Soybeans and phytoestrogens? Why does nobody talk about beer? Or Flax?

MFAAS

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I never understood why people rag on soy so much. The whole "soy-boy" thing is ridiculous. Soy is delicious and nutritious (just get the organic shit otherwise you are ingesting INSANE levels of pesticides, which are even bigger endocrine disruptors than the phytoestrogens in soy are.

First of all, phytoestrogens are WAY more complex than they seem. So many bros seems to think that eating soy will increase your estrogen or lower your testosterone or something. This is SO oversimplified it isn't even funny. Phytoestrogens often have both estrogenic and antiestrogenic effects in the box. They can also alter to ratio of estrogens in tour body, so your body starts producing more or less estradiol and more or less estrone, or whatever.

Within each class there are many different actual chemicals:
- The first primary class of phytoestrogens is isoflavones. Common isoflavones include formononetin, daidzein, biochanin A, genistein, O-desmethylangolensin, and equol. Isoflavones primarily come from legumes, with the top contributor there being soy. The reason for this is because soy flour, soy protein isolates, and other soy-related products are added to all the bullshit junk food that 99% of Americans consume (and the world, maybe?). They're added to processed meats, meat substitutes (yuck those are digsusting), breads, protein bars, cereals, granolas. In some countries like Mexico they have even started advertising "soybeal oil" as a cooking oil to use in lieu of Olive Oil or Canola Oil. (Tangent: I use Olive oil for literally EVERYTHING, and only occasionally use coconut oil for curries or stir fries, but there is zero reason in my book to use any other oil--other than the price.)
- The other primary class of phytoestrogens is lignans, the primary ones being matairesinol and secoisolariciresinol, which are transformed by intestinal bacteria into the estrogenic compounds enterolactone and enterodiol, respectively. Lignans are found in flax seeds at CRAZY high levels, along with whole wheat flour, tea, some fruits, and some ceral grains.
- Coumestans: chemicals similar to coumarin and aren't relevant to beer.
- Technically, resveratrol and trans-resveratrol are also both considered phytoestrogens!

Anyway, flax has WAY higher phytoestrogen content than soy, which you can see below. However, this is in the form of lignans vs isoflavones
View attachment 148510

There are tons of factors at play regarding these things. Every person is going to both absorb and metabolize phytoestrogens differently. Our gut bacteria plays a HUGE role in metabolizing the phytoestrogens found in these plants into their respective active metabolites. As we know, the human gut microbiome is unfathomably complex AND varies WILDLY from person to person (that is an understatement).

Anyway, people talk about flax seeds, soybeans, tofu, soy products, etc. But few people talk about beer, which most of the guys calling other guys "soy boys" have probably already had a few of! It is true that beer has very low quantities of phytoestrogens, however, they happen to be INCREDIBLY POTENT. The phytoestrogens in beer comes from the hops. So hoppier beers like IPAs and whatnot have higher levels of the phytoestrogen, which is called 8-prenylnaringenin (8-PN). 8-PN is considered to be the most potent phytoestrogen ever discovered! Ok, so very low levels but very potent, seems not TOO bad, right?

Well, there is another chemical in beer called isoxanthohumol, of which 90% of it gets biotransformed into 8-PN. This biotransformation effectively drastically increases the estrogenic activity of beer, and it's been shown that it could result in a 10-fold increase in exposure. (source) 8-PN has been shown to be SO POTENT that it can treat symptoms of menopause!

Now there, are also some beneficial effects too, such as some reduction in inflammation, apparent protection against some types of cancer, and more. These aren't simply estrogenic agonists/modulators, they do all sorts of things. However, 8-PN is so potent that it is actually categorized as a SERM! It predominantly binds to ERα, which is mainly expressed in endometrium and ovarian stroma (not relevant to males, obviously), bones, and the mammary gland (which is what gets enlarged in cases of the dreaded gyno). Tamoxifen and raloxifene also selectively bind to ERα, but they are antagonists of breast tissue, whereas 8-PN in beer is an agonist.

This is interesting, as the majority of phytoestrogens preferentially bind to ERβ, which is prevalent in adipose tissue, endothelial cells, brain, kidneys, and the prostate. I don't know much about this mechanism of action or the effects here.

Anecdotally, all the guys I know that have been serious beer drinkers throughout their lives seem to have some level of gyno. I don't think I know anybody who drinks a beer or two every day, or goes FUCKING HAM every weekend, downing 12 beers in a day or whatever (I don't know, I don't drink) that doesn't seem to have some level of gyno developing. I hypothesize that, since 60 to 70% of teen boys experience gyno anyway, perhaps the 8-PN exposure from overly abundant beer drinking just makes it worse and wouldn't actually cause it? Plus most abundant beer drinkers are fat anyway, so that doesn't help at all. But I digress...

