Sex Hormone Binding Globulin [SHBG]

[James23]

A psychiatric illness would not cause his estrogen to double.

It stands to reason that a man who does not respond subjectively to ham-handed, single hormone replacement likely has a more complicated hormonal issue verus a thinking problem.

Either way, if you really want to "chase a ghost" then chasing "brain fog" will have you spinning in more circles than hormones ever will. The brain is a black box, and anti-depressant medications are all shots in the dark.

Bottom line: This isn't a mental health board. This is a progressive hormone related board and the OP wants his hormones discussed. So, piss off, Dr. Offtopic. Nobody in this thread appreciates your continual trolling, insults and derailing of the conversation.

Can't you handle leaving us alone?

 

[Dr JIM]

Well check it out he asked for and opinion and most assuredly he wasn't only referring to "yours" as head of the low SHBG foundation.

(Hey did you ever locate any evidence to support the SHBG garbage you have spewed on this thread alone, NOT!)

But then again I wouldn't expect YOU to understand MOST ailments are multi/factorial in their causation and the most effective therapies involve an "all cause approach" to disease processes whenever possible.

The list is endless really from CA, HTN, Depression or even endocrine disorders such as DM and even the "response to TRT."

So clown your one size fits all therapy for those with complaints which may mimic "lowTT" once again is not based on sound medical evidence but conjured up in your pea sized two neuron brain.

Finally James if you understood a damn thing about aromatase kinetics you would be able to correctly explain WHY a TT:E-2 ratio reversal may be noted in those with "low TT" and LXMs situation is entirely consistent with that observation.

One last comment that must be rendered is Meso is an AAS site with MANY subcategory forums. It deals NOT only with hormonal issues but with politics, men's health, exercise etc.

The MEDICAL ADVICE you offer those in need is foolish, dumbfounding, and approximates malfeasance should any of those who act upon it expect a therapeutic benefit.

By chance alone you have not injured someone spewing the crap you offer as advice.

Those are the facts clown get over it or acquire an appropriate education in health related profession.

 

[lxm]

Unsure of where to start. Im going to ramble on about what's happened over the weekend, and then personally reply to Dr'Jims statements.

I came off the testosterone 3 months ago, since then I had been feeling the same rubbish with these symptoms. I thought that my HPTA had fully recovered though 1.5 months after stopping the T due to LH & FSH showing a good number...But maybe I was wrong. On Friday morning (past) I woke up with little symptoms, no brain fog, clear mindset, no grogginess no achey and burning neck, shoulders & blades, upper arms, I had energy and need to get outside, no antisocial moodiness, no 'emotionless' baseline personality.

Previously I wasn't happy, wasn't sad, couldn't really feel emotions such as laughter. enjoyment, excitement. it was empty 'baseline' . so far since friday my constant emotion is contentness and happiness, apart from on sunday evening for around two hours I felt unhappy and emotional (first time being emotional for months and months...)

I noticed immediately on Friday morning that my testicles were full size and hanging greatly for the first time since starting the testosterone therapy, and of course stopping therapy 3 months ago, my penis flaccid was extremely veiny and had a 'semi' volume all day.... (to note ; since stopping TRT the penis has been shrivvled to less than 2" flaccid constantly...as opposed to a normal 3.5-4" flaccid) I still lack libido.... but one step at a time.

Since Friday past, I have continued to have extremely positive days, little symptoms (although still continue to have brain fog it seems after 6pm... my mental clarity almost turns into a 'vegative' , ' zombie' state... and the achey burning neck, shoulders & shoulder blades creep back in the evenings.)

Can I point out that this has been on-going for 4 years, 4 years of no libido, feelings of a vegetative mental state, poor memory, unable to concentrate, groggy mornings, moody unsociable, achey burning muscle and body parts. its only in the last year that I've gone to the doctor to try and find out why...

---------------

I received word regarding my CT, the scan showed inflammation in my groin area, being lymph nodes. (TBC...)

Dr Jim.

Do you honestly think this could all be in my head ? I know the mind is a mysterious creation.... but why would I mentally when I was 18 and life going well decide to make up all of these symptoms ? From the ages of 18 - 21 I got on with my life struggling with these symptoms, and had no idea what it could be, never looked online or posted on forums, until a year ago I decided that how I was feeling wasn't normal, and that's when all of this investigation started...

