mg/dL, I'd definitely suggest an aggressive approach. It's worthwhile getting an NMR lipid panel and measuring both ApoB and Lp(a). The lipidologist Tom Dayspring recommends managing ApoB to something less than 80mg/dL for most or 60mg/dL for high risk folks.

I never expected to hear Dayspring’s name on this forum, but am pleased to see I’m not the only one familiar with his work. Respect

 

[Ouch]

If you have FH, I'm curious what your CAC score shows. Might as well get started with Repatha. Probably hard to get insurance to cover, but the copay card is easy to get.

IMHO, PCSK9 inhibitors are the best thing since statins.

I’ll definitely report my results back. I’ll be 3 weeks post cycle when I get my test. I tried getting Repatha from previous Dr and insurance denied it. But I have a new doc (who ordered the cac for me) and I am going to ask him about it when I go over my test results.

Off cycle 20mg weekly of Rosuvastatin cuts my total in half and has my numbers in check. It’s not w/o sides though esp brain fog. But I have found pregnenalone helps to offset that.

 

[Ouch]

I certainly believe you, but are you sure it was real?

Great question. Im wondering myself if it might be Mast. I bought based off of lab reports but did not personally test it myself. I asked Jano about sending in a vial but at this point I only have 1 left and am probably just going to run it for the next 5 weeks and then toss it. I’ve never done Mast but everything I’ve read about it does seem to correlate to my experience.

 

[VakarianSK]

If you have FH, I'm curious what your CAC score shows. Might as well get started with Repatha. Probably hard to get insurance to cover, but the copay card is easy to get.

IMHO, PCSK9 inhibitors are the best thing since statins.

Do you have experience with the copay card? I'm very interested in Repatha and I've heard it's hard to get a cardiologist to prescribe it due to insurance.

But then the same people say if you tell your cardiologist you will pay out of pocket then they usually have no problem prescribing it.

I applied and got a copay card already (even though I don't have a prescription yet because I am making my cardiologist appointment this week). Can I just tell my cardiologist I will pay out of pocket to get the prescription and then just use the copay card?

 

[buzzingonaas]

I’ll definitely report my results back. I’ll be 3 weeks post cycle when I get my test. I tried getting Repatha from previous Dr and insurance denied it. But I have a new doc (who ordered the cac for me) and I am going to ask him about it when I go over my test results.

Off cycle 20mg weekly of Rosuvastatin cuts my total in half and has my numbers in check. It’s not w/o sides though esp brain fog. But I have found pregnenalone helps to offset that.

Did your cardiologist just order the cac when you asked or did he/your insurance require labs? My lipids are alright right now but were a little nasty in the past and want to check but not sure insurance requirements. (My cardiologist knows I take gear and probably wouldn’t have an issue ordering one just based on that alone)

 

[Ouch]

Did your cardiologist just order the cac when you asked or did he/your insurance require labs? My lipids are alright right now but were a little nasty in the past and want to check but not sure insurance requirements. (My cardiologist knows I take gear and probably wouldn’t have an issue ordering one just based on that alone)

It wasn’t from a cardiologist, but from my new GP (actually I think he is a nurse practitioner). But he did work at a cardiologist office prior. He ordered it on my first visit actually after reviewing my past bloodwork history. I didn’t even ask he just suggested it.

Im a bit of a medical mystery/experiment when it comes to cholesterol stuff. I have family hyperlipidemia - so left untreated my numbers are through the roof…however, I was seeing a lipid specialist for years who had me undergo all types of tests.

One such test was where they measure the different sizes of cholesterol - both hdl and ldl actually come in 2 different sizes. So technically there’s 4 types of cholesterol - small (bad) and large/fluffy (good). So someone can have solid numbers on a regular test, but if the majority of the TYPE of cholesterol is the small kind then that can be troublesome.

For me, even though my numbers are ridiculous, the test showed I had mostly large/fluffy type. So I think this guy wants to see what’s inside…and Im happy about that.

I do think for insurance purposes there would need to be some type of history for them to cover it. Ymmv but that’s my experience with these assholes.

 

[egruberman]

I applied and got a copay card already (even though I don't have a prescription yet because I am making my cardiologist appointment this week). Can I just tell my cardiologist I will pay out of pocket to get the prescription and then just use the copay card?

This is precisely what I was going to do when I discovered that my insurance actually covers it. I can't confirm, but my understanding is that you get the Rx, and the copay covers what your insurance doesn't. I think it'll cover the whole thing. Another person on Meso has done this successfully.