Personally, I don't drink any beer anymore. Honestly I don't really like it to begin with. I don't like spending my hard-earned calories on consuming what I like to call "liquid bread"--especially when chances are I have some fucking bombastic homemade sourdough sitting around anyway that I would MUCH rather eat. If I want an alcohol-like buzz, I will usually take a tablespoon or two of micronized kava.

So to wrap it up, I ask thee: why is beer considered such a "manly drink" (at least in America)? When itWhy is it that American guys seem to look at you weird when they ask "Hey there bud you wanta beer?" and you say "Nah I'm good I'll have a glass of wine, thanks though." I mean personally I prefer water, but I like wine better if I really have to drink something lol. Anyway. Just some food (or drink) for thought for everyone. I remembered reading about this a few years back and wanted to post about it...been chipping away over the last few days. Hopefully it is interesting for everyone!




 
I don't know why my picture didn't show up:

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It's funny that beer isn't even on here. This sort of scale is also not super meaningful, since the different foods have different phytoestrogens in them (different chemicals), some of which are more potent than others, or act on different estrogen receptor subtypes. If I had to speculate, if we changed this scale to "estrogenic activity" rather than simply phytoestrogen content in micrograms, I think a lager or IPA beer would be at the very top of this list. It might seem lower, but because of the 8-PN metabolite of isoxanthohumol, it is actually WAY higher.

So yeah, maybe avoid beer? And DEFINITELY IMO guys should not be downing hop extract, which women use to help them sleep and alleviate menopause symptoms. It's funny, a lot of blog "articles" seem to say that it helps because of the "polyphenols", but fail to mention that, while 8-PN is chemically considered a polyphenol, the reason it helps is because it's a SERM. Obviously the average person doesn't even know what a polyphenol is. They hear that green tea has polyphenols, and whatever else, so it is so healthy for you! It's very misleading. Fucking health blogging at its finest! lol...
 
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Lmao. I just read an article about baby's soy formula. 22000% higher estrogen in male AND female infants. The articles said thats the equivalent of 5 birth control pills a DAY. thats all by design to breed the Alpha male out of existence. So much easier controlling little bitches
Yeah and I read that the beer-based baby formulas are even worse!!
 
I don’t eat soy because it’s gross, not because I’m worried that it will turn me into a Linkin Park-listening soyboi.

Tofu is like plant-based Playdoh.
I don't mind it cooked certain ways. There are like 3 things that I make with tofu that I really like:
1. This "vegan" lasagna (although we use egg noodles) where I use high-protein tofu instead of cheese. Makes the macros super solid and honestly tastes fucking amazing
2. Japanese tofu. If you lightly batter the tofu in arrowroot powder you can get that delicious "skin" that they make at Japanese restaurants. It's not quite tempura because there's no crisp, but it is definitely Japanese and it is really fucking good with some coconut aminos (soy sauce substitute)
3. This chocolate pudding recipe where you use tofu instead of whatever pudding is normally made with (I don't eat any processed foods except peanut butter, cashew/almond milk, and yogurt--everything else is all homemade over here!). It's very good and has pretty solid macros. I use the tofu with "Silk protein nut milk" and sweetener and cocoa and it tastes indistinguishable from normal pudding. The texture is slightly different but as long as you have the proper milk/tofu ratio it works great!

As far as chocolate pudding goes, I also will take 200g greek yogurt, add 25g whey protein, 6-8g cocoa, and either honey or maple syrup and that tastes just like chocolate pudding too. The whey protein isolate changes the texture to be thicker. I almost always add why to my yogurt, I like to mix the fast and slow digesting proteins. Do the same with oatmeal in the morning for breakfast. Also add the whey to any sweet breads I make, fruit crisps, etc. It's just such an easy thing to do and I love telling people "yeah this crisp has 12 grams of protein per serving" and the surprise on their face is just great :D

But yeah, for the most part I am not a big fan of tofu. It can be fine in other things like a well-made curry, but definitely not my favorite. Chicken, salmon, and US-sourced tilapia are king in my book. Not a huge beef person, but I do enjoy it on occasion. Oh and obviously eggs and greek yogurt and my beloved MyProtein Whey Protein Isolate.

There you go @Test_Subject, another long-winded post from me first thing in the morning, likely alot about stuff you don't really care too much about LOL. Enjoy!
 
