Simplicity, consistency, accountability

[twreck555]

I’ll give you a couple things to ponder but that’s the best I can do…

1) test prop / ace gives me best feeling of any test in terms of libido, feel good, etc at same dose of cyp / enth
2) you used primo which is known to crash e2, you also lowered your test dose too. Not sure how long you discontinued primo but perhaps you’re getting some residual e2 blunting from using it. Primo also, regardless of my e2 levels, kind of blunts my emotions. I don’t get happy happy but I don’t get sad sad. I just feel flat. I don’t like that about it but I love everything else. Does same thing to my libido.
3) I think there is something to be said for having peaks and troughs instead of ultra stable levels
4) you’ve changed quite a bit in a short time. I’m guilty of doing the same thing. If you decide to change stuff again, perhaps make a deal with yourself in what exactly the protocol will be and exactly how long will you stick with it before further altering stuff.

You’re an intelligent guy and I don’t believe in trying to tell you what you should do. I know what I would do, and I know what others will advise.

Often times what I would do isn’t what I think others should do or what others would advise, lol.

Disclaimer: The opinions expressed are solely my own and should not be interpreted as medical advice. I am not a licensed medical professional. I am not qualified to give medical advice. YMMV.

Thanks man, good advice as always.

I am aware that I am rapidly becoming a stereotype.

When I make the switch. I'll stay for four weeks and then go get bloods. After which we'll reassess.

We'll see if esters switching makes a difference. I have a feeling that it will, but if not I can always change back, or try something different.

I admit that the primo may be affecting things, but I get the feeling that my body is not liking the constant stimulation of the long esters.

The main reason for me to try this, though, is this:

One of the primary reasons for me getting on TRT in the first place was to address a profound lack of libido. There have been multiple periods of time in the last year when I literally have not even thought about sex for months at a time. When first getting on testosterone, this did improve noticeably, but that only lasted for a few weeks before fading again. When I got on the primo it improved again, but I thought better of the primo and pulled it. After that libido rapidly crashed back to zero and has not budged since. Zero. No interest whatsoever.

This clearly is not a tolerable state of existence and so if there is something that I can try, that isn't likely to take 6-8 weeks to see if it's even going to help, well... I'm damn well going to try it.

Granted there are confounding variables, and I'm working on those, but in my case that could take upwards of a year. I'd like to try what I can in the meantime.

I'm at the point where if prop doesn't work i might try cream, or even proviron. We'll see. But I'm hopeful that the prop will help.

 

[twreck555]

Propionate should come in next week. Last dose of cyp was Wednesday and I don’t plan to take any more. Last dose of GH was Sunday. Fluid retention starting to diminish a little bit.

My plan for the propionate is to wait at least seven days from the last dose of cyp, then start at 14 mg/day. Run that for four weeks and then get labs and see where I'm at.

Unfortunately my gym is torn apart for a remodel/reconfiguration to accommodate my new rack which will come in on Tuesday. Won't be up and running probably til the end of next week. The upgrade will be worth it though. I'll post a snapshot when it's all done.

Excited for big changes.

 

[twreck555]

Actually kind of reconsidering my above plan...

I feel like it would be a good idea actually to start the prop at the lowest dose which could conceivably be adequate, especially since there will still be some level of cypionate in my system at first. I believe this level would be 8 mg daily.

I feel like I should stay at this level for four weeks, keeping careful daily track of biometrics and subjective measures, then pull bloods, and reassess.

If things are all green on bloods and subjective measures aren't perfect, titrate up by 2 mg per day and repeat.

Repeat as needed until dialed

 

[Jin23]

Actually kind of reconsidering my above plan...

I feel like it would be a good idea actually to start the prop at the lowest dose which could conceivably be adequate, especially since there will still be some level of cypionate in my system at first. I believe this level would be 8 mg daily.

I feel like I should stay at this level for four weeks, keeping careful daily track of biometrics and subjective measures, then pull bloods, and reassess.

If things are all green on bloods and subjective measures aren't perfect, titrate up by 2 mg per day and repeat.

Repeat as needed until dialed

While I agree you are steering your self more in the right direction, I'd still encourage you to reconsider your frequent dosing and substance changes, especially in regards of chasing some sense of, what I my surmise as "well being". When the observant is the subject being treated, ie. you are using your own subjective interpretation to determine pharmacological intervention which by it self is modulating your subjective experience.

