Qingdao Sigma Chemical Co., Ltd (International, US, EU, Canada and Australia domestic

[Qingdao Sigma Chemicals]

Lol love the names of the color tops, too bad you already said you won't respond to questions of which is which. Would really mess with someone trying to figure out which kit is which when they have to figure out the difference between "peacock blue", "mid blue" and "lapis blue"

That's why I make sure to include the pictures in the lab reports.

 

[bighunanballs]

I decided to let this thread stew for a while, and it didn't disappoint.

You've been demanding, aggressively, that I have tests done regarding my claims about the effectiveness of "Terminal Sterilization" to make gear safer for end users and the high levels of endotoxin contamination I'm confident exist in UGL and homebrew gear.

I fully intend to. This is more complicated and much costlier than a simple AAS qualitative/quantitive measurement and I've had to do some legwork to establish what the process involved is.

But before I go into details of the testing procedure, what exactly are you alleging I'm wrong about?

1. Terminal Sterilization, which for Test Cyp is specified as 160c for 2 hours, will reduce bacterial contamination to 1 part per million, the FDA standard for human injectables.

2. The FDA safe limit of 3.5 Endotoxin Units per mg of test will be exceeded in homebrew and UGL gear.

I just want to make sure, as I'm sure you are, that when you're proven right and I'm proven guilty of "misinformation" we know what the goalposts are so there's no doubt in anyone's mind about how wrong I am.

Is it that Terminal Sterilization will not be proven to be effective protection for the end user against bacterially contaminated gear? Bacterial contamination from something like a filter defect, a pre-sterilized vial that's bad, or any other mistake made in home brewing or a UGL?

And in the case of endotoxin, are you saying vials of homebrew and UGL won't exceed the 3.5 EUs per mg of testosterone safe level specified by the FDA? I suspect it'll be ten times higher than the safety limit or more.

Once we define what you're expecting to be proven or disproven by these tests we can discuss the process I've put together and make any changes necessary to meet your requirements.

Unfortunately you might create more endotoxins via terminal sterilization techniques. It really requires 180c for 3 hours to render terminal sterilization AND inactivate endotoxins. Lower heat sterilization techniques simply kill gram neg organisms can cause a release of more endotoxins.

Interestingly Vig Steve, Dean St mart and Kurt havens just did a roundtable discussion and glossed over some of the heavy metal and bacterial contamination issues you've espoused. In the cannabis industry we use types of chromatography, liquid/liquid washes, distillation techniques etc to clean up hemp and cannabis extracts from endotoxins, bacteria, pesticides, heavy metals etc.

 

[HereToTeachAndLearn]

Unfortunately you might create more endotoxins via terminal sterilization techniques. It really requires 180c for 3 hours to render terminal sterilization AND inactivate endotoxins. Lower heat sterilization techniques simply kill gram neg organisms can cause a release of more endotoxins.

Interestingly Vig Steve, Dean St mart and Kurt havens just did a roundtable discussion and glossed over some of the heavy metal and bacterial contamination issues you've espoused. In the cannabis industry we use types of chromatography, liquid/liquid washes, distillation techniques etc to clean up hemp and cannabis extracts from endotoxins, bacteria, pesticides, heavy metals etc.

This might be of interest, maybe not: https://arlok.com/sites/default/files/Dry Heat Sterilization of Parenteral Oil Vehicles.pdf

 

[Justaguy99]

Will test GB happen again?
Sorry if asked 30x.

 

[bighunanballs]

This might be of interest, maybe not: https://arlok.com/sites/default/files/Dry Heat Sterilization of Parenteral Oil Vehicles.pdf

Thanks for the link. I'm not denying the lower temp for shorter time period isn't sufficient for "sterilization" my position is simply that the lower temperature while destroying the cell walls of said bacterial spores is sufficient, it's not sufficient to render the endotoxins of the cell walls of decayed bacteria cells denatured. In fact it will actually release more endotoxins unless you heat sufficiently to destroy the endotoxins. Now whether or not this high prolonged heat will denature the hormones themselves that would require more research than I'm willing to throw at this question. In over 25 years of Homebrewing I've yet to ever terminally sterilize my end product, the BA and .22 micron filtering does all that's necessary. Will 25 years of slow minute heavy metals and endotoxin exposure get me? Who knows, with all the contaminated supplements, greens, produce, fluoride, meats, processed foods etc I'm assuming it's cumulative effects over many years of everything we do adds up. I'm not too worried about the supplements and most people aren't, I don't think these hormones are magnitudes worse than the food and water we ingest daily.

 

[SpaceForce]

@Qingdao Sigma Chemicals any plans for Danuglipron, Rybelsus, or Orforglipron (oral GLPs)?

