Raws vs Finished product testing

[Benf15harp]

please excuse my ignorance

Question for you brewers:
If you were to get untested raw materials for Test C and processed it into a finish product of 250mg/ml which you send to a testing facility and got the result of 255mg/ml Would that indicate that the raw materials were of high quality/purity or is there more to it?

Another way:
If a vendor sells only finished products but do not test their raws or will not share their raw test results but all of their products were tested and all of them were overfilled. Would that indicate that high quality/purity raw materials were being used?

Thanks for your time.

 

[Trenbolonetax]

please excuse my ignorance

Question for you brewers:
If you were to get untested raw materials for Test C and processed it into a finish product of 250mg/ml which you send to a testing facility and got the result of 255mg/ml Would that indicate that the raw materials were of high quality/purity or is there more to it?

If you did math correctly when brewing with a target dose of 250mg/ml you wouldn’t get an overdosed finished product. Only way that happens is by intentionally overdosing or doing math wrong.

Some will say there is more to high quality raws then simple LCMS purity, and that that doesn’t tell the full story.

Another way:
If a vendor sells only finished products but do not test their raws or will not share their raw test results but all of their products were tested and all of them were overfilled. Would that indicate that high quality/purity raw materials were being used?

I assume overfilled = overdosed? It means they’re intentionally overdosing their product or doing math wrong.

It’s impossible to 100% accurately dose a finished product without knowing purity of raws. Most raws, are relatively high purity, so it’s pretty easy to get within 5 to 10% of target dose without testing raws.

But once again, high quality is pretty subjective around here these days. By what measurement? By what testing methodology? What are the limits to that testing methodology?

Thanks for your time.

Anytime, babe.

 

[narta]

If the execution of the recipe is precise and your finished product is within ±5% your raws are in the 98%+ bracket aka high purity

 

[Benf15harp]

If you did math correctly when brewing with a target dose of 250mg/ml you wouldn’t get an overdosed finished product. Only way that happens is by intentionally overdosing or doing math wrong.

Some will say there is more to high quality raws then simple LCMS purity, and that that doesn’t tell the full story.


I assume overfilled = overdosed? It means they’re intentionally overdosing their product or doing math wrong.

It’s impossible to 100% accurately dose a finished product without knowing purity of raws. Most raws, are relatively high purity, so it’s pretty easy to get within 5 to 10% of target dose without testing raws.

But once again, high quality is pretty subjective around here these days. By what measurement? By what testing methodology? What are the limits to that testing methodology?

Anytime, babe.

You know I never actually went to high school right? lol when you’re good you’re good
In layman’s terms:
Are you saying finished oils with the basic testing from say Janoshik do not necessarily indicate quality raw materials?
What if I had raws tested at 50% purity
Couldn’t I just double the amount required to make the targeted dosage?
Meaning that 50% of those raws are garbage but the finished oil would test properly??

 

[narta]

Couldn’t I just double the amount required to make the targeted dosage?
Meaning that 50% of those raws are garbage but the finished oil would test properly??

What's the other 50%? Anything below 90% is unacceptable

 

[readalot]

What if I had raws tested at 50% purity
Couldn’t I just double the amount required to make the targeted dosage?
Meaning that 50% of those raws are garbage but the finished oil would test properly??

Absolutely correct. In fact many brewers appear to use this method rather than testing their raws by HPLC prior to using them for finished product. The customer doesn't know what's in their finished oil unless GCMS is used to determine other organics. And don't get me started on testosterone impurities that may not be resolved using HPLC (i.e., current open question on -ene impurities in Test Ester raws).

Great thread.

 

[Benf15harp]

Absolutely correct. In fact many brewers appear to use this method rather than testing their raws by HPLC prior to using them for finished product. The customer doesn't know what's in their finished oil unless GCMS is used to determine other organics. And don't get me started on testosterone impurities that may not be resolved using HPLC (i.e., current open question on -ene impurities in Test Ester raws).

Great thread.

Thanks.
So basically a lot of these vendors like GA that confirmed he doesn’t test raws probably just make small batches until the dosage is correct and then mass produce?

 

[readalot]

simple LCMS purity,

HPLC-DAD is what Jano uses today. MS not involved in the 120 usd test which had become MESO standard to date.

 

[readalot]

Thanks.
So basically a lot of these vendors like GA that confirmed he doesn’t test raws probably just make small batches until the dosage is correct and then mass produce?

The process by necessity must be iterative unless HPLC is used to assess purity of raw material before it gets "brewed".

And of course all Chinese raws are at least 99% pure if you go by their internal COA documents.