The biggest fault that you're doing is that you are neglecting the fact that you are messing with androgens, which work at the level of gene transcription, ie. their effects take A LONG time to level out. So whilst you are waiting for primo and test levels to drop, you are already using new dosing schema, considering chasing the all too elusive "libido" with proviron (an androgen with strong CNS effects), and at the same time not realizing that the effects of androgens don't wear off simply when their respectable termination half life has run it's course. You've got a shitload off biology that needs to reach homeostasis once let's say primo clears out. From changes in energy expenditure, mitochondria, to neurotransmitter levels, receptor's expression and sensitivity, to electrolyte balance, fluid dynamics, etc. etc. All of this is ofc influencing your own subjective view and rationale. So by changing things so quickly, you've absolutely no "objective" ground to stand on.

You said that I'm perhaps underestimating your knowledge, ... You're intelligent enough to figure this out by yourself with due time, but consider listening to somebody who is maybe similar to you and has been doing this for almost a decade. I might not be as eloquent in my english syntax, as it's my third language, but I do have some idea about what I'm talking about. It's one thing to understand the pharmacodynamics of the drugs that you are using (although you aren't as educated on this front either) and it's a completely other thing self modulating your own treatment plan, especially if you have some issues in your brain reward circuitry.

And please consider that libido isn't at all controlled only by androgens. So don't use it as the main determinant to self modulate androgen use.

 

[Trenbolonetax]

Thanks man, good advice as always.

I am aware that I am rapidly becoming a stereotype.

When I make the switch. I'll stay for four weeks and then go get bloods. After which we'll reassess.

Seems reasonable to me given how quickly prop stabilizes with daily injections.

We'll see if esters switching makes a difference. I have a feeling that it will, but if not I can always change back, or try something different.

I admit that the primo may be affecting things, but I get the feeling that my body is not liking the constant stimulation of the long esters.

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you that it is as simple as changing esters and perhaps waiting a bit more time post cessation of primo.

The main reason for me to try this, though, is this:

One of the primary reasons for me getting on TRT in the first place was to address a profound lack of libido. There have been multiple periods of time in the last year when I literally have not even thought about sex for months at a time. When first getting on testosterone, this did improve noticeably, but that only lasted for a few weeks before fading again. When I got on the primo it improved again, but I thought better of the primo and pulled it. After that libido rapidly crashed back to zero and has not budged since. Zero. No interest whatsoever.

This clearly is not a tolerable state of existence and so if there is something that I can try, that isn't likely to take 6-8 weeks to see if it's even going to help, well... I'm damn well going to try it.

Libido can be a fickle thing. Not that you suggested it, but I can certainly say more test does not = more libido, lol, at least not with any consistency for me. Some of my best libido is on TRT / TRT+ doses.

Granted there are confounding variables, and I'm working on those, but in my case that could take upwards of a year. I'd like to try what I can in the meantime.

I'm at the point where if prop doesn't work i might try cream, or even proviron. We'll see. But I'm hopeful that the prop will help.

Proviron in my experience provides a temporary boost to libido but like most AAS, the honeymoon phase did not last.

Propionate should come in next week. Last dose of cyp was Wednesday and I don’t plan to take any more. Last dose of GH was Sunday. Fluid retention starting to diminish a little bit.

My plan for the propionate is to wait at least seven days from the last dose of cyp, then start at 14 mg/day. Run that for four weeks and then get labs and see where I'm at.

Unfortunately my gym is torn apart for a remodel/reconfiguration to accommodate my new rack which will come in on Tuesday. Won't be up and running probably til the end of next week. The upgrade will be worth it though. I'll post a snapshot when it's all done.

Excited for big changes.

Keep us posted, please, on your journey to figure this out. Could certainly be quite helpful for other folks looking into to see this all laid out and memorialized.

Actually kind of reconsidering my above plan...

I feel like it would be a good idea actually to start the prop at the lowest dose which could conceivably be adequate, especially since there will still be some level of cypionate in my system at first. I believe this level would be 8 mg daily.

That seems incredibly reasonable and responsible to use the lowest dose possible.

I feel like I should stay at this level for four weeks, keeping careful daily track of biometrics and subjective measures, then pull bloods, and reassess.

If things are all green on bloods and subjective measures aren't perfect, titrate up by 2 mg per day and repeat.

