Pro-Choice vs. Pro-Life

[Bob Smith]

How is it not murder when the fetus is 100% viable and able to live on its own if it is taken from the mother? There comes a point when a fetus can be self-sustaining outside of the mother, even if it doesnt make it all the way to 40 weeks. How is killing that not murder?

 

[Grizzly]

I would say mainly because the human prohibition against murder is an emotional one rather than an objective one. It has little to nothing to do with the actual cessation of life. We abhor murder because WE don't want to die, nor do we want our family members, friends, etc. whom are close to us to no longer be around. This is why we hate murder.

We find it completely palatable to kill a murderer in our system of retributive justice. We find "pulling the plug" to be fine because it's "in his/her best interest."

Obviously, the prohibition against murder is more emotional than cerebral. Thus, since the mother doesn't want the baby, thus will not miss it and the fetus does not have a consciousness to know that it is going to die, then it can't be murder.

Furthermore, if we'll accept the "best interest" reason, then any child of my siring is, by far, better off being aborted at this moment. I can barely afford myself, let alone support another 2 human beings.

 

[CyniQ]

thanks..now I feel like shit

Yeah. That's pretty much my point.

 

[Bob Smith]

Then based on what youve said, human life has absolutely zero value whatsoever.

 

[CyniQ]

We find it completely palatable to kill a murderer in our system of retributive justice. We find "pulling the plug" to be fine because it's "in his/her best interest."

Obviously, the prohibition against murder is more emotional than cerebral. Thus, since the mother doesn't want the baby, thus will not miss it and the fetus does not have a consciousness to know that it is going to die, then it can't be murder.

Furthermore, if we'll accept the "best interest" reason, then any child of my siring is, by far, better off being aborted at this moment. I can barely afford myself, let alone support another 2 human beings.

Consciousness has nothing to do with it. If you're asleep (unconscious) and I sneak into your house and kill you. Then can I not be charged with murder merely because you did not realize that you were being murdered?

 

[Grizzly]

That's a different form of consciousness. I'm talking awareness and you know it.

 

[CyniQ]

Then based on what youve said, human life has absolutely zero value whatsoever.

Agreed. And who's to say when life begins? A child has a pulse at like 19 days (somewhere around there). How we consider the least of us is what makes us civilized. It is the essence of humanity. In some sense anyway.

 

[Grizzly]

Then based on what youve said, human life has absolutely zero value whatsoever.

Nope, I don't quite think I said that. I'll have to re-read it to check, though.

 

[Bob Smith]

That's a different form of consciousness. I'm talking awareness and you know it.

But if you are asleep then you are unaware and wouldnt know that you are dead.

 

[Bob Smith]

Agreed. And who's to say when life begins? A child has a pulse at like 19 days (somewhere around there). How we consider the least of us is what makes us civilized. It is the essence of humanity. In some sense anyway.

Thats why I mentioned viability rather than arguing about when life begins. Im sure we can all roughly agree on viability.

 

[Grizzly]

Agreed. And who's to say when life begins? A child has a pulse at like 19 days (somewhere around there). How we consider the least of us is what makes us civilized. It is the essence of humanity. In some sense anyway.

Terri Schiavo had a pulse. Like an embryo of 19 days, Terri Schiavo's life was inextricably tied to a tube which was that which sustained her. Her feeding tube was the equivalent of cord-thingy(goddamnit, what's the name?) that shuttles nutrients from the mother to the embryo. Both an embryo and Schiavo had the same level of awareness. We pulled her tube, so where's the harm in pulling the tube from an embryo?

edit- actually, Schiavo's awareness was probably slightly higher.

 

[CyniQ]

That's a different form of consciousness. I'm talking awareness and you know it.

Yeah. I know, but still. It's falacious reasoning. How do you differentiate between a fetus and a baby?

Do you differentiate between an unripe tomato and a ripe one? Is the unripe fruit not yet a tomato?

By inpregnating a woman you have initiated a process that will result in a new life. Once those things have been set in motion, no matter what you want to call it. It's a baby.

 

[Grizzly]

That MAY result in a new life. There are many, many things that could go wrong during pregnancy. Anyhow, I'm on my way out the door. Your homework tonight is to go home and think of all the ways in which you two are wrong and praise the mighty name of the omniscient Grizzly as your penance.

 

[CyniQ]

I think having a child really alters your view on this subject. The woman involved in the Rowe vs. Wade stuff is now a Pro-Life activist. The decision wasn't made in time for her to abort her baby. After her child was birthed, she changed her mind about the whole thing. Now she, supposedly, spends her time trying to undo what she did.

 

[roadkill]

more debate

if we in fact have souls, at what point does the soul connect to the new child? At birth? at conception? somwhere in between. Is it murder to terminate a souless lifeform? What about a cloned human? I'm sure if it has not been covertly done already, it soon will be. Much to try to comprehend.

 

[MANWHORE]

if we in fact have souls, at what point does the soul connect to the new child? At birth? at conception? somwhere in between. Is it murder to terminate a souless lifeform? What about a cloned human? I'm sure if it has not been covertly done already, it soon will be. Much to try to comprehend.

lol that's deep bro
The soul is with the fetus when it becomes a living organism ... I really think it depends where someone lives that will have an effect on how they feel about abortion. If you live in Pleasantville you may not like the idea but if you live near the projects,you may want to see more of it .. sorry about the joke on this subject but it is the truth

 

[Grizzly]

Thats why I mentioned viability rather than arguing about when life begins. Im sure we can all roughly agree on viability.

No, I'm not quite sure we all can. Viability means the fetus "could" survive outside of the mother... with 35 thousand dollars worth of intensive care.

It seems to me that life is somehow tied to actually being physically present in this world. So, as far as I can tell, you're not alive until you are breathing the air of this physical realm. I mean, the phrase is "a living, BREATHING, such and such."

Moreover, why are people so goddamned concerned about someone who doesn't even exist yet? If you're such a huge humanitarian, then why the fuck don't you take some of your extra cash and send a poor kid to college? What, people don't matter once they are alive? They're only important when they are a pile of malformed goo that you all can have a kiniption fit over? Pro-lifers spend more time worrying about someone who MIGHT live, given a flawless pregnancy, than they do about those who are actually living.

For the record, no, I don't care about poor, starving Somalians either. And I sure as hell don't care about a fetus. Unless it's mine and I want it, which brings me back to the point about murder being abhorrent only in an emotional sense.

 

[Grizzly]

Yeah. I know, but still. It's falacious reasoning. How do you differentiate between a fetus and a baby?

Do you differentiate between an unripe tomato and a ripe one? Is the unripe fruit not yet a tomato?

By inpregnating a woman you have initiated a process that will result in a new life. Once those things have been set in motion, no matter what you want to call it. It's a baby.

Of course, you differentiate between them. You don't keep the unripe tomatoes. Sort of like a....

 

[CyniQ]

Of course, you differentiate between them. You don't keep the unripe tomatoes. Sort of like a....

Do you have another name for an unripe tomato so that you can FEEL better about discarding it? Is it a "fetato"? "tomatus" maybe?

Even amoebas are LIVING organisms. I give plenty to charity. I even used to volunteer at an old folks home. Admittedly, I've been a little busy for that recently. Of course, I seem to find time to engage in meaningless banter with you. But, if I didn't do this I'd be arguing with my wife all the time

 

[Grizzly]

I don't need another name for it. Your analogy is faulty. An unripe tomato is analogous to an adolescent human. A seed would be more appropriate for a fetus. And well all know what we do with watermelon seeds.