Should I fear the estrogen

[Delgado4604]

Hey board! Long time lurker/ new member here. So this being my first post is mainly a concern towards my estrogen levels. First I will give some background and my stats.



I was doctor prescribed onto a trt protocol 3 years ago which I basically stuck to at 180mg/w pinned twice a week. Never used an ai over the last 3 years never had any issues or estrogen sides. Always felt great estradial always sat around 54. I’ve always been skinny/fat and in the last 3 years I completely recomped my body and went from 165ibs to 175ibs at a height of 5 11”. Now about 8 weeks ago I decided to take the plunge and run more of a real cycle. I’ve been on 400mg/w test and 200mg/w deca. Still not using ai and feel amazing 8 weeks in and went from 175ibs-190ibs maintaining almost the same body fat % with a 500 calorie surplus. I am basically at a halt on the weight gain at 190 on 4K calories a day but still hitting prs at the gym. My main concern is my estradial level. It might be in my head but I know ai can really mess with my lipid panel amongst other issues. I am sitting at 81pg/ml estradial now and estrogen total serum 399pg/ml . I still feel amazing and no sides aside from my erections being a bit weaker but Cialis is an easy fix. I’m wondering if this issue is due to the high estrogen or the introduction of deca in the mix. I supplement with p5p since day one of this cycle just in case 200mg daily. My prolactin and progesterone levels are in range as well. I’ve had 0 issues with blood pressure and my cholesterol levels are all in perfect range. I do take 5mg of rovustatin that’s kept my ldl under 100 on this cycle. My main concern is having elevated estrogen for all these years. is it an issue long term say on the prostate or anything of that nature ? Should I introduce my prescribed anastrozole if I don’t have any sides ? I should also add that I plan on running this cocktail for the rest of the year unless I see any blood markers out of wack. I’m open to suggestions on dosing and length for this mix. I’ve gotten amazing results this far and I’m in a “sweet spot “ so to say





P.S blood work was done 8 weeks into my cycle



Stats:

31 years old

5 11”

190ibs

Test 400mg/w

Deca 200mg/w

Estradial 81

Estrogen 399

All other parameters in range



Supplements:

Fish oil

Magnesium

Baby aspirin

Cialis

Vitamin d3

Vitamin c

Vitamin b5 p5p



Concerns :

weaker erections

Long term affects of elevated estrogen

 

[Davidinovg]

Use your AI only if u have sides, since u don't I won't but always stay on top of that, ur feelings and gyno as u never know.

U doing a great job as well with bloodwork so if u feel good keep all as it is! U need estrogen to grow!

I feel good with ur range of E2, around 40/60 on me is the sweet spot.

 

[Delgado4604]

Use your AI only if u have sides, since u don't I won't but always stay on top of that, ur feelings and gyno as u never know.

U doing a great job as well with bloodwork so if u feel good keep all as it is! U need estrogen to grow!

I feel good with ur range of E2, around 40/60 on me is the sweet spot.

thank you for the reply you’re reassuring what I was thinking. Honestly this is the best I’ve ever felt I feel so “normal like myself but upgraded“ on this cycle with my levels as they are. No mental issues either clear headed as day I couldn’t be happier. I plan on running this as long as my bloods keep coming back perfect as they have been so we’ll see what happens. Next step is figuring out if I should continue on the 4K calories I’m on I feel like I’m at 15-20% body fat but I don’t move from 190 anymore. Definitely feel like I’m making gains still just not crazy that I can’t see my abs anymore but I don’t have love handles or a gut at all so idk. Again thanks for the reply!

 

[laclark89]

I honestly dnt care what my estrogen is or my test levels are as long as my sex drive is good an I'm not growing tits. Estrogen makes u strong joints feel better and good sex drive.

 

[laclark89]

Be more affraid of low estrogen

 

[Delgado4604]

I honestly dnt care what my estrogen is or my test levels are as long as my sex drive is good an I'm not growing tits. Estrogen makes u strong joints feel better and good sex drive.

That makes sense cause I’ve always been injury prone with shitty shoulders joints and I feel great now overhead pressing and all. Still careful with a lot of warm up but yeah makes sense. Luckily I’m not esto sensitive so no tits or emotions on 400 I’m sure I can go higher who knows. Libido is through the roof though. Every now and then I’ll have a weak erection but I’m starting to think it’s in my head prob forcing it cause when I don’t think about it it’s all there lol

 

[Davidinovg]

That makes sense cause I’ve always been injury prone with shitty shoulders joints and I feel great now overhead pressing and all. Still careful with a lot of warm up but yeah makes sense. Luckily I’m not esto sensitive so no tits or emotions on 400 I’m sure I can go higher who knows. Libido is through the roof though. Every now and then I’ll have a weak erection but I’m starting to think it’s in my head prob forcing it cause when I don’t think about it it’s all there lol

Cialis is ur help in that case, 10 mg of pharma grade and I'm golden

 

[petefox]

Don't be afraid of estrogen, most times it's not the culprit.

