Science on storage temperatures for raws, “ingredients”, and finished oils for 5+ year timelines?

[trytryagain]

This is an educational/harm-reduction related query, primarily…and yes I know the subject elicits eye rolls.

Short version: can anyone point me to studies/experiments/papers that show higher degradation of finished oils or Pharma Test when stored sub-freezing vs. when stored above freezing?

Long version:

I keep finding references here and at legit/semi-legit hormone providers saying (paraphrasing):
1. “storing finished oils/pharma test at sub freezing temperatures is not recommended as it can chemically alter the hormone.” Note that the word chemically is sometimes used, which would be a different issue than crashing.

However, I have also read in the forum that, again paraphrasing: 2. “storing raws/hormone APIs at sub freezing temperatures, properly dried of any water content and protected from ingression of water content, is one way to extend the stability of the raw over very long storage time periods.”

I’m trying to square this circle here. With science!

Lastly, before the Qs below the fold: I assume that finished oils/Pharma Test are going to crash on their way to sub freezing temperatures and be stored crashed, and that will need to be addressed before usage by gentle heating. Also I assume that one cycle of crashing and recovery normally has little effect on the chemical stability of a hormone (…unless that is wrong?).

——————

The issue is that I haven’t found a specific mechanism of action for “hormone in oil is damaged when stored sub freezing” that would also allow for “raw hormone is stable / more stable when stored sub freezing”. Or even a mechanism that would damage both at sub freezing temperatures assuming proper drying/sealing.

I am wondering:

Q1: Is this perhaps misapplied “damage occurs to raw/apis in WATER-based solutions that are frozen due to the damaging mechanical effects of ice crystals on the dissolved raws/apis during the freezing/thaw cycles.”?

Q2: Is this perhaps the general guideline of “FDA / Pharma validation of storing drug company hormone oils was done at these specific temperatures and that’s the only official science out there” (which is also the reason given for not refrigerating hospira BAC).

Q3: Basically: are there studies / experiments / papers that show this higher specific type of degradation when storing hormones in oil at sub freezing temperatures … vs. at room temperature or vs. refrigerator storage?

Q4: Which hormones, specifically?

If not, anything else that can be pointed to that shows this phenomenon?

Bracing for mockery,
TTA

PS - I haven’t yet looked into the ramifications of storing ingredients (base oil, solvents, bacteriostatics, etc.) at sub freezing temperatures, maybe that is a factor, that the media the raw is in becomes damaged, which increases patient risk?

 

[Ghoul]

This is an educational/harm-reduction related query, primarily…and yes I know the subject elicits eye rolls.

Short version: can anyone point me to studies/experiments/papers that show higher degradation of finished oils or Pharma Test when stored sub-freezing vs. when stored above freezing?

Long version:

I keep finding references here and at legit/semi-legit hormone providers saying (paraphrasing):
1. “storing finished oils/pharma test at sub freezing temperatures is not recommended as it can chemically alter the hormone.” Note that the word chemically is sometimes used, which would be a different issue than crashing.

However, I have also read in the forum that, again paraphrasing: 2. “storing raws/hormone APIs at sub freezing temperatures, properly dried of any water content and protected from ingression of water content, is one way to extend the stability of the raw over very long storage time periods.”

I’m trying to square this circle here. With science!

Lastly, before the Qs below the fold: I assume that finished oils/Pharma Test are going to crash on their way to sub freezing temperatures and be stored crashed, and that will need to be addressed before usage by gentle heating. Also I assume that one cycle of crashing and recovery normally has little effect on the chemical stability of a hormone (…unless that is wrong?).

——————

The issue is that I haven’t found a specific mechanism of action for “hormone in oil is damaged when stored sub freezing” that would also allow for “raw hormone is stable / more stable when stored sub freezing”. Or even a mechanism that would damage both at sub freezing temperatures assuming proper drying/sealing.

I am wondering:

Q1: Is this perhaps misapplied “damage occurs to raw/apis in WATER-based solutions that are frozen due to the damaging mechanical effects of ice crystals on the dissolved raws/apis during the freezing/thaw cycles.”?