 

[ksm2]

New lab test reports, New items added, and some real ones that tests often fake ! ​

Do you plan to offer PCSK9 inhibitors anytime soon?
Or it's too hard and unprofitable to produce? Any comment on that would be good

 

[Middus]

Thanks for the link. I'm not denying the lower temp for shorter time period isn't sufficient for "sterilization" my position is simply that the lower temperature while destroying the cell walls of said bacterial spores is sufficient, it's not sufficient to render the endotoxins of the cell walls of decayed bacteria cells denatured. In fact it will actually release more endotoxins unless you heat sufficiently to destroy the endotoxins. Now whether or not this high prolonged heat will denature the hormones themselves that would require more research than I'm willing to throw at this question. In over 25 years of Homebrewing I've yet to ever terminally sterilize my end product, the BA and .22 micron filtering does all that's necessary. Will 25 years of slow minute heavy metals and endotoxin exposure get me? Who knows, with all the contaminated supplements, greens, produce, fluoride, meats, processed foods etc I'm assuming it's cumulative effects over many years of everything we do adds up. I'm not too worried about the supplements and most people aren't, I don't think these hormones are magnitudes worse than the food and water we ingest daily.

Correct.
In addition, we need to realize that Sterility and Endotoxins are two different things.

It's like when they tell people to toss frozen turkey that was left to thaw outside for too long. You may choose to roast the turkey to the point where it's bone-in turkey jerkey, but if the heat doesn't denature the bacterial proteins, you're going to be very ill.

As for the endotoxin debate, I didn't want to get sucked into a perpetual back and forth. A 3 month stay at a general hospital in any tropical country in central America or Central and west africa will let Ghoul know that his fears are a tad bit excessive, but I guess that part has been addressed

 

[HereToTeachAndLearn]

Correct.
In addition, we need to realize that Sterility and Endotoxins are two different things.

It's like when they tell people to toss frozen turkey that was left to thaw outside for too long. You may choose to roast the turkey to the point where it's bone-in turkey jerkey, but if the heat doesn't denature the bacterial proteins, you're going to be very ill.

As for the endotoxin debate, I didn't want to get sucked into a perpetual back and forth. A 3 month stay at a general hospital in any tropical country in central America or Central and west africa will let Ghoul know that his fears are a tad bit excessive, but I guess that part has been addressed

My final comments:

While I can agree that readalot’s (aka Ghoul’s) methods have been extreme at times, he has made a conscious effort the advance our knowledge about harm reduction. He has presented, as well or better than anyone else I have seen here, information based upon scientific studies, manufacturer’s instructions as well other technical documentation to support his suggestions.

I have yet to see, and please forgive me if I have missed relevant posts, anyone provide the same to support their positions.

All I have seen, and I will once again ask for forgiveness if I have missed something, has been based upon personal experiences. While I believe personal experiences can be useful in building a body of anecdotal evidence, it does not equate to documented facts.

Not one person has presented any evidence indicating that terminal sterilization is not a reasonable additional measure of harm reduction.

Peace!

 

[egruberman]

Not one person has presented any evidence indicating that terminal sterilization is not a reasonable additional measure of harm reduction.

The question has been put to @Ghoul and I'll put it to you. It's the same as the freezer vs. fridge peptide debate. Theoretically, storing peptides in a freezer will yield a lower rate of degradation, but lacking tightly controlled conditions it is likely to cause more harm than good if the peptides are exposed to multiple state changes.

The same is true for terminal sterilization. What's the specific effective terminal sterilization temperature? At what point does thermal degradation begin to occur? What process are you going to recommend to the audience at large that's easily replicable and has a small margin for error?

If we're going to blindly follow USP guidelines then our test C should never exceed 30C.

So we're left with the fact that there is *still* no evidence of benefit for which some are arguing that people adopt a potentially harmful process.

I was joking about paying for the crow, but I am not joking about paying for the testing if we can agree, through reasonable discourse, what the permissible EU level should be.

 

[Middus]

My final comments:

While I can agree that readalot’s (aka Ghoul’s) methods have been extreme at times, he has made a conscious effort the advance our knowledge about harm reduction. He has presented, as well or better than anyone else I have seen here, information based upon scientific studies, manufacturer’s instructions as well other technical documentation to support his suggestions.

I have yet to see, and please forgive me if I have missed relevant posts, anyone provide the same to support their positions.

All I have seen, and I will once again ask for forgiveness if I have missed something, has been based upon personal experiences. While I believe personal experiences can be useful in building a body of anecdotal evidence, it does not equate to documented facts.

Not one person has presented any evidence indicating that terminal sterilization is not a reasonable additional measure of harm reduction.

Peace!

While this may sound like a fair argument on the surface, It really isn't. You want people to prove that an action is not necessary?
Philosophically speaking, it is him that chooses to deviate from the 'norm' that needs to justify how said deviation is better. We have ample anecdotal evidence showing you can get by without terminal sterilization.
This was the same thing someone was doing when they asked for evidence to show that stacking Reta worked. How will you find published reports for underground activity? We will just need to run with anecdotes.

