Simplicity, consistency, accountability

[twreck555]

I feel attacked.

But on a serious note...this is real shit, @twreck555. These are some really good questions to ponder.

If you choose not to stay clear of AAS, I would absolutely suggest steering clear of 19nors - those really screw with my brain reward system in any dose, and tren definitely makes me much more impulsive and less risk averse.

I'm pretty sure every single one of my "drug vacations," with the exception of one in the last several years, was while on tren.

I'm a perfect example of someone with a history of drug use / abuse / addiction issues starting back on AAS with the intent of using minimal effective doses to going full blown blast in less than 2 months. It's very clearly charted in my log.

As my doses have increased, I've started sleeping worse, enjoying life less, become slightly more irritable, and have noticed more "drug seeking" behavior / a desire to push doses further even though it's not serving me...sounds eerily similar to typical drug addiction, yea?

Be careful @twreck555; don't fall into the same but different trap.

Also would like to share my appreciation for @Jin23 levelheaded comments and discussion around this topic...it's certainly given me an opportunity to be introspective and reflect on my journey.

Thanks for sharing this.

I get the impression from your log that you and I both share an intellectual curiosity about compounds, and the desire learn about them and then to try them to find out firsthand what they do.

I've had this since I was a neurobiology undergrad at Cal in the late 90's, when you could still purchase novel psychedelic phenylethylamines and tryptamines on the internet. I eventually lost interest in these when I began to realize that the very best ones were the ones that were already well known. IE, lsd, psilocybin, and MDMA. None of the RC drugs ever measured up, and I feel like the same thing is true with PEDs. IE, AAS>peptides >sarms etc.

But that curiosity is still there and that can be distracting. Maybe we'll find some new shit that's just amazing and safe but I have my doubts.

I especially appreciate your sharing your experience because I look up to your physical achievements but then I have to ask myself, would I trade my emotional well being to have your level of muscularity? I think that would actually be a poor trade. And I have no illusions about your physique being attainable naturally, clearly that is not even remotely possible.

 

[twreck555]

I reduced my to 150 a week from 175 because @ 175 my levels were 1658 ng/dl. Mind you this is for my cruse phase. I started TRT at 50 then waited 5 years to start blasting and cruising.

If you do decide you:
Do not have an addictive personality
Do not have underlying mental issues
Do want to see what you can achieve at your age with PEDs
Do not mind the trade offs of blasting and cruising.

I suggest you stick with drugs that are made for and have been studied in humans. Test, Deca, Primo, Anavar, etc. The so called "safer model" of AAS use. This thread has given you a LOT of information to consider, but, your a grown ass man that knows you better than strangers on the internet. Document everything you do, get blood work at least every 3 months (I do once a month because data is king) and if its not fun or serving your goals don't do it. Oh, Tren isn't for humans but that shit is kick ass LOL.

Thanks man, appreciate this. Doubt I'd ever even consider tren though.

 

[twreck555]

Top of the reference range isn't some magical number where you'll be OK. Especially if that means 1200 ngdl, which is app 2x the normal TT level.

If you want stability, or maybe a better term would be "well being", shoot for the upper 3/4 free T range and stay there. Going to the upper range of what maybe some teenager genetic phenoms have, ie. 1000+ ng/dl, is again problematic and can potentially lead to burn out and all the other things we discussed before. And keep in mind, naturally very high TT levels are usually followed by a high SHBG.

Anyway, you got access to labs, so adjust your dosages, pull bloods and re-evaluate.

The doc's 200 mg's TRT wasn't TRT and your decision to stay at 100 was definitely the right call.

I still think that taking hormones in to your own hands as somebody who has issues with drug seeking behavior is problematic and should be avoided (you can still take a low dose enclomiphene and see your levels rise to 800 + ...), however you do you, I've said my peace.

@readalot can help you on calculating or measuring free T numbers.

Thanks man, I appreciate all the feedback and advice. I knew I needed to adjust my course so this has all been incredibly helpful.

One thing I'm not clear on is this:

Most of the trt clinics want you to obtain a 'trough' level because they want you injecting twice per week, but I'm doing daily injections to have more stable levels and less e2/dht conversion. So clearly a trough level doesn't exist for someone doing daily injections. Is there a way to account for the difference?

 

[readalot]

Is there a way to account for the difference?

Table: conversion between peak/trough/mean for first order absorption/elimination PK model assuming 4.5 day elimination half life and 8 hr absorption half life

 

[Trenbolonetax]

Thanks man, appreciate this. Doubt I'd ever even consider tren though.

This is what they all say lol. I remember when I said “just one cycle”

 

[readalot]

This is what they all say lol. I remember when I said “just one cycle”

Between Dante and Shelley, an AAS (ab)user is fully covered.

Dante's Inferno Full Text - Canto 3 - Owl Eyes

Read Full Text and Annotations on Dante's Inferno Canto 3 at Owl Eyes

www.owleyes.org

"THROUGH me you pass into the city of woe:
Through me you pass into eternal pain:
Through me among the people lost for aye.
Justice the founder of my fabric mov'd:
To rear me was the task of power divine,
Supremest wisdom, and primeval love.
Before me things create were none, save things
Eternal, and eternal I endure.
"All hope abandon ye who enter here."

