I never understood why people rag on soy so much. The whole "soy-boy" thing is ridiculous. Soy is delicious and nutritious (just get the organic shit otherwise you are ingesting INSANE levels of pesticides, which are even bigger endocrine disruptors than the phytoestrogens in soy are.
First of all, phytoestrogens are WAY more complex than they seem. So many bros seems to think that eating soy will increase your estrogen or lower your testosterone or something. This is SO oversimplified it isn't even funny. Phytoestrogens often have both estrogenic and antiestrogenic effects in the box. They can also alter to ratio of estrogens in tour body, so your body starts producing more or less estradiol and more or less estrone, or whatever.
Within each class there are many different actual chemicals:
- The first primary class of phytoestrogens is isoflavones. Common isoflavones include formononetin, daidzein, biochanin A, genistein, O-desmethylangolensin, and equol. Isoflavones primarily come from legumes, with the top contributor there being soy. The reason for this is because soy flour, soy protein isolates, and other soy-related products are added to all the bullshit junk food that 99% of Americans consume (and the world, maybe?). They're added to processed meats, meat substitutes (yuck those are digsusting), breads, protein bars, cereals, granolas. In some countries like Mexico they have even started advertising "soybeal oil" as a cooking oil to use in lieu of Olive Oil or Canola Oil. (Tangent: I use Olive oil for literally EVERYTHING, and only occasionally use coconut oil for curries or stir fries, but there is zero reason in my book to use any other oil--other than the price.)
- The other primary class of phytoestrogens is lignans, the primary ones being matairesinol and secoisolariciresinol, which are transformed by intestinal bacteria into the estrogenic compounds enterolactone and enterodiol, respectively. Lignans are found in flax seeds at CRAZY high levels, along with whole wheat flour, tea, some fruits, and some ceral grains.
- Coumestans: chemicals similar to coumarin and aren't relevant to beer.
- Technically, resveratrol and trans-resveratrol are also both considered phytoestrogens!
Anyway, flax has WAY higher phytoestrogen content than soy, which you can see below. However, this is in the form of lignans vs isoflavones
View attachment 148510
There are tons of factors at play regarding these things. Every person is going to both absorb and metabolize phytoestrogens differently. Our gut bacteria plays a HUGE role in metabolizing the phytoestrogens found in these plants into their respective active metabolites. As we know, the human gut microbiome is unfathomably complex AND varies WILDLY from person to person (that is an understatement).
Anyway, people talk about flax seeds, soybeans, tofu, soy products, etc. But few people talk about beer, which most of the guys calling other guys "soy boys" have probably already had a few of! It is true that beer has very low quantities of phytoestrogens, however, they happen to be INCREDIBLY POTENT. The phytoestrogens in beer comes from the hops. So hoppier beers like IPAs and whatnot have higher levels of the phytoestrogen, which is called 8-prenylnaringenin (8-PN). 8-PN is considered to be the most potent phytoestrogen ever discovered! Ok, so very low levels but very potent, seems not TOO bad, right?
Well, there is another chemical in beer called isoxanthohumol, of which 90% of it gets biotransformed into 8-PN. This biotransformation effectively drastically increases the estrogenic activity of beer, and it's been shown that it could result in a 10-fold increase in exposure. (source) 8-PN has been shown to be SO POTENT that it can treat symptoms of menopause!
Now there, are also some beneficial effects too, such as some reduction in inflammation, apparent protection against some types of cancer, and more. These aren't simply estrogenic agonists/modulators, they do all sorts of things. However, 8-PN is so potent that it is actually categorized as a SERM! It predominantly binds to ERα, which is mainly expressed in endometrium and ovarian stroma (not relevant to males, obviously), bones, and the mammary gland (which is what gets enlarged in cases of the dreaded gyno). Tamoxifen and raloxifene also selectively bind to ERα, but they are antagonists of breast tissue, whereas 8-PN in beer is an agonist.