 

[DECLAN]

My final comments:

While I can agree that readalot’s (aka Ghoul’s) methods have been extreme at times, he has made a conscious effort the advance our knowledge about harm reduction. He has presented, as well or better than anyone else I have seen here, information based upon scientific studies, manufacturer’s instructions as well other technical documentation to support his suggestions.

I have yet to see, and please forgive me if I have missed relevant posts, anyone provide the same to support their positions.

All I have seen, and I will once again ask for forgiveness if I have missed something, has been based upon personal experiences. While I believe personal experiences can be useful in building a body of anecdotal evidence, it does not equate to documented facts.

Not one person has presented any evidence indicating that terminal sterilization is not a reasonable additional measure of harm reduction.

Peace!

People have presented their anecdotal evidence though, there are guys here, who have decades of experience and have brewed from tren pellets following the late Basskiller’s guide.

Most if not all have not had any issues regarding sterility following simple methods.

Research and studies are good in all but applied methods and experience I think is more valuable than just theoretical suggestions which has not been proven in practice.

Would I trust my experience and the others here who have been brewing their own for decades or some random who has zero knowledge or first hand experience? Common sense dictates the former.

Of course we could improve and we are by keeping up with better sterilization methods, testing and making sure we buy from reputable suppliers.

 

[DECLAN]

@PinnacleElements is a scammer, post his address and name here so everybody will know who is. He buy form you so you have that data.

You can’t do that, read the rules, doxxing people can get you banned here.

 

[damian90k]

You can’t do that, read the rules, doxxing people can get you banned here.

Ok, I don know that posting data about scammers is illegal here in other forums is pretty normal.

 

[DECLAN]

Ok, I don know that posting data about scammers is illegal here in other forums is pretty normal.

I know what you mean, there are even hall of shame list.

 

[ksm2]

People have presented their anecdotal evidence though, there are guys here, who have decades of experience and have brewed from tren pellets following the late Basskiller’s guide.

Most if not all have not had any issues regarding sterility following simple methods.

Research and studies are good in all but applied methods and experience I think is more valuable than just theoretical suggestions which has not been proven in practice.

Would I trust my experience and the others here who have been brewing their own for decades or some random who has zero knowledge or first hand experience? Common sense dictates the former.

Of course we could improve and we are by keeping up with better sterilization methods, testing and making sure we buy from reputable suppliers.

I agree but i think it's still good to discuss such things and not discard the concerns because of the delivery or some personal grudges.

It is very unlikely i will ever bake my vials in the oven, but he still made me question the process more and be less relaxed about it, which isn't that bad.

Or the other example with butyl stoppers. No one want's to hear that what they were doing for years might could have some bad impact on their health. But it's still a good idea to consider there might be some truth to it and just try those vial spikes.

I still think modafinil is fucking shit though lol

 

[DECLAN]

I agree but i think it's still good to discuss such things and not discard the concerns because of the delivery or some personal grudges.

It is very unlikely i will ever bake my vials in the oven, but he still made me question the process more and be less relaxed about it, which isn't that bad.

Or the other example with butyl stoppers. No one want's to hear that what they were doing for years might could have some bad impact on their health. But it's still a good idea to consider there might be some truth to it and just try those vial spikes.

I still think modafinil is fucking shit though lol

Meh, I’m tired of this topic. Everyone is welcome to spend money for endotoxin testing, we will call the first one to do it a hero.

 

[bighunanballs]

People have presented their anecdotal evidence though, there are guys here, who have decades of experience and have brewed from tren pellets following the late Basskiller’s guide.

Most if not all have not had any issues regarding sterility following simple methods.

Research and studies are good in all but applied methods and experience I think is more valuable than just theoretical suggestions which has not been proven in practice.

Would I trust my experience and the others here who have been brewing their own for decades or some random who has zero knowledge or first hand experience? Common sense dictates the former.

Of course we could improve and we are by keeping up with better sterilization methods, testing and making sure we buy from reputable suppliers.

I guess the point I was trying to make was that if you try pasteurizing your oils post brewing you may actually do more harm than good.

I do enjoy having conversations about said topics, would like to see someone make a new thread about this stuff though and not clog up the QSC source thread lol

 

[Sampei]

@Qingdao Sigma Chemicals can you source test ISO raws?

 

[deadbeef]

Theoretically, storing peptides in a freezer will yield a lower rate of degradation, but lacking tightly controlled conditions it is likely to cause more harm than good if the peptides are exposed to multiple state changes.

Lol, you fell for ghoul's bro science BS! Just because he says a lot of words with conviction doesn't mean you should believe him.