One such test was where they measure the different sizes of cholesterol

Particle size matters. It is possible to have high LDL but not be at risk if the particles are the right size. However, a more precise measure of risk is to get ApoB which correlates linearly.

All of these biomarkers are available with an NMR lipid panel. I've had a hard time getting a doc to order one, so I just pay out of pocket. I get the Quest "CardioIQ" panel. I buy Quest labs through several online vendors and track my numbers through the Quest portal. The cheapest place I've found for that panel is walkinlabs.com where it's $135. I get one a year.

Did your cardiologist just order the cac when you asked or did he/your insurance require labs? My lipids are alright right now but were a little nasty in the past and want to check but not sure insurance requirements. (My cardiologist knows I take gear and probably wouldn’t have an issue ordering one just based on that alone)

A CAC is pretty cheap. I think it's a few hundred self-pay and most insurance will cover it with no complaints. The results are pretty easy to decipher. If one gets a non-zero result that's beyond the margin of error at anything below the age of 50, then aggressive lipid management is the intervention.

 

[Ouch]

This is precisely what I was going to do when I discovered that my insurance actually covers it. I can't confirm, but my understanding is that you get the Rx, and the copay covers what your insurance doesn't. I think it'll cover the whole thing. Another person on Meso has done this successfully.



Particle size matters. It is possible to have high LDL but not be at risk if the particles are the right size. However, a more precise measure of risk is to get ApoB which correlates linearly.

All of these biomarkers are available with an NMR lipid panel. I've had a hard time getting a doc to order one, so I just pay out of pocket. I get the Quest "CardioIQ" panel. I buy Quest labs through several online vendors and track my numbers through the Quest portal. The cheapest place I've found for that panel is walkinlabs.com where it's $135. I get one a year.


A CAC is pretty cheap. I think it's a few hundred self-pay and most insurance will cover it with no complaints. The results are pretty easy to decipher. If one gets a non-zero result that's beyond the margin of error at anything below the age of 50, then aggressive lipid management is the intervention.

Id love to know your background but understand you not wanting to share. But you have great info on this topic of lipids.

With your knowledge base, what kind of cycles do you run?

 

[egruberman]

Id love to know your background but understand you not wanting to share. But you have great info on this topic of lipids.

My background is not anything related to the field of medicine. I'm a life long auto-didact and I work in tech. My success in that field is the result of being able to absorb large quantities of information quickly. Occasionally things pique my interest and I learn everything I can about a topic. This leads to all kinds of quandaries, like the fact that I have more hobbies than any one person could hope to enjoy in a lifetime and have picked up whole trades like HVAC just because I had a project I wanted to do.

Lipidology was a thing that piqued my interest because it seemed like ASCVD was the thing that was going to kill me. There was no immediate risk, but the trend was there. Then I discovered that modern medical practice for lipid management didn't represent the literature very well and so I dug in.

With your knowledge base, what kind of cycles do you run?

I got started late in life. Been on TRT for a while and my first blast was this year. I ran 750mg/wk test c and primo on a 1:1 ratio for 20 weeks (1.5g total). HDL took a little dive. No other sides. BP was golden. Threw in 10mg oxandrolone BID sublingual for about 6 of those weeks.

Ran the whole stack throughout. Having access to Repatha is what gave me the confidence to lean on the anabolics that hard.

 

[Ouch]

My background is not anything related to the field of medicine. I'm a life long auto-didact and I work in tech. My success in that field is the result of being able to absorb large quantities of information quickly. Occasionally things pique my interest and I learn everything I can about a topic. This leads to all kinds of quandaries, like the fact that I have more hobbies than any one person could hope to enjoy in a lifetime and have picked up whole trades like HVAC just because I had a project I wanted to do.

Lipidology was a thing that piqued my interest because it seemed like ASCVD was the thing that was going to kill me. There was no immediate risk, but the trend was there. Then I discovered that modern medical practice for lipid management didn't represent the literature very well and so I dug in.



I got started late in life. Been on TRT for a while and my first blast was this year. I ran 750mg/wk test c and primo on a 1:1 ratio for 20 weeks (1.5g total). HDL took a little dive. No other sides. BP was golden. Threw in 10mg oxandrolone BID sublingual for about 6 of those weeks.

Ran the whole stack throughout. Having access to Repatha is what gave me the confidence to lean on the anabolics that hard.