This is interesting, as the majority of phytoestrogens preferentially bind to ERβ, which is prevalent in adipose tissue, endothelial cells, brain, kidneys, and the prostate. I don't know much about this mechanism of action or the effects here.
Anecdotally, all the guys I know that have been serious beer drinkers throughout their lives seem to have some level of gyno. I don't think I know anybody who drinks a beer or two every day, or goes FUCKING HAM every weekend, downing 12 beers in a day or whatever (I don't know, I don't drink) that doesn't seem to have some level of gyno developing. I hypothesize that, since 60 to 70% of teen boys experience gyno anyway, perhaps the 8-PN exposure from overly abundant beer drinking just makes it worse and wouldn't actually cause it? Plus most abundant beer drinkers are fat anyway, so that doesn't help at all. But I digress...
Personally, I don't drink any beer anymore. Honestly I don't really like it to begin with. I don't like spending my hard-earned calories on consuming what I like to call "liquid bread"--especially when chances are I have some fucking bombastic homemade sourdough sitting around anyway that I would MUCH rather eat. If I want an alcohol-like buzz, I will usually take a tablespoon or two of micronized kava.
So to wrap it up, I ask thee: why is beer considered such a "manly drink" (at least in America)? When itWhy is it that American guys seem to look at you weird when they ask "Hey there bud you wanta beer?" and you say "Nah I'm good I'll have a glass of wine, thanks though." I mean personally I prefer water, but I like wine better if I really have to drink something lol. Anyway. Just some food (or drink) for thought for everyone. I remembered reading about this a few years back and wanted to post about it...been chipping away over the last few days. Hopefully it is interesting for everyone!
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
www.cdc.gov
First of all, phytoestrogens are WAY more complex than they seem. So many bros seems to think that eating soy will increase your estrogen or lower your testosterone or something. This is SO oversimplified it isn't even funny. Phytoestrogens often have both estrogenic and antiestrogenic effects in the box. They can also alter to ratio of estrogens in tour body, so your body starts producing more or less estradiol and more or less estrone, or whatever.
Within each class there are many different actual chemicals:
- The first primary class of phytoestrogens is isoflavones. Common isoflavones include formononetin, daidzein, biochanin A, genistein, O-desmethylangolensin, and equol. Isoflavones primarily come from legumes, with the top contributor there being soy. The reason for this is because soy flour, soy protein isolates, and other soy-related products are added to all the bullshit junk food that 99% of Americans consume (and the world, maybe?). They're added to processed meats, meat substitutes (yuck those are digsusting), breads, protein bars, cereals, granolas. In some countries like Mexico they have even started advertising "soybeal oil" as a cooking oil to use in lieu of Olive Oil or Canola Oil. (Tangent: I use Olive oil for literally EVERYTHING, and only occasionally use coconut oil for curries or stir fries, but there is zero reason in my book to use any other oil--other than the price.)
- The other primary class of phytoestrogens is lignans, the primary ones being matairesinol and secoisolariciresinol, which are transformed by intestinal bacteria into the estrogenic compounds enterolactone and enterodiol, respectively. Lignans are found in flax seeds at CRAZY high levels, along with whole wheat flour, tea, some fruits, and some ceral grains.
- Coumestans: chemicals similar to coumarin and aren't relevant to beer.
- Technically, resveratrol and trans-resveratrol are also both considered phytoestrogens!
Anyway, flax has WAY higher phytoestrogen content than soy, which you can see below. However, this is in the form of lignans vs isoflavones
View attachment 148510
There are tons of factors at play regarding these things. Every person is going to both absorb and metabolize phytoestrogens differently. Our gut bacteria plays a HUGE role in metabolizing the phytoestrogens found in these plants into their respective active metabolites. As we know, the human gut microbiome is unfathomably complex AND varies WILDLY from person to person (that is an understatement).
