QSC Tren Ace Long Term Storage

[Ghoul]

butyl rubber has good Good Suitability for both tho

Good but not great. They will still leech chemicals into the oil, and break down like described in the original post.

Stoppers need a barrier coating to prevent chemicals from transferring into the liquid, especially when storing for years.

And then the next problem is the glass breaking down and ending up with this:





View: https://youtu.be/Ag0Yya6jK3E

 

[Sampei]

Good but not great. They will still leech chemicals into the oil, and break down like described in the original post.

Stoppers need a barrier coating to prevent chemicals from transferring into the liquid, especially when storing for years.

And then the next problem is the glass breaking down and ending up with this:

View attachment 296786



View: https://youtu.be/Ag0Yya6jK3E

most of these special stoppers and special vials are not accessible to private individuals, I believe the best solution is just keep raws stored and don't brew more then 1 and 1/2 year supply AT MAXIMUM.

 

[Astartes]

Not trying to argue, but visual indications of contamination are only present when things get *really* bad. It's become clear in recent years that all kinds of contaminants are ending up in injectables from the stopper, and believe it or not, the glass, which is not inert.

The 2024 study linked to below demonstrates science is just starting to get a handle on this problem, trying to establish a testing protocol and establishing limits of contaminants. There have been incidents of contaminants from stoppers being identified as the cause of serious, even deadly reactions.

What we do have are materials that avoid this problem entirely. Coated stoppers (mentioned in the report) and glass lined with a quartz like coating to prevent boron and other chemicals from migrating into the liquid, as well as the steady delamination that fills the vial with glass shards.

If this sounds like far out tinfoil hat stuff, I can assure you it's part of mainstream pharmaceutical science now.

About 60% of US hospitals enacted policies requiring filtration of injectables in intensive care units. Those that have, reduced stays by an average of 1 day, because of a reduction in inflammation, organ failure, and other previously unexplained complications.

I know this isn't of interest to everyone, but some are interested in minimizing as much potential harm as possible, especially knowing small reductions over a long period can make a big difference. Most homebrewers say they do it because they don't trust UGLs to make safe products, so this is a step in that direction.

View attachment 296766View attachment 296767

EXPLORING EXTRACTABLE AND LEACHABLE TESTING STRATEGIES FOR PARENTERALS - ONdrugDelivery

Antonio Scatena, Scott Toth and Kyle Chenevert discuss the regulatory landscape regarding extractables and leachables for parenteral drugs and provide guidance on implementing a successful testing approach. Techniques and results interpretation are discussed, emphasising practical advice for...

ondrugdelivery.com

Don’t doubt you are right.

Problem is we exist in an imperfect state. (In many ways.. heh) None of us have access to labs and true sterile environments. We do best we can and mitigate risk as much as possible.

I have (knock on wood) never caught even a wiff of infection in all my years of home brewing. No chemical poisoning… (Except Guaiacol… admittedly not my highest IQ period) Though I keep ample amounts of 6 different types of antibiotic on hand. (Kids end up using them for strep etc…lmao)

In the end, if they come out with reasonably priced and better products I’ll grab, until then I’m just not sweating the “what if’s” when the chances are minimal and I have taken precaution.

- Store in a cool dark place. Top up.
- Don’t use Guaiacol or EO for minimal
corrosion. (And other reasons with Guaiacol)
- Keep antibiotics in hand.
- Use sufficient BA. (Yes… more than .9 for
margin of error. I actually do 3-3.5)
- Visually inspect each vial.
- Use 10ml Vials (To avoid beating the hell out of
stoppers as much as possible.)

FIDO (Forget It and Drive On)

 

[Ghoul]

Don’t doubt you are right.

Problem is we exist in an imperfect state. (In many ways.. heh) None of us have access to labs and true sterile environments. We do best we can and mitigate risk as much as possible.

I have (knock on wood) never caught even a wiff of infection in all my years of home brewing. Though I keep ample amounts of 6 different types of antibiotic on hand. (Kids end up using them lmao)

In the end, if they come out with reasonably priced and better products I’ll grab, until then I’m just not sweating the “what if’s” when the chances are minimal and I have taken precaution.

