Q for Dr. Scally regarding HPTA recovery...

[Mike Oxbig]

I'm about 3 weeks into my PCT from a 12 week tren ace/mast prop/test prop cycle run at roughly 350-400mg/week congruently. I never ran HCG(mainly due to the fact that I never experienced any notable testicular atrophy) and FWIW am 24 and have had zero libido issues during PCT.

I regretfully never obtained baseline pre-cycle bloodwork. Although I obviously don't have the benefit of using bloodwork for trending purposes I will be getting it done in about 6 weeks just to see where I'm at.

The question I have is what are possible consequences of running a single cycle prior to recovery. We all know what can happen when this is done long-term, but what if the second premature cycle is proceeded by a long recovery period(6-9 months?) Would this just result in a long(er) recovery from the second cycle or is there something inherently damaging to shutting one's self down again prior to recovering?

The reason I ask is that due to my job in future traveling it would be much adventitious for me to complete a cycle around September. I was considering the idea of starting an 8 week long tren cycle about 6-8 weeks after completion of my PCT. I am unlikely to be fully recovered by then but would be taking an exceptionally long break prior to starting a third cycle.

Does this line of thinking sound like it would interfere with proper HPTA recovery?

 

[Mike Oxbig]

Advice from others would be appreciated as well. I'm just trying to get some information from someone with a more thorough HPTA comprehension than myself.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

I'm about 3 weeks into my PCT from a 12 week tren ace/mast prop/test prop cycle run at roughly 350-400mg/week congruently. I never ran HCG(mainly due to the fact that I never experienced any notable testicular atrophy) and FWIW am 24 and have had zero libido issues during PCT.

I regretfully never obtained baseline pre-cycle bloodwork. Although I obviously don't have the benefit of using bloodwork for trending purposes I will be getting it done in about 6 weeks just to see where I'm at.

The question I have is what are possible consequences of running a single cycle prior to recovery. We all know what can happen when this is done long-term, but what if the second premature cycle is proceeded by a long recovery period(6-9 months?) Would this just result in a long(er) recovery from the second cycle or is there something inherently damaging to shutting one's self down again prior to recovering?

The reason I ask is that due to my job in future traveling it would be much adventitious for me to complete a cycle around September. I was considering the idea of starting an 8 week long tren cycle about 6-8 weeks after completion of my PCT. I am unlikely to be fully recovered by then but would be taking an exceptionally long break prior to starting a third cycle.

Does this line of thinking sound like it would interfere with proper HPTA recovery?

I do not fully understand the post. The most important part of "PCT" are labs. Without as a minimum a normal LH & TT all bets are off as to HPTA restoration. When you say you are "unlikely to be fully recovered," the question is why even do the PCT? It would seem the better recourse is to run a longer cycle and fully recover.

I would stress, encourage, recommend, ... all obtain a LH & TT at baseline if possible. Since this is typically not done, always obtain a LH & TT after a cycle when you believe there to be HPTA restoration . It is so simple and easy and far far better then ending up with NO BALLS (AIH). After all, the idea is to gain muscle and keep your nuts, NOT lose them. IMO, it is a real contradiction to work hard at increasing muscle mass and strength by AAS, yet lose or not care about the one thing that defines a man. JMHO

[BTW: This seemed like an appropriate thread to have my 10,000 post. Thanks Meso. Stay Healthy.]

 

[HawkG]

"After all, the idea is to gain muscle and keep your nuts, NOT lose them."

Word to live by...

 

[Mike Oxbig]

Got your PM. Thank you for the reply. I pre-payed for TT/LH bloodwork about a week ago but am still contemplating when exactly to get it done. My last injection was 04/16, I was thinking sometime in the neighborhood of 07/10 or so.

Having no pre-cycle bloodword done I suppose really the only thing I have to go off is 'averages' of those in my age bracket.

 

[CensoredBoardsSuck]

[BTW: This seemed like an appropriate thread to have my 10,000 post. Thanks, Meso. Stay Healthy.]

ostwhore:


Just kidding, Doc. I've enjoyed reading and learned a lot from your posts and I look forward to another 10,000.
Congratulations!
CBS

 

[Mike Oxbig]

Cycle ended 10 weeks ago as of yesterday. I did 4 weeks of PCT and 2 weeks later decided to do 1 more week of 50mg Clomid/20mg of Nolva just to be sure I got up to baseline.