I would be more proactive with my estrogen metabolism than trying to eradicate it totally. Calcium D-Glucarate, Di-Indole Methane (DIM) and Damiana Leaf are good natty products that help with keeping levels within range.

I take 200mg DIM daily, levels never go past 60pg..

 

[lars49]

Where to begin, this touches on a nitpick I've had for a really long time. So, to each is own. But for me, the short answer is yes.

One of the most annoying things I see in the TRT community (particularly on Youtube) is bros spreading pro-estrogen dogma. Everything from "don't worry about E2," "aromatase inhibitors are toxic," to shit as bizarre as "estrogen is a systemic health hormone!"

I agree with essentially none of it, except for maybe the idea AI's are toxic. Half the risks from androgen therapy is due to the aromatization process. High blood pressure, edema, thrombosis and heart attacks, irritability, sexual dysfunction, and depression are all made worse when estrogen is out of control. Now, what constitutes as "out of control?" Smarter minds than me might could help answer that.

As a general rule of thumb I typically always question pre-designated reference ranges on labs. And estrogen is no exception. As long as nothing looks majorly out of whack, then I'm far more supportive of going by personal symptoms (or lack thereof).

I think overall androgenicity to estrogenicity ratio plays an important role. It's not uncommon for hypogonadal men to have low estrogen just as much as low testosterone. But their T:E2 ratio is what's damaged the most, leading to the adipose accumulation, lack of drive, sexual dysfunction, depression, etc. And since estrogen stimulates CRH and ACTH, it increases the level of cortisol being secreted, which can increase the depressive (glucocorticoid antagonists have been studied for possible treatment to depression) effects of estrogen dominance even more, while eliciting an irritable hostility.

Estrogen also increases the action of tryptophan hydroxylase, which creates higher amounts of serotonin, both estrogen and serotonin can synergize in suppressing gonadotropin and LH, while increasing prolactin. Which can contribute to a really nasty feedback loop keeping you stuck in this situation until you intervene and fix it.

The one thing I do happen to agree with is the toxic effect of many aromatase inhibiting drugs, like Arimidex. Which can increase autoimmunity. Exemestane can be bad as well if you fuck up and take too much, because being a suicidal inhibitor you'll be in a prolonged state of low estrogen until you can make more aromatase. Low estrogen is also bad, which I'm sure you're well aware of. But there's much safer ways to control estrogen than AI's anyway.

Lower more frequent dosages of T can help prevent the rise in estrogen. Fat soluble vitamins A, D, & E can help. Vitamin E is actually an antagonist at the estrogen receptor. Zinc and/or aspirin act as mild aromatase inhibitors. Various flavonoids have been used and being researched for aromatase antagonism, some of them being quite potent in fact (look up 7-hydroxy-4-imidazolylflavan). 5ar androgens such as DHT can also keep the lid on estrogen. Interestingly, another commenter mentioned cialis for helping with erection quality, it also seems to help with the testosterone:estradiol ratio, and the mechanism behind which is hypothesized to be aromatase inhibition! (R)

So if you ask me, yes I do fear estrogen. But this is a personal thing for me. I am also biased, and I deal with a condition that makes me more sensitive to estrogen and higher aromatase activity. When people like Derek get on Youtube and talk about the glories of estrogen, I think they forget they're talking to a much wider audience than just heavy cycle users who also use very potent and potentially toxic AI drugs that can easily crash E2. To those people, low estrogen is certainly a problematic situation. But to tell the "Average Joe" out here he shouldn't worry about estrogen is misleading and potentially dangerous advice.

 

[120nmol]

My perfect hdl got smashed in 3 weeks of using arimidex so I stopped got myself aromasin now but not using it lower my t dose and added dim 200mg and calcium d glucarate 1g and I feel ok..
But I noticed the lower my e2 the better I feel I guess after blood work I'll add aromasin if my hdl came back to life..
General questions if it is.. best t:e2 ratio ?

 

[Delgado4604]

Where to begin, this touches on a nitpick I've had for a really long time. So, to each is own. But for me, the short answer is yes.