Q2: Is this perhaps the general guideline of “FDA / Pharma validation of storing drug company hormone oils was done at these specific temperatures and that’s the only official science out there” (which is also the reason given for not refrigerating hospira BAC).

Q3: Basically: are there studies / experiments / papers that show this higher specific type of degradation when storing hormones in oil at sub freezing temperatures … vs. at room temperature or vs. refrigerator storage?

Q4: Which hormones, specifically?

If not, anything else that can be pointed to that shows this phenomenon?

Bracing for mockery,
TTA

PS - I haven’t yet looked into the ramifications of storing ingredients (base oil, solvents, bacteriostatics, etc.) at sub freezing temperatures, maybe that is a factor, that the media the raw is in becomes damaged, which increases patient risk?

TLDR small molecule chemicals are not damaged by freezing. It slows their degradation.

MCT oil isn't damaged by freezing.

BA and BB are not damaged by freezing.

Nothing mentioned above has fragile chemical bonds, and the colder the temp, the slower chemical degradation takes place.

Pharma routinely stores APIs at -100c for long term storage.

Even if moisture is present, which isn't ideal, the crystals won't damage any of the chemicals.

Studies for what you're seeking aren't readily available, but you can easily confirm each element I've mentioned.

Peptides are a different matter. While chemical degradation is slowed down like it is for small molecules, structure matters and proteins are fragile, so it's more complicated.

 

[trytryagain]

TLDR small molecule chemicals are not damaged by freezing. It slows their degradation.

That’s what my gut / chem education led me to believe. I just don’t know what I don’t know (“unknown unknowns”). I appreciate the input.

So my takeaway is the evidence generally leans towards: keep your raws/oil-based hormones dry and sufficiently well packaged/sealed, and if you want to use them in 5-10 years, storing in stable sub freezing temperatures will likely keep them more stable over the long run.

Thanks.

 

[IndividualMan]

in the dark, keep them in the dark please. Raws are just like vampires, but instead of sucking out blood, they inject you with gains. equally light sensitive tho. (not really)

 

[Sampei]

That’s what my gut / chem education led me to believe. I just don’t know what I don’t know (“unknown unknowns”). I appreciate the input.

So my takeaway is the evidence generally leans towards: keep your raws/oil-based hormones dry and sufficiently well packaged/sealed, and if you want to use them in 5-10 years, storing in stable sub freezing temperatures will likely keep them more stable over the long run.

Thanks.

Good luck if any moisture forms inside those vials or inside the bag of your raws

 

[trytryagain]

Good luck if any moisture forms inside those vials or inside the bag of your raws

Yeah, that’s the trick.

The vials are sealed and probably mostly moisture free…but colder temperatures can cause materials to contract, so that could lead to loss of sealing on vials, potentially allowing condensation in. Pulling a (light) vacuum and storing in vacuum-sealed bags might be a way to mitigate. With a vacuum strong enough to pull out nearly all of the gas outside of the vial, but not strong enough to be tugging at the vial contents.

That’s all assuming the oils came dry. Same storage approach with brew materials, maybe desiccants with them. Likely some have more headspace volume and aren’t sealed as well, so … maybe look into topping off with inert gases, if already opened? Though those are generally easier to replace…at least currently.

The raws might need some time under a vacuum to ensure they are dry before vac sealing, and probably stored with desiccants (with a sufficient barrier to mixing/cross contamination with the desiccant). I suspect irreversible desiccants are better for this, as there’s a higher energy barrier preventing the moisture from disassociating from the dessicant.

Aside: one of the downfalls of waterproof bags/boxes is that they are waterproof in both directions…so you need to be sure they are sealed entirely dry inside and kept dry inside the waterproof container. Ruined some mobile tools that way, due to not thinking that through a couple decades back.

TTA

 

[Ghoul]

Yeah, that’s the trick.

The vials are sealed and probably mostly moisture free…but colder temperatures can cause materials to contract, so that could lead to loss of sealing on vials, potentially allowing condensation in. Pulling a (light) vacuum and storing in vacuum-sealed bags might be a way to mitigate. With a vacuum strong enough to pull out nearly all of the gas outside of the vial, but not strong enough to be tugging at the vial contents.