Repeat as needed until dialed

This seems reasonable to me. Like Jin mentioned, however, it is not only androgen levels that modulate libido. Dare I say they are less important than all of the other factors that can contribute to libido?

Good luck on your quest. Keep us posted!

 

[Jin23]

Proviron in my experience provides a temporary boost to libido but like most AAS, the honeymoon phase did not last.

Same experience and then a sharp decline and not feeling quite alright for some time. Reading through online posts this seems somewhat the norm.

 

[Trenbolonetax]

Same experience and then a sharp decline and not feeling quite alright for some time. Reading through online posts this seems somewhat the norm.

Yep. During my time off AAS regaining fertility earlier this year I figured I would throw it in since I wanted to use something other than GH and I needed the libido boost.

Started at 50mg, then 100, then 200 (because more is better, right?)...and it was great for a short time. But I lost all sensitivity in my dick. I literally couldn't cum to save my fucking life. The most frustrating shit ever for both my wife and I.

Dropped it completely, and then felt worse than before, and then eventually rebounded back and all was well.

I won't say I'll never use it again, but I'll never use it consistently and never more than 100mg.

I don't recall the username...but he was on ProM and ExcelMale talking about his journey getting his wife pregnant on 300mg test + HCG + HMG. Maybe it was @Sides? or something like that. He talked about withdrawal like symptoms from it which sounded bizarre to me at the time, but not after my experience with it.

 

[twreck555]

Yep. During my time off AAS regaining fertility earlier this year I figured I would throw it in since I wanted to use something other than GH and I needed the libido boost.

Started at 50mg, then 100, then 200 (because more is better, right?)...and it was great for a short time. But I lost all sensitivity in my dick. I literally couldn't cum to save my fucking life. The most frustrating shit ever for both my wife and I.

Dropped it completely, and then felt worse than before, and then eventually rebounded back and all was well.

I won't say I'll never use it again, but I'll never use it consistently and never more than 100mg.

I don't recall the username...but he was on ProM and ExcelMale talking about his journey getting his wife pregnant on 300mg test + HCG + HMG. Maybe it was @Sides? or something like that. He talked about withdrawal like symptoms from it which sounded bizarre to me at the time, but not after my experience with it.

Dude that sounds awful and definitely the opposite of what I'm looking for. How about Masteron? That's supposed to increase libido as well, i wonder if it would do so as a low dose add on "TRT +" . Seems pretty safe and well tolerated as well, but perhaps only safe in comparison with other AAS

 

[Trenbolonetax]

Dude that sounds awful and definitely the opposite of what I'm looking for. How about Masteron? That's supposed to increase libido as well, i wonder if it would do so as a low dose add on "TRT +" . Seems pretty safe and well tolerated as well, but perhaps only safe in comparison with other AAS

idk man. you might have great luck with a very low dose of proviron (25mg). but i'm not sure you'll have long lived sustainable luck with it.

i do like masteron but tbh, i would really just focus on nailing the TRT down with prop exclusively and getting that dialed in.

 

[twreck555]

idk man. you might have great luck with a very low dose of proviron (25mg). but i'm not sure you'll have long lived sustainable luck with it.

i do like masteron but tbh, i would really just focus on nailing the TRT down with prop exclusively and getting that dialed in.

Haha for sure, I have enough to focus on as it is. Definitely not time to introduce another non bioidentical variable. Even sticking to bioidentical HRT there are already enough in play which could all be manipulated in order to get a different result. IE:

Testosterone ester length and/or blend
Testosterone dose
Testosterone blend
+/- pregnenolone and/or dhea
+/- otc e2 modulator such as zinc, cdg etc
+/- AI (hesitant to use these)
+/- HGH (would like to make use of this eventually but not until dialed in on the TRT)
+/- HCG or HMG (which I'd be very hesitant to try as it sounds like a mess to dial in, but it does sound like for SOME people this is the missing ingredient that makes everything click)

The more I learn the more I realize that the libido issue is almost certainly related to my history of kratom abuse and current use of suboxone. I did not know this at the time both of these substances increase prolactin, which in turn downregulates GNRH.

I had thought that the suppression of GNRH could be solved by simply replacing testosterone but of course that didn't work.

I'm actually really curious to get full endocrine labs, just to see where things are at now with respect to of course T and E2, but also prolactin, progesterone, pregnenolone, dhea, DHT etc. But I think I'm going to wait until I have been on my propionate protocol for at least four weeks. Otherwise it's not going to give me actionable information and will just be a waste of money.