I'm open to peoples thoughts, surely if my Endo thought it was psychological he would have said ? and referred me to a psychologist?
-He has stated to me that he thinks that there is a physiological issue on going within my body.
-He has stated that low shgb is normally consistent with a primary underlying issue.
-He has stated that there is a well known consensus within the UK endocrinology society that males with low shgb are 'stuck', plenty of free testosterone, which leads to high levels of aromatase, higher E2 not enough binding protein acting as a buffer, to put the free levels to use, and a borderline total testosterone effected by the increased E2. (As we all know)

Remember I drastically changed my lifestyle as part of my initial doctors diagnosis of 'its all in my head' 2 year ago. for 8 months I went to the gym, lifted weights, carried out cardio... lost 46lbs.....and my testosterone was lower, and E2 even higher... I had no change in symptoms when I changed lifestyle habits.

Dr Jim. You are right, I should be asking my consultant why he is carrying out different tests, and what he's looking for... rather than being blind to it all... But he stated he wanted to cover everything.

Ive had the TRT (sustanon 250mg @ 21 days) and didn't feel good, initially straight after injection for the first 7 days I felt 'wired' and 'depersonalized'...from day 7 - 15 I felt better, and day 16-21 + I felt a wreck.

I am not looking to go back to that, I am being realistic, I see myself coming away from this 'investigation' treatment free and trying to get on with my life again as I tried to do in my late teens for a period of 4 years...hopefully feeling better than before! and of course if any primary conditions pop up, deal with it as best I can.

 

[hardrlz]

lxm can you elaborate more on this lymph node inflammation is it connected with your low T ?

 

[Dr JIM]

Please outline the post where I even remotely imply it's ALL IN YOUR HEAD!

Of course your signs and symptoms are not ALL of a psychogenic nature. So why would you interpret my post as an all or none phenomenon? (Excluding clowns like James leading another misinformed and ill begotten crusade)

Because most folk believe what they want to believe (or is the least disruptive to an individuals known coping experiences) or see what they want to see.

The point of my post is to compel you to pursue another causation for the multitude of symptoms you have, many of which are often observed in those folks who have significant psychosocial problem which are typically UNREALIZED or UNDIAGNOSED.

How can that be you ask? Your comment paraphrased: "I don't have this doom and gloom world coming to an end sensation" and consequently don't suspect the nature of my problem has a psychological basis!

Fella if occult anxiety/depressive disorders were all so simplistic, the number of US psychiatrists needed would fall precipitously. THERE ARE MANY GRADATIONS OF anxiety/depressive disorders

They range in magnitude remarkably from those which may manifest as mental slowing to lack of energy or sexual dysfunction to those of a MUCH more severe nature in which the only escape from "impending doom" is thought to be suicide!

Your history is far to complex for me to begin formulating a reasonably informed diagnosis BUT I DO believe a psychological causation should be considered as a significant contributor to those symptoms you mention.

Moreover I also suspect some underlying psychosocial issues are likely negating your effective response to TRT.

The point, consider my concerns and speak with someone more knowledgeable about your particular case and the possibility a psychogenic etiology is at least IN PART RESPONSIBLE and treatable IF DIAGNOSED!

(I AM NOT SUGGESTING YOUR CONDITION WARRANTS "PSYCH MEDS" OR SOME OTHER BLATANT disregard for psychotherapy and the unfortunate STIGMA associated with such as diagnosis) The latter ONLY ensures a patients perpetual denial a psychogenic causation is possible which ultimately delays effective therapy.

Best to ya fella
jimmy

 

[James23]

Question for the low SHBG guys:

How would you describe your facial hair growth before TRT?

 

[hardrlz]

Compared to other people that i know at my age, i have the least amount of facial hair. It has now started do grow a bit, but its not full, its hard to notice it and its not dense at all. Its mostly developed under the chin but its not very noticeable as i said.

I have one question as well has some of you considered varicocele and is it possible to cause low SHBG and very low testosterone ?

 

[James23]

I have the same experience with facial hair. It grew in under the nose and under the chin (below the neck, only). My cheeks have no beard growth and the moustache under my nose ends right at the lips and does not connect to anything.

I have seen this pattern only in women with PCOS (low SHBG + high free T.) I actually personally know a girl with a "neck beard" and PCOS. Just search Google for "PCOS beard":

https://www.google.com/search?q=PCOS+beard&tbm=isch

I found someone on Jeff's Beard Board complaining of his lack of beard growth, and he had this to add:

"My SHBG levels are also low - actually they are borderline TOO low
(me - 14.40 :: normal range is 14.50 - 48.40)

"So, even though my T levels are on the low end, the low SHBG is actually supposed to be making it more effective.

And yet, all I have to show for it is a measly goatee at age 22, which only appeared from age 20 - 21, and after that nothing. 1 year of Rogaine made the few hairs there a bit thicker, but didn't turn any vellus hairs darker. "

 

[lxm]

I have an SHBG level of 12.7(pre),12 (intra) 11(post) (17-45) NHS range.