Store in a cool dark place. Top up. Don’t use Guaiacol or EO for minimal corrosion. (And other reasons with Guaiacol) Keep antibiotics in hand. Visually inspect each vial. Use 10ml to avoid beating the hell out of stoppers as much as possible.

FIDO (Forget It and Drive On)

So "mitigate risk" but your advice is to not use a $1.50 stopper to mitigate the risk of butyl rubber chemicals contaminating a compound being injected. along with minimizing coring particles?

Is that because a $1.50 breakdown resistant stopper is a step out of reach, or because you can't "feel" the symptoms of either, the same way you're sure you're not injecting bacteria and it's not just getting taken care of by your immune system before becoming symptomatic?

Just trying to follow the logic here. I can't feel anything when consuming food drenched in pesticides, doesn't mean I'm not going to wash vegetables before eating.

Is it the underlying science you doubt?

I mean, do whatever you want, but you seem to be casting doubt on whether minimizing this risk is possible or even exists.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Use sufficient BA. (Yes… more than .9 for
margin of error. I actually do 3-3.5)

I like 1.2-1.5%

 

[Astartes]

So "mitigate risk" but your advice is to not use a $1.50 stopper to mitigate the risk of butyl rubber chemicals contaminating a compound being injecting. along with minimizing coring particles?

Is that because a $1.50 breakdown resistant stopper is a step out of reach, or because you can't "feel" the symptoms of either, the same way you're sure you're not injecting bacteria and it's not just getting taken care of by your immune system before becoming symptomatic?

Just trying to follow the logic here. I can't feel anything when consuming food drenched in pesticides, doesn't mean I'm not going to wash vegetables before eating.

Is it the underlying science you doubt?

I mean, do whatever you want, but you seem to be casting doubt on whether minimizing this risk is possible or even exists.

Lmao… Not saying that at all.

I don’t know anything about the stopper you are calling out, so I’d have to research. (Certainly will) Of course I’d use something substantially better. If reasonably better and available.

Just cannot comment because I’m uneducated.

Now simmer down sir. Drink some decaf and let the rest of us lunk heads come up to speed.

 

[Sampei]

So "mitigate risk" but your advice is to not use a $1.50 stopper to mitigate the risk of butyl rubber chemicals contaminating a compound being injected. along with minimizing coring particles?

Is that because a $1.50 breakdown resistant stopper is a step out of reach, or because you can't "feel" the symptoms of either, the same way you're sure you're not injecting bacteria and it's not just getting taken care of by your immune system before becoming symptomatic?

Just trying to follow the logic here. I can't feel anything when consuming food drenched in pesticides, doesn't mean I'm not going to wash vegetables before eating.

Is it the underlying science you doubt?

I mean, do whatever you want, but you seem to be casting doubt on whether minimizing this risk is possible or even exists.

I like how you ignored my comment stating that most of the stuff you talk about and preach are unaccessible for private entity especially anyone that doesn't live in the US.

Talking about living in rainbow unicorn universe much?

 

[Ghoul]

I like how you ignored my comment stating that most of the stuff you talk about and preach are unaccessible for private entity especially anyone that doesn't live in the US.

Talking about living in rainbow unicorn universe much?

Give me a fucking break. Everything's impossible for those who don't try.

5 minutes work:

It's literally available from the manufacturer. with worldwide shipping.

20mm NovaPure® Chlorobutyl Serum Rubber Stoppers – West

West Pharmaceutical Services manufactures 20mm NovaPure® Chlorobutyl stoppers made from 4432/50 laminated with FluroTec® barrier film to help reduce & leachables.

www.westpharma.com

$750 for 500 too much?

Available from dozens of science supply surplus sites, like this one. worldwide shipping.

$142 for the same product.