 

[Trenbolonetax]

Thanks for sharing this.

I get the impression from your log that you and I both share an intellectual curiosity about compounds, and the desire learn about them and then to try them to find out firsthand what they do.

I've had this since I was a neurobiology undergrad at Cal in the late 90's, when you could still purchase novel psychedelic phenylethylamines and tryptamines on the internet. I eventually lost interest in these when I began to realize that the very best ones were the ones that were already well known. IE, lsd, psilocybin, and MDMA. None of the RC drugs ever measured up, and I feel like the same thing is true with PEDs. IE, AAS>peptides >sarms etc.

But that curiosity is still there and that can be distracting. Maybe we'll find some new shit that's just amazing and safe but I have my doubts.

I especially appreciate your sharing your experience because I look up to your physical achievements but then I have to ask myself, would I trade my emotional well being to have your level of muscularity? I think that would actually be a poor trade. And I have no illusions about your physique being attainable naturally, clearly that is not even remotely possible.

Yes, I’m very intellectually curious for better and worse! That’s for sure.

I mean being my size is overrated af, for sure. Im genetically blessed to pack on muscle easily and maintain on reasonable doses very well which is nice because I haven’t really had to trade much sanity at all to achieve this…I’ve always been fucked up haha.

There are certain compounds that I think make sense to push higher than others when trying to maximize muscle while limiting negative mental and emotional side effects. But I digress, no sane person would recommend to another to become this size lol

 

[twreck555]

Thanks @readalot

So am I correct in assuming the best way to go about this would be to titrate daily dose until I consistently land in the top 3/4 of the range, so free t direct somewhere around 15-20 pg/mL right? And it shouldn't make any difference if I skip that days shot or not right?

 

[Jin23]

Most of the trt clinics want you to obtain a 'trough' level

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. A through level just means when T levels are at their lowest ...

Regarding pinning schedule on Tc, ed is really unnecessary. 2x/week is just fine, or if you wanna go "crazy" try eod. But all the extra pinning gets boring reall fast believe me. I hope you're at least doing subq ...

And e2 levels aren't really that much of a concern on normal TRT dosages.

Anyway, @readalot has you covered. He likes graphs and maths : D

 

[readalot]

free t direct somewhere around 15-20 pg/mL

Not quite.

Free T direct is quite a mess. 15-20 ng/dl by equilibrium dialysis or calculated via Vermeulen would be a very generous target. Lots of info on that if you want.

 

[readalot]

Post in thread 'Free test measurement units/format?'

Dec 23, 2023

See parts I and II starting here for the blow by blow...

Calculate Free Testosterone with TruT by FPT

The idea of SHBG as a sponge that sucks up large amounts of testosterone and leaves your free T low doesn't seem to be how it really works. The way I understand it, high SHBG makes your meager production (revealed by the free T) look like it's normal or even high when it isn't. The SHBG is...

www.excelmale.com

You had the direct imminoassay which is typically off by a factor of 7 from equilibrium dialysis or calculated FT via Vermeulen.

Also here:

Public Service Announcement: "Piss Poor" Direct RIA fT measurement (HELP is on the way)

Hey Folks, thought I would update the graph for free T reference ranges based on LC-MS/MS+ED and compare with Labcorp's direct RIA fT reference range. What the hell do you do with with your direct fT measurement if you want to compare with equibrium dialysis reference ranges? Take the Labcorp...

www.excelmale.com

• readalot

• 

Some of my sinister posts as an infamous BANNED former member. So notorious. Be careful reading a devil's handiwork.

 

[twreck555]

Post in thread 'Free test measurement units/format?'

Dec 23, 2023

See parts I and II starting here for the blow by blow...

Calculate Free Testosterone with TruT by FPT

The idea of SHBG as a sponge that sucks up large amounts of testosterone and leaves your free T low doesn't seem to be how it really works. The way I understand it, high SHBG makes your meager production (revealed by the free T) look like it's normal or even high when it isn't. The SHBG is...

www.excelmale.com

You had the direct imminoassay which is typically off by a factor of 7 from equilibrium dialysis or calculated FT via Vermeulen.

Also here:

Public Service Announcement: "Piss Poor" Direct RIA fT measurement (HELP is on the way)

Hey Folks, thought I would update the graph for free T reference ranges based on LC-MS/MS+ED and compare with Labcorp's direct RIA fT reference range. What the hell do you do with with your direct fT measurement if you want to compare with equibrium dialysis reference ranges? Take the Labcorp...

www.excelmale.com

• readalot

• 

Some of my sinister posts as an infamous BANNED former member. So notorious. Be careful reading a devil's handiwork.

Ok awesome will read up, might have to order a different lab because I don't think the one I got last time correlates

 

[twreck555]

Post in thread 'Free test measurement units/format?'

Dec 23, 2023

See parts I and II starting here for the blow by blow...