 

[narta]

Absolutely correct. In fact many brewers appear to use this method rather than testing their raws by HPLC prior to using them for finished product

Retarded thinking at its best: I don't know the purity of my starting ingredient so I will overdose it by an arbitrary amount and nail the concentration by pure magic.

Excellent thinking.

Crack on dude!

 

[readalot]

What's the other 50%?

You really are interested?

Anything below 90% is unacceptable

Why? If finished product concentration by HPLC is within 5% of label, what's the problem, right? Why 90%?

 

[readalot]

Retarded thinking at its best: I don't know the purity of my starting ingredient so I will overdose it by an arbitrary amount and nail the concentration by pure magic.

Excellent thinking.

Crack on dude!

I'm not endorsing it. I'm stating what's done. Of course it's retarded. But you already know all this. Rather than having constructive dialogue you want to be purposely obstinate.

Or you could just agree and find common ground. Of course all raws should be tested at the very least for purity before being used in finished products.

 

[narta]

The process by necessity must be iterative unless HPLC is used to assess purity of raw material before it gets "brewed".

So the source pays for multiple tests untill he nails dosaging that pay once to find out the purity?

Makes sense financially... Let's pay 5x$120 than $120 so we can use sub par raws.

Yeap.

 

[readalot]

So the source pays for multiple tests untill he nails dosaging that pay once to find out the purity?

Makes sense financially... Let's pay 5x$120 than $120 so we can use sub par raws.

Yeap.

you could spend 5 min on @MuscleCandy 's thread and see what's up. Or just needlessly argue with me. Ask him why he won't test raws. I didn't like his answer and made no sense to me.

After a vendor does this a while they seem to just overdose their raw amount and hope it's within 20%. Pretty simple to see which vendors test their raws consistently. And no it doesn't appear to be commonplace.

 

[readalot]

Post in thread 'MuscleCandy - US Domestic'

Nov 14, 2024

Anyone with a brain would position themselves in a way that offers a better alternative to such practices.

Not a vendor in sight with any brains.

There’s a reason sources aren’t doing it. It’s impractical. I’m sorry, but that’s just the truth.
I asked for somebody to point me to a source that consistently tests their raws before use and the best that you could come up with was a post from 6 months ago of 12 compounds…

Perhaps I’ll post raw tests in a few weeks so you guys can marvel at them for a year before ever questioning it again.

This will be my last...

• MuscleCandy

• 
• 

 

[Benf15harp]

Post in thread 'MuscleCandy - US Domestic'

Nov 14, 2024

Anyone with a brain would position themselves in a way that offers a better alternative to such practices.

Not a vendor in sight with any brains.

There’s a reason sources aren’t doing it. It’s impractical. I’m sorry, but that’s just the truth.
I asked for somebody to point me to a source that consistently tests their raws before use and the best that you could come up with was a post from 6 months ago of 12 compounds…

Perhaps I’ll post raw tests in a few weeks so you guys can marvel at them for a year before ever questioning it again.

This will be my last...

• MuscleCandy

• 
• 

Tell muscleCandy that Redmond Pharm tests all raws before brewing. Just won’t share results unless paid customer.

 

[Trenbolonetax]

HPLC-DAD is what Jano uses today. MS not involved in the 120 usd test which had become MESO standard to date.

Dang that’s what I intended. I knew I was using the wrong 4 letter word!

 

[readalot]

Dang that’s what I intended. I knew I was using the wrong 4 letter word!

Excellent job promoting MS technology. GCMS comes in handy when the knucklendraggers finally get around to wondering what that other "50%" is...even when AAS concentration in finished product tests correctly.

 

[iris]

Retarded thinking at its best: I don't know the purity of my starting ingredient so I will overdose it by an arbitrary amount and nail the concentration by pure magic.

Excellent thinking.

Crack on dude!

Hello.
Do you test the raw stuff you buy or, say, go with the vendor's test (if available).

Reading your responses here it means you agree with GA not testing theirs (because they get the oils made? Because they do not sell the raws, as the guy said? Because, in general, there is no need?).

 

[readalot]

So the source pays for multiple tests untill he nails dosaging that pay once to find out the purity?

Makes sense financially... Let's pay 5x$120 than $120 so we can use sub par raws.

Yeap.

Edit: but I do know and have read where a lot of sources brew a product and send it to Jano for testing before filtered. They do this so if jano’s report showed that the product was underdosed or over-dosed they could make adjustments to the brew and retest. Once they get a good report they then filter. This would throw the sterility testing out the window for those sources

You are a bad actor Narta.