Primo vs. Mast

Primo is virtually interchangeable functionally with Mast. Both are relatively modest in their potency to transactivate mammalian AR, but Mast > Primo actually in this potency (33.2% the potency of DHT [Mast] vs. 28.75% the potency of DHT [Primo] per Houtman). Both are unfortunately subject to metabolism (breakdown in human skeletal muscle) by 3α-HSD, resulting in dramatically reduced skeletal muscle anabolism in human vs. rodent. Indeed, this similarity is shared by Proviron, and as such it is not unreasonable to mention Proviron (a far more potent AR agonist on paper than Mast or Primo) in the same discussion.

Where the two seem to differ functionally, is that Mast has been shown to prevent the uptake of estrogens into, e.g. breast cells, and is therefore a tissue-specific modulator of estrogenic activity (not unlike epitiostanol, the non-methylated counterpart of Epistane that is used clinically in Japan to treat gynecomastia). Primo may serve to reduce circulating estrogens by 17β-HSD1 inhibition (DHT has been shown to be a good ligand for this enzyme), and metenolone's more saturated/estrogen-like A-ring may confer some inhibitory potency for 17β-HSD1 [resulting in decreased E2]), and/or aromatase inhibition. There is insufficient evidence to state either with confidence presently. What matters is that both have good efficacy and attenuated androgenicity particularly in treatment-resistant advanced cancer of the breast. Mast fell out of favor because of its significantly greater androgenicity to Primo in women, however; hence the actual reason why it's not available commercially as a pharmaceutical preparation.

It's great that you are a student of medicine, I wish you all the best brother. Do be aware that bold confidence on this forum, as a practical AAS neophyte, will require that you do more than make appeals to authority of ongoing education, however. And do avoid the perils (I am not saying you have done so, but I think I see a tendency) of conflating absence of evidence with evidence of absence, a common logical pitfall or fallacy.

I disagree that Primo iS iNcOmPrEnSiBlY nOnCoMpArAbLe to Mast in practice. They are remarkably similar. While I think most do prefer Primo, as I do; this is largely because it's appealing to me that it has known advantageous cardiovascular effects versus testosterone (but absence of evidence for Mast is not evidence of absence for these effects), and that it is still commercially available in some markets as a pharmaceutical product. It does not follow that Primo is superior per se to Mast, however.

Indeed, if you investigate Primo (metenolone enanthate)'s safety profile using a tool like FAFDrugs4tool, you may be surprised to learn that it fails to comply with the GlaxoSmithKline 4/400 Rule, Lilly Med Chem Rules, in addition to Pfizer's 3/75 Rule on logP, and is thus regarded as an unsafe and therefore unapproved medicine under many international and national standards.
Thanks for that info, it’s very helpful. You found all of this in English? Couldn’t find these studies as you while looking on Pubmed.

Reason I felt confident about this is a lot of anecdotal evidence from other pros(only a few)/amateur competitors.
My best guess is that people make best use of whatever they find locally, but again, in practice most people I got to ask about this have stated that they’d use primo for bulk (and very often do), if they can find enough of it, or cut, or recomp, while they’d stay away from Mast unless they’re prepping for a show, cutting, prepping for a photo shoot. Now it could be related to the fact that Primo is considered more mild in its side effects unless you crush E2 transcription, or the fact that it’s so more anabolic, but that’s just what I’ve heard over and over again. Don’t have a reason to make this up, I’m not sponsored by Bayer Lol.
 
I disagree that Primo iS iNcOmPrEnSiBlY nOnCoMpArAbLe to Mast in practice. They are remarkably similar. While I think most do prefer Primo, as I do; this is largely because it's appealing to me that it has known advantageous cardiovascular effects versus testosterone (but absence of evidence for Mast is not evidence of absence for these effects), and that it is still commercially available in some markets as a pharmaceutical product. It does not follow that Primo is superior per se to Mast, however.
Advantageous cardiovascular effects.. as in smaller effects in lipid levels?
 
Advantageous cardiovascular effects.. as in smaller effects in lipid levels?
Primo (unlike Test & several other AAS compounds) has no inhibitory effect on 11β-HSD2-mediated cortisol oxidation. Its inhibition leads to glucocorticoid-mediated MR activation, potassium excretion, sodium and water retention, and increased blood pressure.
 