One of the most annoying things I see in the TRT community (particularly on Youtube) is bros spreading pro-estrogen dogma. Everything from "don't worry about E2," "aromatase inhibitors are toxic," to shit as bizarre as "estrogen is a systemic health hormone!"

I agree with essentially none of it, except for maybe the idea AI's are toxic. Half the risks from androgen therapy is due to the aromatization process. High blood pressure, edema, thrombosis and heart attacks, irritability, sexual dysfunction, and depression are all made worse when estrogen is out of control. Now, what constitutes as "out of control?" Smarter minds than me might could help answer that.

As a general rule of thumb I typically always question pre-designated reference ranges on labs. And estrogen is no exception. As long as nothing looks majorly out of whack, then I'm far more supportive of going by personal symptoms (or lack thereof).

I think overall androgenicity to estrogenicity ratio plays an important role. It's not uncommon for hypogonadal men to have low estrogen just as much as low testosterone. But their T:E2 ratio is what's damaged the most, leading to the adipose accumulation, lack of drive, sexual dysfunction, depression, etc. And since estrogen stimulates CRH and ACTH, it increases the level of cortisol being secreted, which can increase the depressive (glucocorticoid antagonists have been studied for possible treatment to depression) effects of estrogen dominance even more, while eliciting an irritable hostility.

Estrogen also increases the action of tryptophan hydroxylase, which creates higher amounts of serotonin, both estrogen and serotonin can synergize in suppressing gonadotropin and LH, while increasing prolactin. Which can contribute to a really nasty feedback loop keeping you stuck in this situation until you intervene and fix it.

The one thing I do happen to agree with is the toxic effect of many aromatase inhibiting drugs, like Arimidex. Which can increase autoimmunity. Exemestane can be bad as well if you fuck up and take too much, because being a suicidal inhibitor you'll be in a prolonged state of low estrogen until you can make more aromatase. Low estrogen is also bad, which I'm sure you're well aware of. But there's much safer ways to control estrogen than AI's anyway.

Lower more frequent dosages of T can help prevent the rise in estrogen. Fat soluble vitamins A, D, & E can help. Vitamin E is actually an antagonist at the estrogen receptor. Zinc and/or aspirin act as mild aromatase inhibitors. Various flavonoids have been used and being researched for aromatase antagonism, some of them being quite potent in fact (look up 7-hydroxy-4-imidazolylflavan). 5ar androgens such as DHT can also keep the lid on estrogen. Interestingly, another commenter mentioned cialis for helping with erection quality, it also seems to help with the testosterone:estradiol ratio, and the mechanism behind which is hypothesized to be aromatase inhibition! (R)

So if you ask me, yes I do fear estrogen. But this is a personal thing for me. I am also biased, and I deal with a condition that makes me more sensitive to estrogen and higher aromatase activity. When people like Derek get on Youtube and talk about the glories of estrogen, I think they forget they're talking to a much wider audience than just heavy cycle users who also use very potent and potentially toxic AI drugs that can easily crash E2. To those people, low estrogen is certainly a problematic situation. But to tell the "Average Joe" out here he shouldn't worry about estrogen is misleading and potentially dangerous advice.

Interesting take on it all one can do is monitor themselves for overall health and be educated on knowing what to look out for at the end of the day right? I like reading other takes on this. Good thing is I’m not sensitive at all it seems and my ldl cholesterol sits at 97 luckily too so I worry with the ais. I take vitamin d aspirin and Cialis regularly maybe that contributes to my conversion rates as well

 

[Delgado4604]

Don't be afraid of estrogen, most times it's not the culprit.

I would be more proactive with my estrogen metabolism than trying to eradicate it totally. Calcium D-Glucarate, Di-Indole Methane (DIM) and Damiana Leaf are good natty products that help with keeping levels within range.

I take 200mg DIM daily, levels never go past 60pg..

I’ll look into those thanks man!

 

[Type-IIx]

Where to begin, this touches on a nitpick I've had for a really long time. So, to each is own. But for me, the short answer is yes.

One of the most annoying things I see in the TRT community (particularly on Youtube) is bros spreading pro-estrogen dogma. Everything from "don't worry about E2," "aromatase inhibitors are toxic," to shit as bizarre as "estrogen is a systemic health hormone!"

I agree with essentially none of it, except for maybe the idea AI's are toxic. Half the risks from androgen therapy is due to the aromatization process. High blood pressure, edema, thrombosis and heart attacks, irritability, sexual dysfunction, and depression are all made worse when estrogen is out of control. Now, what constitutes as "out of control?" Smarter minds than me might could help answer that.