West Pharmaceutical 19700305 20mm Serum NovaPure RP S10-F451 4432/50G,

New West Pharmaceutical 19700305 20mm Serum NovaPure RP S10-F451 4432/50G, 500 PCS. Model 19700305. Guaranteed with 30-day warranty.

www.ntc-tech.com

Don't expect me to do all the thinking, research, homework, and then hand these things to you on a silver platter.

If you want help acquiring this stuff, ASK nicely. instead of insulting me, like an arrogant ass, who's put absolutely no effort into an endeavor meant to benefit you.

Someone should set up a way to split up an order for those who are interested. You should be able to get a few guys to split up a bag of 500 into lots of 50 for $20, plus shipping to wherever. If "karens" can arrange to split up QSC kits of Tirz amongst themselves, surely you guys can handle this.

 

[Cheburek1]

When you left and he started posted some people were thinking it was you lol

It's like Ghoul is a more popular and less controversial version of Readalot. Both are cool in their own right.

 

[Sampei]

Give me a fucking break. Everything's impossible for those who don't try.

5 minutes work:

It's literally available from the manufacturer. with worldwide shipping.

20mm NovaPure® Chlorobutyl Serum Rubber Stoppers – West

West Pharmaceutical Services manufactures 20mm NovaPure® Chlorobutyl stoppers made from 4432/50 laminated with FluroTec® barrier film to help reduce & leachables.

www.westpharma.com

$750 for 500 too much?

Available from dozens of science supply surplus sites, like this one. worldwide shipping.

$142 for the same product.

West Pharmaceutical 19700305 20mm Serum NovaPure RP S10-F451 4432/50G,

New West Pharmaceutical 19700305 20mm Serum NovaPure RP S10-F451 4432/50G, 500 PCS. Model 19700305. Guaranteed with 30-day warranty.

www.ntc-tech.com

Don't expect me to do all the thinking, research, homework, and then hand these things to you on a silver platter.

If you want help acquiring this stuff, ASK nicely. instead of insulting me, like an arrogant ass, who's put absolutely no effort into an endeavor meant to benefit you.

Someone should set up a way to split up an order for those who are interested. You should be able to get a few guys to split up a bag of 500 into lots of 50 for $20, plus shipping to wherever. If "karens" can arrange to split up QSC kits of Tirz amongst themselves, surely you guys can handle this.

I'll do it. I'm happy to organise a GB of all these stuff, could you make a list? Need those special vials that don't delaminate as well.

Btw these stoppers are not the fluorowhatever called you guys were talking before I was searching for those.

 

[bigMoJo]

Great thread, valuable info. @Ghoul : 1. Congratulation on your elevated status to "Well-known Member." You're an estimable part of this community; 2. Your thread on the de minimis rule has me busy looking into raws, home-brew and long-term storage. I can't say it's easy, and it's a ton of reading with nuances--vials & stoppers--a rookie like me has no idea.

It seems nothing beats Fluro Tec stoppers, though it can get expensive. However, going down this rubber-stopper rabbit hole, I found: 1. A short, but decent, write-up further elaborating differences on Bromobutyl Rubber vs. Chlorobutyl; 2. Another more detailed write-up that, maybe, may make more sense to someone else who can help figure an economical solution based on application need here.

 

[Sampei]

Good but not great. They will still leech chemicals into the oil, and break down like described in the original post.

Stoppers need a barrier coating to prevent chemicals from transferring into the liquid, especially when storing for years.

And then the next problem is the glass breaking down and ending up with this:

View attachment 296786



View: https://youtu.be/Ag0Yya6jK3E

Ghoul can you source this vials for us please?

 

[bigMoJo]

@Sampei
Upon @jdubzzz44 recommendation, I went ahead and ordered these vials on 09/28 and received them today.

What's on the top of the box is what's also on each side. No other information to suggest Fluro-tec etc., or anything remarkable. I havn't opened/punctured them yet to add any other info.

They also come in clear as you can see.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

@Sampei
Upon @jdubzzz44 recommendation, I went ahead and ordered these vials on 09/28 and received them today.