Appreciate you sharing, whatever your background. Almost more impressive that you were able to run 1.5g for your first blast too.

 

[egruberman]

Appreciate you sharing, whatever your background. Almost more impressive that you were able to run 1.5g for your first blast too.

I wondered about that as well. Being old, only have a few in me and I figured I'd titrate up until I started seeing sides. I stopped there because that was 1ml per day and I didn't feel like switching to larger syringes.

I've a notion that it's because the genetic variant I have for the expression of CYP1A2 enzyme makes me an ultra rapid metabolizer of caffeine. Apparently the same enzyme is responsible for steroid metabolism. That's barely a theory, though as I can't find any literature that describes the expected pharmacokinetics of that enzyme and steroid metabolism. What does rapid metabolism actually mean in that context?

 

[Fattyone]

ultra rapid metabolizer of caffeine

What does this mean?

 

[VakarianSK]

My lipids were decent on blast, but I'm on a host of lipid lowering pharms. 10mg rosuvastatin, 10mg ezetimibe, 180mg bempedoic acid, and Repatha every couple weeks.

What were your lipids on this while blasting and did you check Apo B? Also what was your diet at the time you pulled labs like and how much added fat did you consume per day?

 

[egruberman]

What does this mean?

There's a liver enzyme called CYP1A2: CYP1A2 - Wikipedia encoded by a specific gene. I had a genetic test and my phenotype for that gene is known to yield fast metabolism of caffeine. I recently discovered that same gene is responsible for metabolising steroids.

What were your lipids on this while blasting and did you check Apo B? Also what was your diet at the time you pulled labs like and how much added fat did you consume per day?

ApoB was 60mg/dL

Diet is whole foods. I get about half my protein through whey. I try to keep fats relatively low.

 

[Fattyone]

There's a liver enzyme called CYP1A2: CYP1A2 - Wikipedia encoded by a specific gene. I had a genetic test and my phenotype for that gene is known to yield fast metabolism of caffeine. I recently discovered that same gene is responsible for metabolising steroids.



View attachment 289805

ApoB was 60mg/dL

Diet is whole foods. I get about half my protein through whey. I try to keep fats relatively low.

That sounds interesting. Was it like a 23 and me type test or something more specialized?

 

[buzzingonaas]

There's a liver enzyme called CYP1A2: CYP1A2 - Wikipedia encoded by a specific gene. I had a genetic test and my phenotype for that gene is known to yield fast metabolism of caffeine. I recently discovered that same gene is responsible for metabolising steroids.

Have you experienced that fast metabolism of caffeine in reality? Only asking since I hear a lot of contradicting info on the accuracy of specific genetic testing and have been considering it for myself

 

[VakarianSK]

There's a liver enzyme called CYP1A2: CYP1A2 - Wikipedia encoded by a specific gene. I had a genetic test and my phenotype for that gene is known to yield fast metabolism of caffeine. I recently discovered that same gene is responsible for metabolising steroids.



View attachment 289805

ApoB was 60mg/dL

Diet is whole foods. I get about half my protein through whey. I try to keep fats relatively low.

By relatively low are we talking like less than 50-60gs of added fats? Just curious as I like to crush my ldl and Apo B by only having trace fats from lean sources of chicken breast and white fish plus only 10g of added fats from EPA/DHA fish oil and I am looking to start a similar protocol that your doing to see if I can crush my apo b and ldl even lower.

 

[buzzingonaas]

By relatively low are we talking like less than 50-60gs of added fats? Just curious as I like to crush my ldl and Apo B by only having trace fats from lean sources of chicken breast and white fish plus only 10g of added fats from EPA/DHA fish oil and I am looking to start a similar protocol that your doing to see if I can crush my apo b and ldl even lower.

This worked pretty well for me as well, was eating pretty low fats and ldl finally dipped into normal. HDL i can’t get in true range no matter how much fish oil and cardio I do though

 

[Ouch]

Wver

This worked pretty well for me as well, was eating pretty low fats and ldl finally dipped into normal. HDL i can’t get in true range no matter how much fish oil and cardio I do thou

This worked pretty well for me as well, was eating pretty low fats and ldl finally dipped into normal. HDL i can’t get in true range no matter how much fish oil and cardio I do though

Ever get a test while taking Tamoxifen? I had read it can actually be beneficial for lipid profile and found It works wonders on my lipid panel somehow, especially HDL. I’ve just never felt it was safe to run long term. But I think Im about to add a low dose to my last 4 weeks of this cycle to boost hdl.