As a general rule of thumb I typically always question pre-designated reference ranges on labs. And estrogen is no exception. As long as nothing looks majorly out of whack, then I'm far more supportive of going by personal symptoms (or lack thereof).

I think overall androgenicity to estrogenicity ratio plays an important role. It's not uncommon for hypogonadal men to have low estrogen just as much as low testosterone. But their T:E2 ratio is what's damaged the most, leading to the adipose accumulation, lack of drive, sexual dysfunction, depression, etc. And since estrogen stimulates CRH and ACTH, it increases the level of cortisol being secreted, which can increase the depressive (glucocorticoid antagonists have been studied for possible treatment to depression) effects of estrogen dominance even more, while eliciting an irritable hostility.

Estrogen also increases the action of tryptophan hydroxylase, which creates higher amounts of serotonin, both estrogen and serotonin can synergize in suppressing gonadotropin and LH, while increasing prolactin. Which can contribute to a really nasty feedback loop keeping you stuck in this situation until you intervene and fix it.

The one thing I do happen to agree with is the toxic effect of many aromatase inhibiting drugs, like Arimidex. Which can increase autoimmunity. Exemestane can be bad as well if you fuck up and take too much, because being a suicidal inhibitor you'll be in a prolonged state of low estrogen until you can make more aromatase. Low estrogen is also bad, which I'm sure you're well aware of. But there's much safer ways to control estrogen than AI's anyway.

Lower more frequent dosages of T can help prevent the rise in estrogen. Fat soluble vitamins A, D, & E can help. Vitamin E is actually an antagonist at the estrogen receptor. Zinc and/or aspirin act as mild aromatase inhibitors. Various flavonoids have been used and being researched for aromatase antagonism, some of them being quite potent in fact (look up 7-hydroxy-4-imidazolylflavan). 5ar androgens such as DHT can also keep the lid on estrogen. Interestingly, another commenter mentioned cialis for helping with erection quality, it also seems to help with the testosterone:estradiol ratio, and the mechanism behind which is hypothesized to be aromatase inhibition! (R)

So if you ask me, yes I do fear estrogen. But this is a personal thing for me. I am also biased, and I deal with a condition that makes me more sensitive to estrogen and higher aromatase activity. When people like Derek get on Youtube and talk about the glories of estrogen, I think they forget they're talking to a much wider audience than just heavy cycle users who also use very potent and potentially toxic AI drugs that can easily crash E2. To those people, low estrogen is certainly a problematic situation. But to tell the "Average Joe" out here he shouldn't worry about estrogen is misleading and potentially dangerous advice.

Good points. Very good points. Where would you put the threshold above which AI use outweighs its risks on average (despite being asymptomatic)? I want to say, somewhat arbitrarily, 75 pg/mL.

 

[CaptainAll]

I took 1500mg Sustanon per week for 10 weeks with 0 Serms or AI. Real Aspen Sustanon. Bloodwork showed T in 10000+

Felt amazing. From libido to gym results. Why would I ever need to take an AI? Just why? No gyno, nothing.

 

[lars49]

Good points. Very good points. Where would you put the threshold above which AI use outweighs its risks on average (despite being asymptomatic)? I want to say, somewhat arbitrarily, 75 pg/mL.

That would be tough to call. For me 75 pg/mL would be too high. When mine gets higher than 40 I'm already implementing a protocol to bring it back down.

I would probably say 75 pg/ml is too high for most men. Pretty sure it was that Danny Bossa guy on Youtube that suggested to never touch E2, even if it gets above 100 pg/ml. Very dangerous to be telling people that.

Even if someone is asymptomatic to high levels of estrogen, at some point the deleterious health effects outweigh any sort of "benefit" of leaving it high. Men don't have the levels of progesterone women have, so they're not going to be protected from really high levels of estrogen.

Also when women lose their progesterone in menopause their risk for premature death from stuff like heart attacks is just as high as men. And when they go on HRT they have to get both estrogen AND progesterone to lower this risk. When they take estrogen only it doesn't improve their outcomes.

 

[29trt]

That would be tough to call. For me 75 pg/mL would be too high. When mine gets higher than 40 I'm already implementing a protocol to bring it back down.

I would probably say 75 pg/ml is too high for most men. Pretty sure it was that Danny Bossa guy on Youtube that suggested to never touch E2, even if it gets above 100 pg/ml. Very dangerous to be telling people that.