 

[twreck555]

While I agree you are steering your self more in the right direction, I'd still encourage you to reconsider your frequent dosing and substance changes, especially in regards of chasing some sense of, what I my surmise as "well being". When the observant is the subject being treated, ie. you are using your own subjective interpretation to determine pharmacological intervention which by it self is modulating your subjective experience.

The biggest fault that you're doing is that you are neglecting the fact that you are messing with androgens, which work at the level of gene transcription, ie. their effects take A LONG time to level out. So whilst you are waiting for primo and test levels to drop, you are already using new dosing schema, considering chasing the all too elusive "libido" with proviron (an androgen with strong CNS effects), and at the same time not realizing that the effects of androgens don't wear off simply when their respectable termination half life has run it's course. You've got a shitload off biology that needs to reach homeostasis once let's say primo clears out. From changes in energy expenditure, mitochondria, to neurotransmitter levels, receptor's expression and sensitivity, to electrolyte balance, fluid dynamics, etc. etc. All of this is ofc influencing your own subjective view and rationale. So by changing things so quickly, you've absolutely no "objective" ground to stand on.

You said that I'm perhaps underestimating your knowledge, ... You're intelligent enough to figure this out by yourself with due time, but consider listening to somebody who is maybe similar to you and has been doing this for almost a decade. I might not be as eloquent in my english syntax, as it's my third language, but I do have some idea about what I'm talking about. It's one thing to understand the pharmacodynamics of the drugs that you are using (although you aren't as educated on this front either) and it's a completely other thing self modulating your own treatment plan, especially if you have some issues in your brain reward circuitry.

And please consider that libido isn't at all controlled only by androgens. So don't use it as the main determinant to self modulate androgen use.

Your point is well taken and I do acknowledge the need to settle on a protocol and give it time to settle in.

But after my experience on cypionate, I am pretty sure that I'd rather invest my time in trying to dial in on a different ester.

The fluid retention that I experienced is already enough reason for me to want to try something else. If that alone improves my switch will be worthwhile. And the fluid retention started before any other variables were in play. I already had +1 pitting edema on 100 mg of cypionate and nothing else. Of course it then got worse when going up on the dose and adding HGH.

I understand your point that endlessly chasing subjective well being is a fools errand. I definitely plan to have a more systematic approach going forward. At the same time though, there is some validity in subjective measures, and I definitely think that it's valid to acknowledge that you don't like how you feel on a specific protocol and that you want to change something. I think I've just made those changes way too quickly.

So starting over, moving slower, being more conservative, being more systematic, getting objective data before each decision. That's my plan.

 

[Jin23]

Your point is well taken and I do acknowledge the need to settle on a protocol and give it time to settle in.

And you wont find out what this protocol is by changing things up so quickly. 4 weeks of prop isn't enough, for instance, especially as your body is still reaching homeostasis from the high test and primo. Which brings me to the point of "steroid withdrawal" which is playing an important role in how you are feeling now, ie. it's not just primo, it takes a couple of months after high androgen use for "systems" to re-sensitize to normal androgen levels. You also shut down your testicular steroidogenesis, which plays a role in well being/libido, and you're not using hcg, which is for a good portion of users an instant libido fix. Primo however is a libido killer for a lot of users, me included.

Your point about suboxone is most probably valid. And your previous drug abuse also plays a role. Either way, you might have been better off with a low dose of enclomiphene, which could have potentially brought up your natural T to 800+ and potentially something to increase dopamine neurotransmission, whilst keeping prolactin low. Which you can still try if further aas use and being unnaturally jacked really isn't a priority for you. To give you a personal anecdote, I'm currently sitting at 800 ngdl TT and 70 SHBG, libido is fine, it was also fine at 650 ngdl (which is my normal TT if I don't use a serm for some months) and 70 shbg. 3 mg's of enclomiphene e3d put's me above to 900 ngdl and my libido get's too high. Same goes for 250 IU hcg eod on a TRT dose of 50 mg/week.

 

[twreck555]

And you wont find out what this protocol is by changing things up so quickly. 4 weeks of prop isn't enough, for instance, especially as your body is still reaching homeostasis from the high test and primo. Which brings me to the point of "steroid withdrawal" which is playing an important role in how you are feeling now, ie. it's not just primo, it takes a couple of months after high androgen use for "systems" to re-sensitize to normal androgen levels. You also shut down your testicular steroidogenesis, which plays a role in well being/libido, and you're not using hcg, which is for a good portion of users an instant libido fix. Primo however is a libido killer for a lot of users, me included.