I waited 3 weeks prior to getting the below labs and TT/LH/E2 are all through the roof. Looks like labs may of been a bit premature.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Are you still on SERMs for the labs? If not, when were they stopped?

 

[Mike Oxbig]

Are you still on SERMs for the labs? If not, when were they stopped?

I ceased use 3 weeks ago.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

I ceased use 3 weeks ago.

Let this be instructional to all for just how long SERMs remain active! [Also, note the rise in E2 with SERMs.]

 

[Mike Oxbig]

According to Dr. Jim the isomer responsible for most of the effects of Clomid has a half life of 24 hours and SHOULD be a non-issue after 2 weeks. With a 5-7 day half life Nolva should theoretically be down to only a few mg after 3 weeks, theoretically being the key word I suppose.

I knew SERMs would reflect SOMEWHAT on my results but at 3 weeks I certainly wasn't anticipating them causing dramatic shifts of my values. It is what it is I guess.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

According to Dr. Jim the isomer responsible for most of the effects of Clomid has a half life of 24 hours and SHOULD be a non-issue after 2 weeks. With a 5-7 day half life Nolva should theoretically be down to only a few mg after 3 weeks, theoretically being the key word I suppose.

I knew SERMs would reflect SOMEWHAT on my results but at 3 weeks I certainly wasn't anticipating them causing dramatic shifts of my values. It is what it is I guess.

The labs speak for themselves.

 

[Mike Oxbig]

Against my better judgment I started a 12 week tren e/test e cycle almost immediately after I got my labs. These are my current labs that were done 7-8 weeks post PCT.

I think I'll be running a bit of Clomid for a few more weeks and then re-testing. Unfortunately I don't have baseline labs to compare them to.

Edit- The forum won't let me hotlink it in an appropriate size. It's readable if you open the attachment.

 

[cellis]

Let this be instructional to all for just how long SERMs remain active! [Also, note the rise in E2 with SERMs.]

So I take it, then, that this is the answer to my question posed a while ago. SERMs like nolvadex et. al. DO ACTUALLY raise levels of E2?

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Against my better judgment I started a 12 week tren e/test e cycle almost immediately after I got my labs. These are my current labs that were done 7-8 weeks post PCT.

I think I'll be running a bit of Clomid for a few more weeks and then re-testing. Unfortunately I don't have baseline labs to compare them to.

Edit- The forum won't let me hotlink it in an appropriate size. It's readable if you open the attachment.

What is the TT? Is it 800+?

 

[Michael Scally MD]

So I take it, then, that this is the answer to my question posed a while ago. SERMs like nolvadex et. al. DO ACTUALLY raise levels of E2?

SERMs do raise E2. Where did you get the idea they do not?

 

[youngBuilder]

What is the TT? Is it 800+?

Looks like his labs say:

-Testosterone, Serum: 518, (348-1197 ng/dL)
-LH: 3.6, (1.7 - 8.6 mIU/mL)
-E2: 26.5


He looks recovered to me.

 

[Mike Oxbig]

Looks like his labs say:

-Testosterone, Serum: 518, (348-1197 ng/dL)
-LH: 3.6, (1.7 - 8.6 mIU/mL)
-E2: 26.5


He looks recovered to me.

To me the values seem a bit low for a 24 year old, but yes, those are the correct values. FWIW my FSH value is also 2.3.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Looks like his labs say:

-Testosterone, Serum: 518, (348-1197 ng/dL)
-LH: 3.6, (1.7 - 8.6 mIU/mL)
-E2: 26.5


He looks recovered to me.

To me the values seem a bit low for a 24 year old, but yes, those are the correct values. FWIW my FSH value is also 2.3.

I agree. I need some new glasses!!!

 

[TheGuy85]

To me the values seem a bit low for a 24 year old, but yes, those are the correct values. FWIW my FSH value is also 2.3.

Yeah your in the same boat as me my baseline is/was 539 and I only got a couple years on you. We should be in the 600s baseline honestly, as that is the average at our age . We are just some old young fellas. I always thought you were older! Dont know why but you fooled me.