That’s all assuming the oils came dry. Same storage approach with brew materials, maybe desiccants with them. Likely some have more headspace volume and aren’t sealed as well, so … maybe look into topping off with inert gases, if already opened? Though those are generally easier to replace…at least currently.

The raws might need some time under a vacuum to ensure they are dry before vac sealing, and probably stored with desiccants (with a sufficient barrier to mixing/cross contamination with the desiccant). I suspect irreversible desiccants are better for this, as there’s a higher energy barrier preventing the moisture from disassociating from the dessicant.

Aside: one of the downfalls of waterproof bags/boxes is that they are waterproof in both directions…so you need to be sure they are sealed entirely dry inside and kept dry inside the waterproof container. Ruined some mobile tools that way, due to not thinking that through a couple decades back.

TTA

It's not hard to seal out moisture. Freezer bags, mylar bags. Double bag it. Use a sealer if you have one. If it's not properly sealed you're going to have an issue with the raw being exposed to humidity and heat degradation at room temp too.

Let it come to room temp after removing it from the freezer so condensation forms outside the bag. Split into smaller portions so all your eggs aren't in one basket...etc. Common sense really. Lower temps slow all chemical processes so the colder the less chemical degradation there will be, Only moisture is the enemy.

 

[Sampei]

Yeah, that’s the trick.

The vials are sealed and probably mostly moisture free…but colder temperatures can cause materials to contract, so that could lead to loss of sealing on vials, potentially allowing condensation in. Pulling a (light) vacuum and storing in vacuum-sealed bags might be a way to mitigate. With a vacuum strong enough to pull out nearly all of the gas outside of the vial, but not strong enough to be tugging at the vial contents.

That’s all assuming the oils came dry. Same storage approach with brew materials, maybe desiccants with them. Likely some have more headspace volume and aren’t sealed as well, so … maybe look into topping off with inert gases, if already opened? Though those are generally easier to replace…at least currently.

The raws might need some time under a vacuum to ensure they are dry before vac sealing, and probably stored with desiccants (with a sufficient barrier to mixing/cross contamination with the desiccant). I suspect irreversible desiccants are better for this, as there’s a higher energy barrier preventing the moisture from disassociating from the dessicant.

Aside: one of the downfalls of waterproof bags/boxes is that they are waterproof in both directions…so you need to be sure they are sealed entirely dry inside and kept dry inside the waterproof container. Ruined some mobile tools that way, due to not thinking that through a couple decades back.

TTA

Imho you don't need to freeze anything, just use oxygen absorber sachet with the raw (not the desiccant paper one) vacuum seal in double bag, put in mylar bag and store it in a cool place, it will be fine for a very very long time. Freezing raws is extreme and there are a few things that can go very wrong

Ppl here have brewed raws stored at 20c degrees after many years in a sealed bag and they were more then fine.

When you complicate things many times you get to a point the drawbacks are higher then the possible benefits.

Oxygen and light are the first offender, temperature become a problem if it's very high temperature, stored in a cabinet how high it can go? ,

 

[Ghoul]

Why would moisture in raws at room temperature, a temperature that allows hydrolysis reactions to degrade chemicals, not harm the raw but freezing it in a sealed bag, a temperature that stops hydrolysis reactions, would?

Folks have it backwards. Small molecule chemicals are largely immune to freezing damaging anything. Peptides are not, with the 1-2% residual moisture forming crystals physically damaging the structure of the peptide. .

 

[HUGE McBIGLARGE]

I have all of my oral raws (tadalafil, melatonin, and letrozole) bagged in 10-year quantities. I do this as I’d rather store 10x10 year bags than 100x1 year bags.

When I crack open a new bag, I make 10x 1 year quantities from that bag, and rebag them, and use them from there. When using a year’s supply, I put it into an opaque glass bottle, along with an o2 absorber and silica pack. I then microspoon my doses as needed. If I’m dealing with drugs taken in very low quantities (like letrozole), I mix it with MCC.

I’m quite happy with this system. However, I’m considering freezing my oral raws.