Your point about suboxone is most probably valid. And your previous drug abuse also plays a role. Either way, you might have been better off with a low dose of enclomiphene, which could have potentially brought up your natural T to 800+ and potentially something to increase dopamine neurotransmission, whilst keeping prolactin low. Which you can still try if further aas use and being unnaturally jacked really isn't a priority for you. To give you a personal anecdote, I'm currently sitting at 800 ngdl TT and 70 SHBG, libido is fine, it was also fine at 650 ngdl (which is my normal TT if I don't use a serm for some months) and 70 shbg. 3 mg's of enclomiphene e3d put's me above to 900 ngdl and my libido get's too high. Same goes for 250 IU hcg eod on a TRT dose of 50 mg/week.

Thanks man, your experience is great food for thought. I'd never really considered enclomiphene, and I will learn more about it. I admit a big lack of knowledge there. It's a GNRH agonist if I recall correctly?

In my case that might actually be a better approach, since I think the mechanism for my initial pathology was:

Increased prolactin causing secondary hypogonadism combined with...
Greatly increased SHBG (>100) causing profound suppression in free T and thus, greatly suppressed conversion to DHT and E2

So enclomiphene might be a valid option. I just always heard that it makes people feel like shit. I'm not sure why that would be, since on paper it sounds fine.

I do wonder if HCG could help me, increasing intratesticular testosterone as well as the other benefits of upregulating the conversion of the upstream neurosteroids. It's something I would like to explore it just sounds like it can be tricky to dial in. For now it's something that is tabled for the future until I get my levels at least dialed on the prop.

The four week number was more or less derived from the whole five half life rule. After four weeks on the prop it will have been five weeks since the last cypionate, nine weeks since the last primo. Essentially five half lives since the last dose of cypionate, way more than five half lives since the primo, and way more than five half lives of the prop. So the levels at least, of T and E2, should theoretically be stable by then, hence labs. By the time I get the labs back it will have been probably more like seven weeks since my last dose of cypionate, eleven weeks since the last dose of primo. I am comfortable with allowing for another decision at that point, with the subjective and biometric data that I will have collected by that point, along with the labs at the four week mark. And the decision may well be to just stay at the same level. At any rate, I do not feel the need to be more conservative than that with respect to decision making.

Edit to add: keep in mind the libido issue predates any testosterone. It's not so much that the testosterone caused it, more like it failed to provide a lasting fix.

And I'm not just talking about slightly less libido than a teenager. I'm talking about months going by without so much as a single sexual impulse. I'm talking about a very profound asexuality, unlike anything I've ever experienced before. It's highly disturbing and apparently it's also extremely unhealthy for the reproductive system to be in such a state for any length of time. I don’t just mean the gonads, I mean the actual vascular structures and erectile tissue involved. They aren't meant to go into stasis like that. So I do have a sense of urgency to resolve or at least improve this issue.

 

[Jin23]

Increased prolactin causing secondary hypogonadism combined with...
Greatly increased SHBG (>100) causing profound suppression in free T and thus, greatly suppressed conversion to DHT and E2

You were not secondary hypogonadal, your LH and TT were eugonadal. You "just" had high shbg.

The lack of libido is most probably, first and foremost, due to low free androgens, caused by high shbg.

Shbg is influenced by a myriad of factors, from stress (overtraining), a low caloric diet, a highly sensitive liver, and possibly opioids (I've yet to research this). Opioids can and do lower GNRH which lowers LH and subsequently TT. But I can't say I've researched this topic as it's not of particular interest to me.

Thanks man, your experience is great food for thought. I'd never really considered enclomiphene, and I will learn more about it. I admit a big lack of knowledge there. It's a GNRH agonist if I recall correctly?

You're welcome. Enclomiphene is a SERM not a gnrh agonist. It's the best serm for such a task as it's "estrogenic" sides are the least prominent. You were probably reading about clomid or possibly tamox, ... You didn't need a gnrh agonist, a SERM would probably do the job. I proposed raising TT to high normal in order to fight the high SHBG.

It really wouldn't be a bad idea to quit suboxone as soon as possible ...