Primo (unlike Test & several other AAS compounds) has no inhibitory effect on 11β-HSD2-mediated cortisol oxidation. Its inhibition leads to glucocorticoid-mediated MR activation, potassium excretion, sodium and water retention, and increased blood pressure.
This is interesting. Which AAS do and which don’t? Interestingly my cycle of 130ish test U and 450 mast E last year resulted in “sock marks”, whereas this year’s cycle of 175mg test U and 245mg mast E hasn’t so far.

I’m wondering whether primo will act similarly.
 
This is interesting. Which AAS do and which don’t? Interestingly my cycle of 130ish test U and 450 mast E last year resulted in “sock marks”, whereas this year’s cycle of 175mg test U and 245mg mast E hasn’t so far.

I’m wondering whether primo will act similarly.
You're not completely off-base by linking peripheral edema to 11β-HSD2 inhibition, but mild edema of this sort could by caused by a plethora of factors. There's a weak significant correlation between 24-hr creatinine clearance and renal 11β-HSD2 expression; at least it'd be a more sensitive proxy than "socks marks." You can see the tested AAS and results in Furstenberger, C., Vuorinen, A., Da Cunha, T., Kratschmar, D. V., Saugy, M., Schuster, D., & Odermatt, A. (2012). The Anabolic Androgenic Steroid Fluoxymesterone Inhibits 11 -Hydroxysteroid Dehydrogenase 2-Dependent Glucocorticoid Inactivation. Toxicological Sciences, 126(2), 353–361. doi:10.1093/toxsci/kfs022.
 
Same here, I only use Bayer Primo. A few local pros that go to the same gym as me say that they prefer Primo any day over Mast, and they only use Mast for hardness/prep/E2 managing, while Primo is pretty much used year around. It’s the general consensus at local shows that I’ve attended also and the people I talked to that pharma Primo is just more anabolic and pharma is pharma, like you said.
What kind of doses of Rimo do you use for bulking and cutting? And what do you combine it with?

I did speak with good amateur who combines nandrolone with Rimo to bulk. Around 500 testosterone, 200 nandrolone and 200 Rimo per week to start with. Then increases the doses every couple weeks.

Likewise for the pros at your gym. Thanks
 
What kind of doses of Rimo do you use for bulking and cutting? And what do you combine it with?
200mg per week is sufficient as a starting dose but they recommend 400 mg as a good dose for growth. Primo is amazing for growth even at this low of a dose, but they all say you need to run it for 20-30 weeks to see growth. Also no water retention or CNS effects, so you don't "feel" like you're growing like on Anadrol or even high Test.
So goal is permanent long term gains with primo. Yes, NPP or Deca are quite common to combine with primo during bulk at 300mg/wk as a starting dose and primo at 500-800. These are peak dosages people use, not starting dosages.
Most people throw in GH and Oxandrolone on top of primo during contest prep. A pro I'm friends with uses 4 IU's of GH, 400-700 mg Primo, 500-1000 Test and Turinabol for contest prep, kicking in 200 mg of Teen Ace for the last 4 weeks.
Also, some of them are miscalculating primo dose Lol. They say they take 1 ampoule - which is supposed to be 100 mg per ml (bayer rimobolan), but Bayer always overfills primo amps. You get 1.2-1.5ml per ampoule, so unless you draw it in separate syringes, you'll be taking more than you think.
 
I’ve seen guys on here with decades of cycling under their belt recommend high test high deca cycles and then not understanding why their libido is dead.
@kakaboom!21
In your opinion, what is the best way to utilise high deca (e.g. 800-1000mg) for maximum growth?
What is the best way to avoid reducing libido when using high deca?
 
In your opinion, what is the best way to utilise high deca (e.g. 800-1000mg) for maximum growth?
What is the best way to avoid reducing libido when using high deca?
It depends on the person, there’s a few people on here blasting high test high deca having no libido issues.
The reason why deca causes libido issues is because of how it interacts with prolactin and estrogen, in a way it amplifies estrogenic sides. So I wouldn’t run Test higher than TRT on a deca cycle. Never heard of deca only libido issues.
From all my research what I plan to run next year is 300-800 mg deca only for 20 weeks, and if I get low E2 on blood work (which I probably will at some point) I will just add 25-50 mg of Test per week. That should be sufficient to keep my estrogen within reference range yet not cause libido issues.
Some guys on here recommend running deca with test and primo at equal dosages, and primo being reversely binding AI may do the trick of keeping E2 sides at bay, while on deca. But I myself wouldn’t experiment too much for now, it’s a lot of compounds at once for an AAS beginner like me.
 