Calculate Free Testosterone with TruT by FPT

The idea of SHBG as a sponge that sucks up large amounts of testosterone and leaves your free T low doesn't seem to be how it really works. The way I understand it, high SHBG makes your meager production (revealed by the free T) look like it's normal or even high when it isn't. The SHBG is...

www.excelmale.com

You had the direct imminoassay which is typically off by a factor of 7 from equilibrium dialysis or calculated FT via Vermeulen.

Also here:

Public Service Announcement: "Piss Poor" Direct RIA fT measurement (HELP is on the way)

Hey Folks, thought I would update the graph for free T reference ranges based on LC-MS/MS+ED and compare with Labcorp's direct RIA fT reference range. What the hell do you do with with your direct fT measurement if you want to compare with equibrium dialysis reference ranges? Take the Labcorp...

www.excelmale.com

• readalot

• 

Some of my sinister posts as an infamous BANNED former member. So notorious. Be careful reading a devil's handiwork.

My takeaway was that for a rough and inexpensive estimate that you are in the right ballpark, multiply the labcorp free t direct value by 0.7 and you should wind up in the 11.5-15.5 range to be in the top quartile of the range. (Assuming that quest range is what you go by? The labcorp ED range is way higher, 21-28 for the top quartile if i read that correctly?) Or spring for the more expensive ED test. Which for me at the moment I'm way above range either way I'm sure. But interestingly in the examples linked, so was the patient in question, though not quite so high as I am currently. I've already paid for my next labs which include the free t direct and I'm guessing after two weeks on this lower dose I'll still be high and need to titrate down again so I might just leave it alone and save the more expensive test for if or when fine tuning makes more sense.

 

[twreck555]

Yes, I’m very intellectually curious for better and worse! That’s for sure.

I mean being my size is overrated af, for sure. Im genetically blessed to pack on muscle easily and maintain on reasonable doses very well which is nice because I haven’t really had to trade much sanity at all to achieve this…I’ve always been fucked up haha.

There are certain compounds that I think make sense to push higher than others when trying to maximize muscle while limiting negative mental and emotional side effects. But I digress, no sane person would recommend to another to become this size lol

Yeah this makes sense brother. One thing I'm learning through this whole process is that everything comes at a price. It's amazing seeing the weight on the bar going up and up but then again there are days when it just feels like someone has turned up the gravity.

 

[twreck555]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. A through level just means when T levels are at their lowest ...

Regarding pinning schedule on Tc, ed is really unnecessary. 2x/week is just fine, or if you wanna go "crazy" try eod. But all the extra pinning gets boring reall fast believe me. I hope you're at least doing subq ...

And e2 levels aren't really that much of a concern on normal TRT dosages.

Anyway, @readalot has you covered. He likes graphs and maths : D

Have tried several times to switch to subq, my skin just doesn't like it. Not for oil. Water based things are fine

 

[Jin23]

Have tried several times to switch to subq, my skin just doesn't like it. Not for oil. Water based things are fine

Injecting IM ed ... You're going to accumulate a lot of scar tissue.

 

[twreck555]

Injecting IM ed ... You're going to accumulate a lot of scar tissue.

Yeah I've noticed in certain spots already, quads mostly. Any advice on the skin irritation? Just deal with it? I get that in the long run I have more to lose by pinning the muscle

 

[twreck555]

You know it's strange I only came on this forum to learn how to obtain exotic compounds from China and now yall got me more psyched to tune my trt to highish normal and be happy being a normal guy. Well, it's certainly going to be a cheaper path and honestly, focusing on what's truly important will probably get me a lot farther in the long run. As they say, don't major in the minors.

I'll admit I was a bit consumed by the fantasy world of enhanced YouTube fitness personalities pushing bullshit supplements which, honestly, is the oldest trick in the book and I know better than that. I am ashamed.

Edit to add: at least Limitless Life has an excellent return policy and just let me return two very expensive orders of exotic compounds which I no longer have any interest in utilizing

 

[Trenbolonetax]

You know it's strange I only came on this forum to learn how to obtain exotic compounds from China and now yall got me more psyched to tune my trt to highish normal and be happy being a normal guy. Well, it's certainly going to be a cheaper path and honestly, focusing on what's truly important will probably get me a lot farther in the long run. As they say, don't major in the minors.

I'll admit I was a bit consumed by the fantasy world of enhanced YouTube fitness personalities pushing bullshit supplements which, honestly, is the oldest trick in the book and I know better than that. I am ashamed.

Edit to add: at least Limitless Life has an excellent return policy and just let me return two very expensive orders of exotic compounds which I no longer have any interest in utilizing

What exotic compounds are you returning? You piqued my interest....

 

[twreck555]

What exotic compounds are you returning? You piqued my interest....

Haha 5 amino 1 mq, and 9 me bc.

Im near 100% sure my dopamine circuitry is damaged, but, after coming to my senses, 9 me bc didn't sound like something that I actually wanted to put into my brain. It may repair dopamine circuits? Or be neurotoxic? Or both? I think, no thanks.

And for the price of the 5 amino I think I'd rather just get another kit of reta.

Though just today realized I've been doing that wrong too with my daily microdosing, going to move to weekly after reading the reta thread. Any advice switching schedules? .6 daily would be 4 weekly so I'd figure just skip a few days and start bolusing 4 mgs maybe Saturdays?