Before TRT I had a 'decent' level of facial hair for a 21 year old male;
Full neck, moustache goatee/chin area, medium line on cheek. I also have substantial body hair.

Going on TRT made no difference to new growth, thickness or darkness and now that I have stopped TRT the same consensus stands, I probably grow 2 or 3 new hairs every month (on medium/upper cheek & goatee chin area)

Sorry to de-bunk your thoughts (in my case)

 

[Dr JIM]

Hey James don't forget to tell LXM PCOD does NOT apply to him because he is a male and the last time I checked males have testicles and NOT ovaries
(You see James dysfunctional OVARIES are the causation of PCOD not testicles)

For the 7th time please post ANY article, case study or meta-analysis which substantiate your "concerns" are anything but BUNK for those "with LOW SHBG"

More importantly locate anything including the Ladies Home Journal, which even remotely suggest SHBG is the underlying causation for those with signs/symptoms similar to LXM

Hey James I read an article in Nature a while back where they noted FEMALE humpback whales had issues with low SHBG and it was thought the low SHBG was responsible for the more frequent pregnancy rates of this particular clan.

Yea the were WHALES, FEMALE and lived in the ocean with a multitude of daily stressors humans don't confront but SHIT, let's use that as "evidentiary documentation" to support your comments made to LXM, lol!

GARBAGE IN GARBAGE OUT!

 

[BBC3]

WHERE hair grows is PURELY GENETIC. It is all in DNA coding and how YOUR family line is inclined to grow hair. With that said, YES, body hair growth DOES appear to have a particular SEQUENCE of ORDER at which it INCEPTS - which does appear somewhat "universal" in both males and females...

With that said, it could be the case that genetically a person's body hair ceases to grow readily beyond a mustache and goatee (commonly first areas of male facial hair pattern of growth), and it may very well be that this is due to a decrease in testosterone, particular derivative or other hormone, and as a DECREASE with relation to the age of the person. This case it may present that additional exogenous testosterone applied MAY further hair growth along the typical male patterns. But AGAIN, the decrease in hormones which ceased or decreased the hair growth in question was also a function of GENETICS.

To ANYONE WONDERING.. You will continue to grow body hair in new areas along these common male patterns TILL THE DAY YOU START TO DIE. I suspect the PINNACLE of hair growth pattern MAY be the NOSE..!! Lol and NO SHIT... So hope you don't get that far.. But this may mark the end of hair growth as life. IMHO. I also suspect that ear hair marks the Decline to Death. LOL. But I am not contradicting myself am it. That stuff looks more life FUZZ.. [)][)]

** And you have not lived until you see something on your chin which looks like a foreign piece of debris and realize IT IS ATTACHED. Then plucking it to find its a hair, and so big that you can put it to your lips to it, and if you blow hard enough then blow the "guts" out of it and use it for a STRAW...!

@James - Are you attempting to correlate hair growth and SHBG??

@Whoever is concerned about LACK of body hair growth as a perceived MILD deficiency to the NORMS - I think you should probably consider that this is proven scientifically to be a plus in men - healthwise and overall.

 

[weekend]

Re: LEF's Take on Low SHBG

how do different values of SHBG affect the gains on cycle?

 

[corageon]

WHERE hair grows is PURELY GENETIC. It is all in DNA coding and how YOUR family line is inclined to grow hair. With that said, YES, body hair growth DOES appear to have a particular SEQUENCE of ORDER at which it INCEPTS - which does appear somewhat "universal" in both males and females...

With that said, it could be the case that genetically a person's body hair ceases to grow readily beyond a mustache and goatee (commonly first areas of male facial hair pattern of growth), and it may very well be that this is due to a decrease in testosterone, particular derivative or other hormone, and as a DECREASE with relation to the age of the person. This case it may present that additional exogenous testosterone applied MAY further hair growth along the typical male patterns. But AGAIN, the decrease in hormones which ceased or decreased the hair growth in question was also a function of GENETICS.

To ANYONE WONDERING.. You will continue to grow body hair in new areas along these common male patterns TILL THE DAY YOU START TO DIE. I suspect the PINNACLE of hair growth pattern MAY be the NOSE..!! Lol and NO SHIT... So hope you don't get that far.. But this may mark the end of hair growth as life. IMHO. I also suspect that ear hair marks the Decline to Death. LOL. But I am not contradicting myself am it. That stuff looks more life FUZZ.. [)][)]

** And you have not lived until you see something on your chin which looks like a foreign piece of debris and realize IT IS ATTACHED. Then plucking it to find its a hair, and so big that you can put it to your lips to it, and if you blow hard enough then blow the "guts" out of it and use it for a STRAW...!

@James - Are you attempting to correlate hair growth and SHBG??