Primo drops e2 a lot more then Masteron in my experience. Also screws with my libido and my head a bit. Most faked steroid available, real stuff you will feel it at even 200-300 mg per week.
Agreed. Legit primo at 600%mg per week gave me the best aesthetically pleasing look hands down and I’ve used everything.
 
For me..
mast
Pros- seems to protect me from gyno flairs up even with estrogen out of range. I have a better libido with mast. I’m more aggressive with mast. Little but if strength gain. Crazy erections. Shit is almost better than cialis for me.

Cons- doesn’t add fullness. Risk of looking flat.

Primo..
Pros- much fuller, better “look” than mast. . Doesn’t feel like I’m on anything really but seems to add more dense muscle than mast.
Lowers e2

Cons- expensive, not super great for my libido.. also lowers e2

All this is just my experience. Also, I’m bald so can’t speak on hairless. Gave up on that a long time ago.
That’s pretty much how I see it. Primo give me a much nicer look where I actually look leaner and more tapered but my muscles are full. Masteron tends to make me look flat and I just don’t like how I look. I think it depends on the person because I know some guys tgat look great on masteron.
 
Primo is virtually interchangeable functionally with Mast. Both are relatively modest in their potency to transactivate mammalian AR, but Mast > Primo actually in this potency (33.2% the potency of DHT [Mast] vs. 28.75% the potency of DHT [Primo] per Houtman). Both are unfortunately subject to metabolism (breakdown in human skeletal muscle) by 3α-HSD, resulting in dramatically reduced skeletal muscle anabolism in human vs. rodent. Indeed, this similarity is shared by Proviron, and as such it is not unreasonable to mention Proviron (a far more potent AR agonist on paper than Mast or Primo) in the same discussion.

Where the two seem to differ functionally, is that Mast has been shown to prevent the uptake of estrogens into, e.g. breast cells, and is therefore a tissue-specific modulator of estrogenic activity (not unlike epitiostanol, the non-methylated counterpart of Epistane that is used clinically in Japan to treat gynecomastia). Primo may serve to reduce circulating estrogens by 17β-HSD1 inhibition (DHT has been shown to be a good ligand for this enzyme), and metenolone's more saturated/estrogen-like A-ring may confer some inhibitory potency for 17β-HSD1 [resulting in decreased E2]), and/or aromatase inhibition. There is insufficient evidence to state either with confidence presently. What matters is that both have good efficacy and attenuated androgenicity particularly in treatment-resistant advanced cancer of the breast. Mast fell out of favor because of its significantly greater androgenicity to Primo in women, however; hence the actual reason why it's not available commercially as a pharmaceutical preparation.

It's great that you are a student of medicine, I wish you all the best brother. Do be aware that bold confidence on this forum, as a practical AAS neophyte, will require that you do more than make appeals to authority of ongoing education, however. And do avoid the perils (I am not saying you have done so, but I think I see a tendency) of conflating absence of evidence with evidence of absence, a common logical pitfall or fallacy.

I disagree that Primo iS iNcOmPrEnSiBlY nOnCoMpArAbLe to Mast in practice. They are remarkably similar. While I think most do prefer Primo, as I do; this is largely because it's appealing to me that it has known advantageous cardiovascular effects versus testosterone (but absence of evidence for Mast is not evidence of absence for these effects), and that it is still commercially available in some markets as a pharmaceutical product. It does not follow that Primo is superior per se to Mast, however.

Indeed, if you investigate Primo (metenolone enanthate)'s safety profile using a tool like FAFDrugs4tool, you may be surprised to learn that it fails to comply with the GlaxoSmithKline 4/400 Rule, Lilly Med Chem Rules, in addition to Pfizer's 3/75 Rule on logP, and is thus regarded as an unsafe and therefore unapproved medicine under many international and national standards.
I completely disagree with this slthough you are far more knowledgeable than I am on the subject. This is the same thing an IFBB pro who was Also very knowledgeable told me as well about 8 year ago. I realize in theory they should be very similar but I’ve used both drugs extensively and got quite different results. With LEGIT primo I always achieved the best aesthetic look in my life whereas with masteron it just didn’t give me the same fullness. I always got almost a flat look as it dried me out more. Never liked the look because it really drew attention to imperfections in my physique. my abdomen would look more distended because the chest would be more dried out along with everything else.wheras with primo I just get a fuller, bigger look but tapered and nicely toned at the same time. Any idea why ?
 