 

[twreck555]

You were not secondary hypogonadal, your LH and TT were eugonadal. You "just" had high shbg.

The lack of libido is most probably, first and foremost, due to low free androgens, caused by high shbg.

Shbg is influenced by a myriad of factors, from stress (overtraining), a low caloric diet, a highly sensitive liver, and possibly opioids (I've yet to research this). Opioids can and do lower GNRH which lowers LH and subsequently TT. But I can't say I've researched this topic as it's not of particular interest to me.



You're welcome. Enclomiphene is a SERM not a gnrh agonist. It's the best serm for such a task as it's "estrogenic" sides are the least prominent. You were probably reading about clomid or possibly tamox, ... You didn't need a gnrh agonist, a SERM would probably do the job. I proposed raising TT to high normal in order to fight the high SHBG.

It really wouldn't be a bad idea to quit suboxone as soon as possible ...

Oh you're right I was confusing clomiphene with enclomiphene. Same mechanism though I was mistaken about that too, namely, upregulating the hpta by blocking the negative feedback of estrogen on the release of GNRH.

Yes I absolutely agree with you and I am in the process of tapering off of the suboxone. As mentioned previously though, this is a slow process and I defer to my practitioner in this matter (for once.) His recommendations are tiny steps down appropriately once per month. At this rate I'll probably take another year to get off completely. I've already learned the lesson of what happens when attempting to be too aggressive on this one.

 

[twreck555]

Oh shit i just learned the difference between clomid and enclomiphene, namely that clomid contains both enclomiphene and zuclomiphene. Only the enclomiphene stimulates gnrh release.

Ok now I'm interested in enclomiphene, and will certainly utilize this if I decide to transition back to 'natty'

 

[mvl]

Kratom and Suboxone are 1000% your problem here bud. They both fuck up prolactin through dopamine release and direct D2 agonism.

Mitragynine pseudoindoxyl can cook your δ-opioid receptors for MONTHS.

 

[twreck555]

Kratom and Suboxone are 1000% your problem here bud. They both fuck up prolactin through dopamine release and direct D2 agonism.

Mitragynine pseudoindoxyl can cook your δ-opioid receptors for MONTHS.

Yeah it's been over a year since I used kratom, however... i abused an absurd amount of it for a long time. Wouldn't surprise me if I caused permanent damage.

Suboxone definitely stimulates prolactin release as well. This is well documented.

I've never pulled prolactin on bloodwork but I will next time I get labs. If it's elevated, which would not surprise me, what would you recommend?

Like previously stated, I'm tapering off suboxone but is there anything in the meantime to correct prolactin?

I've heard p5p and schisandra can be helpful as far as otc supplements, but I'm unsure how effective that would be in this case since I'm clearly symptomatic.

Would this be a case that might warrant the use of a more heavy duty compound like cabergoline?

Alternatively apparently there are some other compounds that upregulate dopamine, namely bromantane and 9-me-bc, but there isn't really safety data in humans and, especially for the 9-me-bc, I've heard of some safety concerns related to neurotoxicity. Might be better to just stick with things that are well understood, even if not completely safe.

Clearly getting off suboxone needs to be priority #1, just looking into what else I can do to help the process.

 

[twreck555]

Prop came in.

Carefully considered my new protocol and did a bit more research. I know I'll get flack for this but here were my thoughts, and how I wound up on the decision that I ultimately made.

Initial thought was to start at 8 mg test prop daily to try to mimic endogenous production as closely as possible. Finally thought to plot this in steroidplotter, which did seem to be pretty accurate when I plotted my cypionate protocol compared to what I saw on bloodwork. Here's 8 mg daily:



So yeah, levels in the low 400s? No thanks, I'd be worse off then my own endogenous state.

Let's try again at 10 mg/d



Ok so at 10 mg/d we're approximately back to my natural levels. So once again, this seems overly conservative to me as I'd like to actually get something out of this process, not just return to the same place I was at before starting.

Let's see what 12 mg/d looks like:



Ok, 630. So slightly above endogenous levels. We're getting close but again I'd like to aim just slightly higher and try to get some symptom resolution. Let's see what 15 mg/d looks like.