My question is: how much does a freeze-thaw cycle damage the drugs? I suspect that over the course of my life my lifetime supply of drugs may need to be thawed and refrozen a dozen times. Is it preferable to keep my drugs frozen for 70 years with a freeze-thaw cycle every few years, or to just keep them at room temperature forever?

 

[Ghoul]

I have all of my oral raws (tadalafil, melatonin, and letrozole) bagged in 10-year quantities. I do this as I’d rather store 10x10 year bags than 100x1 year bags.

When I crack open a new bag, I make 10x 1 year quantities from that bag, and rebag them, and use them from there. When using a year’s supply, I put it into an opaque glass bottle, along with an o2 absorber and silica pack. I then microspoon my doses as needed. If I’m dealing with drugs taken in very low quantities (like letrozole), I mix it with MCC.

I’m quite happy with this system. However, I’m considering freezing my oral raws.

My question is: how much does a freeze-thaw cycle damage the drugs? I suspect that over the course of my life my lifetime supply of drugs may need to be thawed and refrozen a dozen times. Is it preferable to keep my drugs frozen for 70 years with a freeze-thaw cycle every few years, or to just keep them at room temperature forever?

There's no question long term freezing of dry powders slows degradation, on average by 10x, vs room temp storage. Nearly every chemical process when frozen, but continuously breaks down chemicals at room temp.

The only issue, and this is common sense, is water ingress from condensation.

Just leave it out for an hour to completely come to room temp before opening.

Personally I'd at least split them in half so only part of my supply would be damaged if something went wrong like a leaking bag.

 

[HUGE McBIGLARGE]

There's no question long term freezing of dry powders slows degradation, on average by 10x, vs room temp storage. Nearly every chemical process when frozen, but continuously breaks down chemicals at room temp.

The only issue, and this is common sense, is water ingress from condensation.

Just leave it out for an hour to completely come to room temp before opening.

Personally I'd at least split them in half so only part of my supply would be damaged if something went wrong like a leaking bag.

Nice one. Thanks man. I’ll freeze them next time I open a bag.

Made a note to leave them at room temp for 3 hours before opening.

The drugs are in a vacuum sealed bag, in a vacuum sealed Mylar bag, in another vacuum sealed bag. So I suspect these fuckers could withstand having a shower with me.

 

[Sampei]

Why would moisture in raws at room temperature, a temperature that allows hydrolysis reactions to degrade chemicals, not harm the raw but freezing it in a sealed bag, a temperature that stops hydrolysis reactions, would?

Folks have it backwards. Small molecule chemicals are largely immune to freezing damaging anything. Peptides are not, with the 1-2% residual moisture forming crystals physically damaging the structure of the peptide. .

Because there is no moisture at room temperature if it's sealed with oxygen absorber in a vacuum sealed bag.

Anyway ppl will make their choices based on their assessment. I don't freeze my raws and I'll not freeze them as I feel it's completely unnecessary and it creates for me an additional point of failure.

 

[readalot]

Team Fridge for the win!

If I had any raws that is.

Dessicant + O2 packs....

R

Post in thread 'Qingdao Sigma Chemical Co., Ltd (International, US, EU, Canada and Australia domestic'

Aug 17, 2025

Using Q10 factor of 2** (reaction rate doubles for every 10 deg C), then going from 22 deg C (room temp) to 2 deg C (fridge temp) reduces degradation rate by factor of 4.

** only strictly accurate for activation energy = 50 kJ/mol. Rough math.

ASTM F1980 Accelerated Aging Calculator - Quest Engineering Solutions

qes.com

30 vs 50 vs 70 kJ/mol
2.5x, 4.6x, 8.5x
For 4 deg C to 25 deg C

The rule of 2 is just simple rule of thumb. I will spare the details.

Thermal Degradation of Vegetable Oils - PMC

Vegetable oils provide lipids and nutrition and provide foods with a desirable flavor, color, and crispy texture when used to prepare fried foods. However, the oil quality is degraded at elevated temperatures, and thus must be examined frequently ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This ref indicates Ea closer to 30 kJ/mol but this is high temp regime. That would result in 2.5x...

• readalot

• 

Vials too.

Freezer. Nah. You'll be dead before you'd use them after that many years. And as @Sampei states, people will find a way to screw up the freezer play.