Anyway, people talk about flax seeds, soybeans, tofu, soy products, etc. But few people talk about beer, which most of the guys calling other guys "soy boys" have probably already had a few of! It is true that beer has very low quantities of phytoestrogens, however, they happen to be INCREDIBLY POTENT. The phytoestrogens in beer comes from the hops. So hoppier beers like IPAs and whatnot have higher levels of the phytoestrogen, which is called 8-prenylnaringenin (8-PN). 8-PN is considered to be the most potent phytoestrogen ever discovered! Ok, so very low levels but very potent, seems not TOO bad, right?
Well, there is another chemical in beer called isoxanthohumol, of which 90% of it gets biotransformed into 8-PN. This biotransformation effectively drastically increases the estrogenic activity of beer, and it's been shown that it could result in a 10-fold increase in exposure. (source) 8-PN has been shown to be SO POTENT that it can treat symptoms of menopause!
Now there, are also some beneficial effects too, such as some reduction in inflammation, apparent protection against some types of cancer, and more. These aren't simply estrogenic agonists/modulators, they do all sorts of things. However, 8-PN is so potent that it is actually categorized as a SERM! It predominantly binds to ERα, which is mainly expressed in endometrium and ovarian stroma (not relevant to males, obviously), bones, and the mammary gland (which is what gets enlarged in cases of the dreaded gyno). Tamoxifen and raloxifene also selectively bind to ERα, but they are antagonists of breast tissue, whereas 8-PN in beer is an agonist.
This is interesting, as the majority of phytoestrogens preferentially bind to ERβ, which is prevalent in adipose tissue, endothelial cells, brain, kidneys, and the prostate. I don't know much about this mechanism of action or the effects here.
Anecdotally, all the guys I know that have been serious beer drinkers throughout their lives seem to have some level of gyno. I don't think I know anybody who drinks a beer or two every day, or goes FUCKING HAM every weekend, downing 12 beers in a day or whatever (I don't know, I don't drink) that doesn't seem to have some level of gyno developing. I hypothesize that, since 60 to 70% of teen boys experience gyno anyway, perhaps the 8-PN exposure from overly abundant beer drinking just makes it worse and wouldn't actually cause it? Plus most abundant beer drinkers are fat anyway, so that doesn't help at all. But I digress...
Personally, I don't drink any beer anymore. Honestly I don't really like it to begin with. I don't like spending my hard-earned calories on consuming what I like to call "liquid bread"--especially when chances are I have some fucking bombastic homemade sourdough sitting around anyway that I would MUCH rather eat. If I want an alcohol-like buzz, I will usually take a tablespoon or two of micronized kava.
So to wrap it up, I ask thee: why is beer considered such a "manly drink" (at least in America)? When itWhy is it that American guys seem to look at you weird when they ask "Hey there bud you wanta beer?" and you say "Nah I'm good I'll have a glass of wine, thanks though." I mean personally I prefer water, but I like wine better if I really have to drink something lol. Anyway. Just some food (or drink) for thought for everyone. I remembered reading about this a few years back and wanted to post about it...been chipping away over the last few days. Hopefully it is interesting for everyone!
Therapeutic Perspectives of 8-Prenylnaringenin, a Potent Phytoestrogen from Hops - PMC
Hop (Humulus lupulus L.), as a key ingredient for beer brewing, is also a source of many biologically active molecules. A notable compound, 8-prenylnaringenin (8-PN), structurally belonging to the group of prenylated flavonoids, was shown to be a ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Flavonoids as Phytoestrogenic Components of Hops and Beer - PMC
The value of hops (Humulus lupulus L.) in beer production has been undisputed for centuries. Hops is rich in humulones and lupulones which gives the characteristic aroma and bitter taste, and preserves this golden drink against growing bacteria and ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Biomonitoring Summary | CDC
CDC’s Division of Laboratory Sciences coordinates the National Biomonitoring Program (NBP) which offers an assessment of nutritional status and the exposure of the U.S. population to environmental chemicals and toxic substances.
www.cdc.gov