Ok now we're talking. 780 seems like a good target. High normal, but definitely not supraphysiologic. Now what i don't like about this protocol is that the peaks and troughs are tiny with this daily dosing, even with propionate. The whole reason why I'm switching to propionate is to feel what it will be like to have higher peaks and deeper troughs, to try to drive more conversion especially to DHT. But the overall level seems right. So let's see what happens switching to 30 mg EOD:



There we go! If steroidplotter is correct, 30 mg EOD should give me a peak around 1050 ng/dl and troughs of 580 ng/dl. So that's what I've settled on. I'm going to run this for five weeks and then pull bloods and we'll see where we're at.

In the meantime, I am going to implement some very mild measurements for estrogen control, namely zinc picolinate 25 mg BID and calcium D glucarate 500 mg BID. Also backfilling upstream hormones with DHEA 25 mg daily and pregnenolone 10 mg BID.

At the five week mark will check everything on bloods including cbc, cmp, lipids, iron panel, t total and free, shbg, e2 sensitive, prolactin, progesterone, dhea, pregnenolone. On the fence about dht (expensive), thyroid panel (mines always fine) and psa (again it's always been fine), igf-1 (had planned to check but i no longer take hgh so might be pointless to check.) At some point will check fsh and lh to see if i get any axis activity on the shorter ester. Apparently some do, but I'm unsure if this is worth checking as it's not going to inform any decisions.

In the meantime I'll be tracking biometrics (weight, bp, fsbg, rhr, hrv) and subjective measures to track how i respond. I'll be doing my best to keep the diet as clean as possible while eating in a slight deficit, train 3-4 times per week, and hit my step goal of 10k per day. I'm going to try to add a bit of easy jogging and see if my knee can tolerate it.

At the seven week mark I'll get my labs results and decide what move to make next. My plan is to change a single variable at a time and carefully track my response to each change.

I'd like to find a place where my sexual function is fully restored, I don't hold any extra fluid, and I have consistent high quality sleep and recovery. A slight boost to anabolism would be a nice bonus, but it's the lowest priority honestly, more of a bonus if I do get it.

A week out from the last cyp now and my fluid retention is markedly improved- down to just a trace from +2 pitting edema. Sexual function and sleep are still tanked. I seem to be functioning better day to day, brain fog has improved but still not quite back to normal.

Dosed the first 30 mg dose of propionate this morning. Here we go!

Edit to add: I almost forgot! New rack comes today! Home gym remodel progressing apace. Picking up more stall mats tomorrow and will finally have black rubber wall to wall. New rack adds capability for lat pull, low row, legit cable trolleys, leg press, leg extension, hamstring curl, hack squat, belt squat (the ghetto kind anyway)... enough room for two people to squat simultaneously. so fucking psyched. Unfortunately having some minor oral surgery tomorrow so that will be a little bit of a challenge. Liquid food for a few days, thankfully have a nice blender lol.

 

[readalot]

Prop came in.

Carefully considered my new protocol and did a bit more research. I know I'll get flack for this but here were my thoughts, and how I wound up on the decision that I ultimately made.

Initial thought was to start at 8 mg test prop daily to try to mimic endogenous production as closely as possible. Finally thought to plot this in steroidplotter, which did seem to be pretty accurate when I plotted my cypionate protocol compared to what I saw on bloodwork. Here's 8 mg daily:

View attachment 306708

So yeah, levels in the low 400s? No thanks, I'd be worse off then my own endogenous state.

Let's try again at 10 mg/d

View attachment 306709

Ok so at 10 mg/d we're approximately back to my natural levels. So once again, this seems overly conservative to me as I'd like to actually get something out of this process, not just return to the same place I was at before starting.

Let's see what 12 mg/d looks like:

View attachment 306710

Ok, 630. So slightly above endogenous levels. We're getting close but again I'd like to aim just slightly higher and try to get some symptom resolution. Let's see what 15 mg/d looks like.

View attachment 306711

Ok now we're talking. 780 seems like a good target. High normal, but definitely not supraphysiologic. Now what i don't like about this protocol is that the peaks and troughs are tiny with this daily dosing, even with propionate. The whole reason why I'm switching to propionate is to feel what it will be like to have higher peaks and deeper troughs, to try to drive more conversion especially to DHT. But the overall level seems right. So let's see what happens switching to 30 mg EOD:

View attachment 306712

There we go! If steroidplotter is correct, 30 mg EOD should give me a peak around 1050 ng/dl and troughs of 580 ng/dl. So that's what I've settled on. I'm going to run this for five weeks and then pull bloods and we'll see where we're at.

