I appreciate the thorough response! Bought some sterile vials and syringe filters. Is it a good idea to filter most of the peptides into new vials or is it just a big thing with Tesamorelin? Thanks!
MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
Qingdao Sigma Chemical Co., Ltd (International, US, EU, Canada and Australia domestic
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2old2getswol
New Member
I’ve not filtered Reta, Tirz, Sema, Cagri, HCG or HGH from QSC and have not experienced any issues so take that for what you will.
Ghoul
Well-known Member
Of course observational anecdotes have value, so I'm not suggesting what you're saying is useless, however you have no idea how much immunogenicity your peptides are inducing. It's not as if you could typically feel the effects of aggregation and the immune response unless it was really bad.
Ghoul
Well-known Member
I'm filtering all my peptides now, based on what I've learned. This is an increasing concern with commercial pharma producers as peptides become more widespread therapeutics. Most of the aggregation appears to happen in the final product container once it's in the hands of the user.
I ended up going down this rabbit hole for a few reasons, and a "cloudy" batch of PIP inducing Tesa was one.
The TLDR version is that all protein based therapeutics are susceptible to this aggregation process. Visible particles are the final stage. It's a concern because, at the least, aggregates don't work the way the peptide is intended. It's an altered version of the original product. Depending on various factors, those altered products can cause negative reactions as the immune system responds, maybe something you can feel, maybe not. Finally, aggregates can "train" the immune system to attack the original, unmodified peptide creating "tolerance" and reducing the effect you're seeking. This is referred to as "immunogenicity".
It impossible for end users to filter out all aggregates, especially the smaller ones like dimer. But the common .2um filters will eliminate the largest aggregates, without filtering out even the longest peptides. .1um may be even better. Only "Size Exclusion Chromatography" can eliminate all aggregates leaving behind pure peptide.
Here's a rough diagram showing the concept of proteins subject to various stresses like temp cycling (freeze thaw) contamination(especially silicone from stoppers and syringes), and agitation causing shear stress, all leading to aggregates forming, which then trigger an immune response.
This shows the approximately
aggregate size, with 100um being "visible", aka "cloudy solution", and the smallest aggregates 1um. Often, the larger the aggregate the worse the reaction and greater possibility of immunogenicity developing.
One final thing, developing immunity to a peptide does not typically seem to be anywhere near as long as immunity from something like a vaccine, but still best to be avoided or you could be pointlessly injecting a peptide with diminished or no effects at all.
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Ghoul
Well-known Member
That's an excellent question. From what I've found a typical 25mm syringe filter has a .05ml hold up volume.
13mm has a .01ml hold up volume.
Also important to ensure the filter uses a "low protein adhesion" membrane.
Finally, doing an "air purge" into the vial will push most retained liquid out of the filter.
Since smaller aggregates act a "seeds", attracting more peptide to build themselves, you're also likely preserving more unaggregated peptide than losing in the tiny amount of solution retention.
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Ghoul
Well-known Member
Here's one of the more detailed reports on protein aggregation. I can't possibly absorb all of it and go down every tangent. For instance they discuss the role of Benzyl Alcohol in multi-vial doses causing aggregation.
One interesting aspect of this has been a focus on why there's such a wide difference in efficacy and side effects between Pharma brands of HGH. Differences in packaging and handling, therefore amounts of aggregation may be the explanation as to why the same peptide has such different results. For instance, single use HGH doses use sterile water for reconstitution. Multi dose products use BAC, containing the (potentially) aggregate encouraging Benzyl Alcohol. Just food for thought...
pubs.rsc.org
One interesting aspect of this has been a focus on why there's such a wide difference in efficacy and side effects between Pharma brands of HGH. Differences in packaging and handling, therefore amounts of aggregation may be the explanation as to why the same peptide has such different results. For instance, single use HGH doses use sterile water for reconstitution. Multi dose products use BAC, containing the (potentially) aggregate encouraging Benzyl Alcohol. Just food for thought...
Aggregation of protein therapeutics enhances their immunogenicity: causes and mitigation strategies
Protein aggregation in biotherapeutics has been identified to increase immunogenicity, leading to immune-mediated adverse effects, such as severe allergic responses including anaphylaxis. The induction of anti-drug antibodies (ADAs) moreover enhances drug clearance rates, and can directly block...
pubs.rsc.org
So you are reconstituting, filtering entire solution into a new vial and then it's g2g? What stops further aggregation from happening post filtering? Especially if it's BA related?
Seems to me the only way to be sure would be to filter each and every shot, which would be prohibitively expensive for most.