What's on the top of the box is what's also on each side. No other information to suggest Fluro-tec etc., or anything remarkable. I havn't opened/punctured them yet to add any other info.

They also come in clear as you can see.

View attachment 297409
View attachment 297410View attachment 297411View attachment 297412

After you stick your needle in there, let us know how smooth it feels.

Or if it feels like a cheap used up hooker

 

[Sampei]

@Sampei
Upon @jdubzzz44 recommendation, I went ahead and ordered these vials on 09/28 and received them today.

What's on the top of the box is what's also on each side. No other information to suggest Fluro-tec etc., or anything remarkable. I havn't opened/punctured them yet to add any other info.

They also come in clear as you can see.

View attachment 297409
View attachment 297410View attachment 297411View attachment 297412

Stick a needle in it and let us know how does it feel.

I'm thinking to buy 250 of it.
That would set me for life. As I can always resterilize the lot for a while.

 

[Ghoul]

Love low profile stoppers. I hate having to go through half an inch of rubber first, or if you're not perfectly centered, ending up going into one of the "wings" on the side.

 

[bigMoJo]

I apologize for the time on this, I didn't have the privacy necessary for the following video. 25g pin was used to conduct @Spaceman Spiff "hooker" test. Result: Tight/Firm Stopper compared to a US Pharmacy topper (see video). Additionally, extra photos show the Fluro-Tec stopper has a unique concave stopper.

View attachment 1000006962.mov

 

[MackDaddy]

Not trying to argue, but visual indications of contamination are only present when things get *really* bad. It's become clear in recent years that all kinds of contaminants are ending up in injectables from the stopper, and believe it or not, the glass, which is not inert.

The 2024 study linked to below demonstrates science is just starting to get a handle on this problem, trying to establish a testing protocol and establishing limits of contaminants. There have been incidents of contaminants from stoppers being identified as the cause of serious, even deadly reactions.

What we do have are materials that avoid this problem entirely. Coated stoppers (mentioned in the report) and glass lined with a quartz like coating to prevent boron and other chemicals from migrating into the liquid, as well as the steady delamination that fills the vial with glass shards.

If this sounds like far out tinfoil hat stuff, I can assure you it's part of mainstream pharmaceutical science now.

About 60% of US hospitals enacted policies requiring filtration of injectables in intensive care units. Those that have, reduced stays by an average of 1 day, because of a reduction in inflammation, organ failure, and other previously unexplained complications.

I know this isn't of interest to everyone, but some are interested in minimizing as much potential harm as possible, especially knowing small reductions over a long period can make a big difference. Most homebrewers say they do it because they don't trust UGLs to make safe products, so this is a step in that direction.

View attachment 296766View attachment 296767

EXPLORING EXTRACTABLE AND LEACHABLE TESTING STRATEGIES FOR PARENTERALS - ONdrugDelivery

Antonio Scatena, Scott Toth and Kyle Chenevert discuss the regulatory landscape regarding extractables and leachables for parenteral drugs and provide guidance on implementing a successful testing approach. Techniques and results interpretation are discussed, emphasising practical advice for...

ondrugdelivery.com

Should we just not use QSC then? Or should we immediately get the oil out of the QSC vials and put them into new ones?

 

[bigboy420]

My first year on test i had qsc and i was pinning trt.

Till the end of the vial it was literally so many rubber pieces at the bottom. So I just threw the last half a ml to the garbage.

Qsc finished oils are a joke. Only cheap people buy this.
Even filter floaters in vials are ignored by the community becouse of the price.

Crazy bro, not much different than a horse junky getting the cheapest option, becouse atleast he can get it

Im even scared of all consumables that come out of china.
CPP refuses to do anything about toxic chemicals in official grocery stores all over china. Its crazy

 

[narta]

Love low profile stoppers. I hate having to go through half an inch of rubber first, or if you're not perfectly centered, ending up going into one of the "wings" on the side.

Flapper stoppers are for lyophilized preperations not oils. They are designed to hold the seal due to vacuum