I could eat lbs of edamame and soy sauce. The same people I hear say to avoid soy because of estrogen are the same ones who say to do dips and cable crossovers to get rid of man boobs.
 
Lmao. I just read an article about baby's soy formula. 22000% higher estrogen in male AND female infants. The articles said thats the equivalent of 5 birth control pills a DAY. thats all by design to breed the Alpha male out of existence. So much easier controlling little bitches
I’m married to a 5 foot Latina and yeah, it’s really not.
 
I could eat lbs of edamame and soy sauce. The same people I hear say to avoid soy because of estrogen are the same ones who say to do dips and cable crossovers to get rid of man boobs.
Yeah I don't think having soy in your diet matters much for an adult and especially so for those of us on TRT/cruising. For babies and young children I definitely think it can have a large impact on their development and endocrine function and possibly things like sexual identity or orientation--who knows though. It definitely seems like various pesticides and EDCs have a MUCH larger effect along with also being carcinogenic.
 
I was going to contribute that pretty much all comestible plant based foods have phytoestrogens. And not all phytoestrogens are the same. Soy has isoflavones. Flax has lignans. And there are others.

With just the isoflavone category alone, there are more than 1,000 types. Genistein and daidzein are the ones found in soy and have some very strong estrogenic properties.

I think, bottom line, what matters most is eating a balanced diet and exercising moderation. In other words, don't consume bucket loads of one thing.

But then again, in Asian cultures where soy based products are consumed a lot more regularly, we don't seem to hear of many issues with men and soy. So I'm left wondering if this is hyped up.
 
I don’t eat soy because it’s gross, not because I’m worried that it will turn me into a Linkin Park-listening soyboi.

Tofu is like plant-based Playdoh.
1) didnt you even read his post, its not soyboy anymore its soytransexuals.

2) ive eaten a fairbit of playdough as a kid, its insulting to compare it to tofu, please write a letter of apology to the good ppl of playdough company.
 
I don't know why my picture didn't show up:

View attachment 148727


It's funny that beer isn't even on here. This sort of scale is also not super meaningful, since the different foods have different phytoestrogens in them (different chemicals), some of which are more potent than others, or act on different estrogen receptor subtypes. If I had to speculate, if we changed this scale to "estrogenic activity" rather than simply phytoestrogen content in micrograms, I think a lager or IPA beer would be at the very top of this list. It might seem lower, but because of the 8-PN metabolite of isoxanthohumol, it is actually WAY higher.

So yeah, maybe avoid beer? And DEFINITELY IMO guys should not be downing hop extract, which women use to help them sleep and alleviate menopause symptoms. It's funny, a lot of blog "articles" seem to say that it helps because of the "polyphenols", but fail to mention that, while 8-PN is chemically considered a polyphenol, the reason it helps is because it's a SERM. Obviously the average person doesn't even know what a polyphenol is. They hear that green tea has polyphenols, and whatever else, so it is so healthy for you! It's very misleading. Fucking health blogging at its finest! lol...
Technically, I really don't think they have a clue what naturals like SOY actually do to and how they involve with the metabolism. WITH CONSIDERATION.. And just because a particular natural molecule RESEMBLES estrogen and Thus may have the potential to involve with Steroid receptors, this does not tell whether or not they are necessarily agonist, ant-agonist, or neutral actors. And At WHICH PARTICULAR RECEPTORS EVEN. Or concepts as to how much affinity they may actually possess and under WHAT Conditions. Plus everyone is genetically different in terms of metabolic propensity and on top of that the current general conditions of each person also have a strong influence over the action of these type estrogenic factors. Not to mention how the xeno-estrogens play in and compete as well. For all we know, soy beans may very well protect us from BPA and phthalates being able to engage these receptors.

Personally I feel pretty good when I have a little soy added in to my shit my diet. Also, to my recollection, a brief stent with flax seed oil in my shakes was also a pretty positive experience for me.

Anyone know what the soy power in a FOUR LOKO is??? o_O
 
If I want an alcohol-like buzz, I will usually take a tablespoon or two of micronized kava
I thought they had pretty much bunked Kava out to heavy and serious risk to liver??

Speaking of a buzz, I really need to get my ass a state over and get me some more Kratom. That's a seriously under-rated do-gudder....
 
I thought they had pretty much bunked Kava out to heavy and serious risk to liver??

Speaking of a buzz, I really need to get my ass a state over and get me some more Kratom. That's a seriously under-rated do-gudder....
Idk, I rarely ever use kava at all. I actually stopped and threw the rest of mine away as it fucks with my already bad sleep.

Kratom is great, but it is quite addictive and really easy to become dependent on...speaking from personal experience.
 
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