Underworld
Member
not sure if srs
Ghoul
Well-known Member
I've had to make peace with the old adage; "Don't allow perfect to become enemy of the good".
Would filtration immediately prior to use be ideal? No. Filtering right after reconstitution into a sterile, pyrogen free vial to eliminate as many aggregate "seeds" as possible to slow the development of new ones, THEN syringe filter again immediately prior to use would be "Ideal", This concept, called "Bedside filtration" is already in practice in some hospitals, and has demonstrated unquestionable better patient outcomes.
This is even further out of reach for what most would be willing or able to do.
Then again, if we're talking someone using a GLP weekly this could be done for under $3/month, given that appropriate filters can be had for under 50¢.
Picking one, the filter immediately prior to use "Bedside" model is likely the better option, but more expensive and time consuming.
Filtering once after reconstitution into a new vial is still a major improvement over not filtering at all, and if that's as far as someone wants to go they'll still reap benefits.
Do what you can, or want to do, or nothing at all. The point is to define "Best Practice" , using the latest knowledge, and let individuals decide what they want to do. Some folks only eat organic chicken. I don't. Would it be better for me? Probably, certainly unlikely to be worse.
To each his own.
Docsunshine23
Member
I will say man you are super fucking intelligent and I like that you do your own research.
The bedside filtering isn’t practical, I’ve been involved in many hospital systems across the country and the only units that have done it are the oncology floors. A few ICUs tried to but that never worked out given the immediate need.
Is this best practice? Fuck yeah. But are juice heads and peptide monkeys gonna do it? I’d say 0.4% might. I think if we could filter out the dimer in HGH without affecting the rest there would be a bigger desire at least here.
But I’ve enjoyed both of your most recent post.
Ok now I’ll take your dick out of my mouth, happy Saturday all.
Ghoul
Well-known Member
60% of ICUs and neonate departments in the US have this policy now, at least for IV drips, because it cuts the average patient stay down by 1 day. Less inflammation, fewer incidents of organ failure, fewer complications generally.
Of course that's for a number of reasons beyond protein aggregation. Sediment is thing with many meds, .22 filtration at the last minute also corrects for any earlier errors causing a loss of sterility in the parenteral medication, etc.
But hey, some folks reuse syringes, don't wipe vial tops, etc. I'm not judging. I'm sure there's a wide variety of practices folks have adopted to suit their risk tolerance.
It's useful to know what fact-based practices one can incorporate into their routine if they choose to, and reducing protein aggregates is just another tool in the box if someone wants what it offers.
BuildABro
Well-known Member
I suspect most people that don’t have access to a highly controlled environment along with the knowledge and strict adherence to safety protocols would try some shit like this and just end up doing more harm than good.
So what you are left with in the vast majority of cases is just precautionary theatre.
narta
Member
I still think than ParalysisByAnalysis is more appropriate than Ghoul
BuildABro
Well-known Member
I think maybe he should take up, oh I dunno, maybe lifting weights to get some hobby diversity? I have heard this activity is popular around these parts
Ghoul
Well-known Member
A couple of decades ago many homebrewers denounced the concept of filter sterilization as "theater", because everyone knew boiling is what killed bacteria. duh.. That, along with the "common sense" knowledge that you don't use freshly made gear immediately to give the Benzyl Alcohol time to sterilize the vial contents.
This isn't rocket science for most. It's no more difficult than using a larger gauge to draw and switching to a smaller gauge to pin, a common practice many use daily.
Ghoul
Well-known Member
What happens when the 2 special ed kids accidentally wander into the AP class.
Notice folks, it's not enough for them to ignore it, they want to make sure you can't read it either.
narta
Member
When your mom said you were special it didn't mean bright son. So don't self project your google-fu as knowledge.
Fun fact about being special: it doesn't mean you are useful. You are the annoying little rug that no one bothers to throw away because it can be used once in a while
Ghoul
Well-known Member
By "annoying" you mean I remind you of how fundamentally stupid you are.
Otherwise you'd just hit the ignore button and remove my posts from your sight, instead of pretending you're speaking on behalf of the majority, demanding I stop posting.
Just do it man. Hit ignore, pussy.
BuildABro
Well-known Member
I do not see anyone suggesting anything in particular, only making observations. Observations which you have clearly taken offense to as evidenced by your last couple paragraphs of ad hom that would be right at home on the playground at recess
Not exactly a defining characteristic of utter brilliance that you are attempting to convince everyone you possess.
People talk lots of shit here, as I am sure you are well aware of. If this is not to your liking then I am sure there is some FB peptide group out there for you to impress with your long diatribes
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