Even if someone is asymptomatic to high levels of estrogen, at some point the deleterious health effects outweigh any sort of "benefit" of leaving it high. Men don't have the levels of progesterone women have, so they're not going to be protected from really high levels of estrogen.

Also when women lose their progesterone in menopause their risk for premature death from stuff like heart attacks is just as high as men. And when they go on HRT they have to get both estrogen AND progesterone to lower this risk. When they take estrogen only it doesn't improve their outcomes.

isn't progesterone elevated in men using AAS? or do you mean that we do not reach female levels of progesterone in order to be protected from high estrogen?
would be interesting to compare progesterone levels from guys that run high T with high E2 and have no sides with guys that get sides from high E2.

 

[Type-IIx]

isn't progesterone elevated in men using AAS? or do you mean that we do not reach female levels of progesterone in order to be protected from high estrogen?
would be interesting to compare progesterone levels from guys that run high T with high E2 and have no sides with guys that get sides from high E2.

No, progesterone is not elevated in men using AAS under normal circumstances. Nonaromatizable androgens decrease prolactin while estrogens increase it. See Article on distinguishing progestins, prolactin, and progestagenic androgens (e.g., Tren, MENT, Deca) & SERM vs. AI logic [by Type-IIx]

 

[Type-IIx]

That would be tough to call. For me 75 pg/mL would be too high. When mine gets higher than 40 I'm already implementing a protocol to bring it back down.

I would probably say 75 pg/ml is too high for most men. Pretty sure it was that Danny Bossa guy on Youtube that suggested to never touch E2, even if it gets above 100 pg/ml. Very dangerous to be telling people that.

Even if someone is asymptomatic to high levels of estrogen, at some point the deleterious health effects outweigh any sort of "benefit" of leaving it high. Men don't have the levels of progesterone women have, so they're not going to be protected from really high levels of estrogen.

Also when women lose their progesterone in menopause their risk for premature death from stuff like heart attacks is just as high as men. And when they go on HRT they have to get both estrogen AND progesterone to lower this risk. When they take estrogen only it doesn't improve their outcomes.

I always stick to the context of the AAS-using population here and remember the controlling influence of A/E ratio that will always be high in this population.

In this context, blood concentrations ≥ 75 pg/mL E2 necessarily arise as a product of very AAS high doses, usually of T, but also sometimes in combination with boldenone, nandrolone, metandienone (rarely methyltestosterone), or MENT - on a rough continuum of aromatic product potencies.

Serum E2 ≥ 40 pg/mL for a TRT user is a far lower A/E ratio than two-fold greater E2 concentrations in a guy running above 1.5 g of weekly testosterone-equivalent androgen.

Alas, it certainly is difficult to ascribe an arbitrary threshold, I agree completely - especially due to inter-individual variations in tolerability.

I've just written an article for the main site to be published soon on the topic of inter-individual differences in estrogenicity (effects associated with ER- α & β) with absolutely no reliance on such arbitrary values. Broadly, the article is about "crashed" E2 from EQ and/or Primo; but delves into the factors that cause wide divergence in these effects between users.

 

[29trt]

No, progesterone is not elevated in men using AAS under normal circumstances. Nonaromatizable androgens decrease prolactin while estrogens increase it. See Article on distinguishing progestins, prolactin, and progestagenic androgens (e.g., Tren, MENT, Deca) & SERM vs. AI logic [by Type-IIx]

I was just parroting like an idiot what I heard some coach say on a podcast that he saw on hundreds of blood tests.
It was in the context of people taking caber for no reason when usually prolactin is not elevated but progesterone is...
I thought he had no reason to lie about it...

 

[Type-IIx]

I was just parroting like an idiot what I heard some coach say on a podcast that he saw on hundreds of blood tests.
It was in the context of people taking caber for no reason when usually prolactin is not elevated but progesterone is...
I thought he had no reason to lie about it...

Hanlon's razor is an adage that states basically: do not attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity, laziness, or ignorance. However, in the case of fitness professionals, do attribute to malice that which they market themselves on and derive income (e.g., their "pet concepts"; generating newsworthy content that drives ad revenue by clicks).

His point that caber is unnecessarily used by bodybuilders is correct in its conclusion though. People take this dopaminergic agent unnecessarily because they believe that it will forestall sexual dysfunction as a result of, e.g., trenbolone. However, since trenbolone reduces prolactin, all that they really end up doing is taking a drug that enhances sex by reducing the male refractory period.