@Whoever is concerned about LACK of body hair growth as a perceived MILD deficiency to the NORMS - I think you should probably consider that this is proven scientifically to be a plus in men - healthwise and overall.

Hair Growth also has something to do with metabolism, people with hyperthyroidism almost never grow much if any facial hair. Of course, TSH increases SHBG as well so there might because of that over active metabolism be less DHT. And an overproduction of adrenaline/histamine would lower DHT.

 

[corageon]

Re: LEF's Take on Low SHBG

how do different values of SHBG affect the gains on cycle?

Less SHBG = stronger motivation/nervous system, higher libido, more brain effects of testosterone, and more lean/dry muscle growth as long as estrogen is in proper ratio. Hence why Proviron is used - to crush SHBG.

Most pro'BB's crush SHBG to zero = Dry vascular look, improves composition/solidity

 

[James23]

BBC, I'm just checking to see if the low SHBG crowd had experienced the same kind of stunted growth. I've only ever seen my beard pattern in women with PCOS which is the female version of high free testosterone and low SHBG. SHBG increases as puberty ends, which may indeed be the extra signal at the androgen receptor for cheek and lower mouth hair follicles to begin to sprout hair since the testosterone spike of puberty only seems to sprout the neck and hair under the nose.

 

[hardrlz]

James what do you think about varicocele have you been checked for it and is it possible to cause such low testosterone and SHBG ?

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Hua X, Sun Y, Zhong Y, et al. Low serum sex hormone-binding globulin is associated with nonalcoholic fatty liver disease in type 2 diabetic patients. Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). Low serum sex hormone-binding globulin is associated with nonalcoholic fatty liver disease in type 2 diabetic patients - Hua - 2013 - Clinical Endocrinology - Wiley Online Library

INTRODUCTION: Studies have indicated that low serum sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) and testosterone levels are associated with nonalcoholic fatty liver disease (NAFLD). However, it remains unclear whether an association exists between SHBG and NAFLD independent of testosterone.

OBJECTIVE: This study was aimed to investigate the relationship between SHBG and both total and free testosterone levels with NAFLD.

SUBJECTS AND MEASURES: One hundred and twenty patients with NAFLD and 120 age-, sex- and BMI-matched patients with non-NAFLD were enrolled into a case-control study. Serums SHBG, total testosterone (TT), liver enzymes, lipids, insulin, C-peptide and plasma glucose were measured. Free testosterone (FT) and fatty liver index were calculated.

RESULTS: Serum SHBG levels were significantly lower in NAFLD group than in non-NAFLD group (24.5 +/- 11.0 vs 37.6 +/- 14.4 nm, P < 0.001). After adjustment for age, smoking status, alcohol use, duration of diabetes, BMI and fasting C-peptide, serum SHBG levels in men and women were inversely associated with NAFLD, with odds ratio (OR) and 95% confidence interval (CI) in the forth quartile as 0.05 (0.01-0.30) and 0.25 (0.08-0.77) compared with the first quartile (OR = 1.00). Additional adjustment for TT in men and FT in women did not materially alter the association. The relationship between serum TT (for men) and FT (for women) with NAFLD was attenuated and even diminished after multivariable adjustment for known risk factors and SHBG.

CONCLUSION: Low serum SHBG levels, but not TT or FT, are associated with NAFLD in type 2 diabetic patients.

 

[Dr JIM]

Yea James what you think about the low "T" / SHBG and VARICOCELE association?

It's referenced in some blogs ya know but I'm curious what your "research and experience" has uncovered, LOL!

 

[James23]

While decreased SHBG output may be a symptom of varicocele, I do not think it is a consideration if all other hormones appear to be within normal ranges.

The low SHBG associated with varicocele appears to be concomitant with the low testosterone and/or the hypothyroidism caused by reduced testicular production of testosterone.

Replacing testosterone in men with varicocele normally alleviates the symptoms of low testosterone (but not the physical discomfort caused by the varicocele.)

 

[Dr JIM]

Since the SHBG androgen sites are essentially SATURATED once endogenous TT reached 500 ng/dl, someone's SHBG value have LITTLE or NO INFLUENCE on exogenous AAS levels while cycling.

So could/should a mates SHBG LEVEL alter the response to cycling?
(such as warrant a change in dosing)

NO!!

Why? Because SHBG is essentially "SATURATED" while cycling.

So the "extra AAS" has only THREE possible destinations once released from the parenteral DEPOT.

Included are:

1) intercellular/extracellular binding
2) free "floating" within serum
3) bound to ALBUMIN

Because at TT levels of even 1000 ng/dl LESS THAN 1% of albumin sites are "occupied" the majority of that cycled anabolic will become BOUND TO ALBUMIN, (albumin can NOT saturate it's sites regardless of the "AAS level")