For me..
mast
Pros- seems to protect me from gyno flairs up even with estrogen out of range. I have a better libido with mast. I’m more aggressive with mast. Little but if strength gain. Crazy erections. Shit is almost better than cialis for me.

Cons- doesn’t add fullness. Risk of looking flat.

Primo..
Pros- much fuller, better “look” than mast. . Doesn’t feel like I’m on anything really but seems to add more dense muscle than mast.
Lowers e2

Cons- expensive, not super great for my libido.. also lowers e2

All this is just my experience. Also, I’m bald so can’t speak on hairless. Gave up on that a long time ago.
How would you compare DHB to primo?
 
I completely disagree with this slthough you are far more knowledgeable than I am on the subject. This is the same thing an IFBB pro who was Also very knowledgeable told me as well about 8 year ago. I realize in theory they should be very similar but I’ve used both drugs extensively and got quite different results. With LEGIT primo I always achieved the best aesthetic look in my life whereas with masteron it just didn’t give me the same fullness. I always got almost a flat look as it dried me out more. Never liked the look because it really drew attention to imperfections in my physique. my abdomen would look more distended because the chest would be more dried out along with everything else.wheras with primo I just get a fuller, bigger look but tapered and nicely toned at the same time. Any idea why ?
I think his response is more geared toward anabolism

I did notice a different look in the mirror off of primo than masteron, even at a bf of 20+. I would assume it would be greater at a low BF
 
Primo (unlike Test & several other AAS compounds) has no inhibitory effect on 11β-HSD2-mediated cortisol oxidation. Its inhibition leads to glucocorticoid-mediated MR activation, potassium excretion, sodium and water retention, and increased blood pressure.
Agree with this 100% one of my major concerns is the volume Of oil injected into my body over a long period of time. I’m almost more worried about that than the side effects from steroids itself. Meaning- if I knew what I was getting was 100% straight from a pharmacy and legitimate- I’d be less paranoid. But I had primo amps from turkey 10 years ago and after 4 weeks at 600mg along with test and other gear obviously- the look it gave me was phenomenal. Very little water retention ant that was from the test. Just a great look minus the water retention and no redness of my face from related high bp
 
Agreed. Legit primo at 600%mg per week gave me the best aesthetically pleasing look hands down and I’ve used everything.
That was my point, and most people on here disagree because in certain areas they do seem similar, but ask any guy at my local gym who’ve used primo and mast and they’ll laugh at you if you compare their effects.
Mind you, they have 0 knowledge of how the drugs they use actually work, they just inject and look at results. And the results are not the same, at least cosmetically, not even close.
I don’t know if some people on here keep getting mast relabeled as primo so to them they’re exactly the same, except for the sides.
6 weeks into my Bayer primo cycle right now and at 425 mg the fullness I get even when depleted is absolutely amazing. 0 sides, like you said. I feel like I’m not even blasting tbh.
 
200mg per week is sufficient as a starting dose but they recommend 400 mg as a good dose for growth. Primo is amazing for growth even at this low of a dose, but they all say you need to run it for 20-30 weeks to see growth. Also no water retention or CNS effects, so you don't "feel" like you're growing like on Anadrol or even high Test.
So goal is permanent long term gains with primo.
Christ I can’t wait to try it!

I’ve really liked a 20 week cycle in the past - no need to rush increasing weights on lifts, add some reps, take it slow & no injuries.

I’m on 80mg prescribed TRT but I get a lot of side effects from just 250 testosterone a week, but very few sides and lots of gains from anabolics like nandrolone.

So I’d like to use the minimum testosterone with Rimo for healthy E2 and no more.

Although I actually have estradiol gel available

How would you go about trying Rimo for the first time like that?

I was thinking of adding 100mg Rimo to my 80 Cypionate and getting bloods to see how it changes my E2 from its usual spot. Then adjust from there.

How would you increase E2 if Rimo has a large effect on E2?

Thanks again
 
Last edited:
You do all understand that individual response in each compound is the major factor to the outcome, right?

There are dudes that run 1g test and get no side effects and the poor bastard that goes to half that and all hell brakes loose.
 
You do all understand that individual response in each compound is the major factor to the outcome, right?

There are dudes that run 1g test and get no side effects and the poor bastard that goes to half that and all hell brakes loose.
Just like some people on 700mg of tren that don't feel shit but some people do 250 and want to die
 

Sponsors

Latest posts

Back
Top