In the meantime, I am going to implement some very mild measurements for estrogen control, namely zinc picolinate 25 mg BID and calcium D glucarate 500 mg BID. Also backfilling upstream hormones with DHEA 25 mg daily and pregnenolone 10 mg BID.

At the five week mark will check everything on bloods including cbc, cmp, lipids, iron panel, t total and free, shbg, e2 sensitive, prolactin, progesterone, dhea, pregnenolone. On the fence about dht (expensive), thyroid panel (mines always fine) and psa (again it's always been fine), igf-1 (had planned to check but i no longer take hgh so might be pointless to check.) At some point will check fsh and lh to see if i get any axis activity on the shorter ester. Apparently some do, but I'm unsure if this is worth checking as it's not going to inform any decisions.

In the meantime I'll be tracking biometrics (weight, bp, fsbg, rhr, hrv) and subjective measures to track how i respond. I'll be doing my best to keep the diet as clean as possible while eating in a slight deficit, train 3-4 times per week, and hit my step goal of 10k per day. I'm going to try to add a bit of easy jogging and see if my knee can tolerate it.

At the seven week mark I'll get my labs results and decide what move to make next. My plan is to change a single variable at a time and carefully track my response to each change.

I'd like to find a place where my sexual function is fully restored, I don't hold any extra fluid, and I have consistent high quality sleep and recovery. A slight boost to anabolism would be a nice bonus, but it's the lowest priority honestly, more of a bonus if I do get it.

A week out from the last cyp now and my fluid retention is markedly improved- down to just a trace from +2 pitting edema. Sexual function and sleep are still tanked. I seem to be functioning better day to day, brain fog has improved but still not quite back to normal.

Dosed the first 30 mg dose of propionate this morning. Here we go!

Edit to add: I almost forgot! New rack comes today! Home gym remodel progressing apace. Picking up more stall mats tomorrow and will finally have black rubber wall to wall. New rack adds capability for lat pull, low row, legit cable trolleys, leg press, leg extension, hamstring curl, hack squat, belt squat (the ghetto kind anyway)... enough room for two people to squat simultaneously. so fucking psyched. Unfortunately having some minor oral surgery tomorrow so that will be a little bit of a challenge. Liquid food for a few days, thankfully have a nice blender lol.

Very nice effort. Just be careful with steroid plotter. Latest version got screwed up.

Post in thread 'Interesting results on daily vs E3.5 day testosterone injections'

Sep 25, 2024

SteroidPlotter lists

This may also be of interest:

Testosterone propionate supposedly the best ester?

Im slow what's a pk profile ? My bad...pharmacokinetic profile. What steroid plotter tries to provide.

www.excelmale.com

Caution with test propionate. Also way off with the latest changes made to the tool. In trying to improve the tool, they ruined it.

• readalot

• 

TLDR: the PK parameters in steroid plotter for Test P are f'ed and the uncertainty on the calculated serum levels are quite high.

Thread 'Tool to Assess your TT dose response --Percentile Curves'

Oct 5, 2023

Continuing the dose response thread over here. This would be a great place to crowdsource data.

Tool to Assess your TT Dose Response -- Percentile Curves

Summary: Tools to estimate your individual dose response for injectable testosterone ester in comparison to a normal distribution (95 percentile confidence estimate) of adult males (Ref). Plot below shows a summary of data from (1) clinical trials gathered from the literature + (2)...

forums.t-nation.com

readalot (aka tareload) introduction

Hello Fellow Body Dysmorphia [sic] sufferers. Looks like I have made to to the audition at Meso (after ExcelMale and I have basically parted ways and TNation as well haha). Spent years on TNation and ExcelMale under the handle Readalot and then Tareload (long and silly story). If you are really...

thinksteroids.com

I will post up the requirements for sharing user data. A chart with FT vs dose would be better but unfortunately that's not how the history of analytical chemistry with serum testosterone shook out.

Previously I compared published pharmacokinetic studies against user data taken via...

• readalot
• #modeling harm reduction pharmacokinetics testosterone
• Replies: 53
• Forum: Steroid Forum

• 
• 

I'd just use Test Cyp twice weekly and target upper normal if you are dead set on the TRT thing. But your experiment will bring you experience. I was hoping you'd get more feedback on the Test Prop. Guys have spent years trying to dial in various protocols.

Best wishes!