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[Geterdun]

@CdnGuy you know I've never done that shit, but I'm leaving now, keep that bong full for me!

 

[mghoward74]

I never watched those vids but even pharmaceutical companies have to make adjustments to their production line. Humidity, ambient temps, purity of the raw, a wrong tear on a scale, etc etc can all affect end results. Pharma is generally tighter with their variance bc they run QC during production runs and make constant adjustments. I have no idea what this lab does but making a consistent product within +/- 10% variance isn't as easy as baking brownies, especially when done on such a massive scale. My cousin works at a pharmaceutical company and he says they pay employees to sit at the line, test random samples and make adjustments. That's their entire Job and they get paid pretty well for it too lol.

It's the portrayal of them supposedly acting as big pharmaceutical companies do. It CAN be deceptive...I guess.

 

[Docd187123]

Who are the "many" that have called him a shill? I'm not saying no one hasnt, but many might be a bit far.

Why doesn't he have to supply proof about his Pcom experiences? He can come say it's all been good over the years without supplying blood work like we ask from pretty much anyone who is backing a source as he admitted already?

I'm not saying Achillies26 is correct, but at least he has pictures with something. Maybe a scam, sure, but why does TBJ9000 get to praise Pcom, for over 24 hours I believe and in my opinion, more than the known shills, or Darius and Frank themselves have, but he gets a free pass every time he says he has used their gear and it was good?

By the way, this is the first time I believe I have said anything about TBJ9000, if it's not, I apologize in advance.

@Docd187123 Dont think I'm bashing you, I'm not, just trying to look at this from all angles.

You've approached me with nothing but respect so you'll get nothing but respect back. I'm always open to being questioned and I'm never above reproach. Looking at shit from all angles is imperative before making up ones mind so I'm fine with you engaging me whenever man. Seriously.

Without getting into an argument regarding semantics of the term many, let's just say half or more of the respondents in the last few pages of this thread have called him a shill...give or take.

I never said anything about providing proof for his claims. The thing is though, the proof required to back up a claim needs to be relative to the claim. I mean if one is making a hefty claim it requires heft proof if one is making a minor claim it requires minor proof. The other thing is, if he doesn't or refuses to provide proof, then he's really not required to do so but an astute member should take that comment with a grain of salt. I don't put stock in what everyone tells me unless I see the proof but that doesn't mean they can't tell me it. It just means if they want me to believe them they'll need ample evidence. Also consider the treatment he got. Would you be leaping at the chance to post your proof to a herd of ppl who would likely refute it on redidulous reasoning? Again, not saying he's a shill or not, although my opinion would be the latter, just that the treatment wasn't fitting of the "crime" so to,speak.

 

[CdnGuy]

@CdnGuy you know I've never done that shit, but I'm leaving now, keep that bong full for me!

Virgins lungs can't jump into the pro's first time man lol baby steps padwan. ..good night

 

[Docd187123]

It's the portrayal of them supposedly acting as big pharmaceutical companies do. It CAN be deceptive...I guess.

Oh for sure and it makes for a great marketing video to sell their brand but you and I have a discerning eye for what's simple marketing hype and what's real. Besides the fact that I make my own gear so I have no reason to use an UGL unless it's some exotic blend I don't want to experiment making, but one reason I haven't used Pcom is bc a quality product sells itself and they've tried too hard to sell themselves for my taste. Are their products good? I don't know. Most reports seem favorable but certainly not all and not with the consistency they claim to have. Are their products bunk or contaminated? Again, I domt know but anabolic lab has posted some good results on some of their products and Luca's NPP is almost assuredly not bacteria. Achilles issue is an idk at this point for me.

 

[weighted chinup]

Here's one example of the lack of objectivity and standardization of claims:

TBJ9000 is being called a shill by many here bc he's only here to respond to Pcom threads and talks about his positive experiences with them. Apparently coming to a forum to talk about a source positively makes him a shill.

Now Achilles26 has somethin like 23 posts on the forum and THEYRE ALL IN PCOM THREADS. Why isn't he called a reverse shill bc he's doing exactly what TBJ9000 is doimg but on the other side of the fence??? It's like anyone that goes against the herd is a shill and anyone with the herd is G2G even when they do THE SAME THINGS.

Now I'm not saying TBJ9000 isn't a shill but his posts don't prove it and he's brought up some interesting points. His only fault is going against the herd.

Im Also not saying Achilles26 is a reverse shill but let's look at what we were presented with:

We have an obviously used vial of GH. The brown thing in the vial couldn't have been in there from the beginning bc then why would he pin the GH if it was. The GH is mixed with BAC water WHICH IS SUPPOSED TO KEEP A SOLUTION BACTERIOSTATIC. So when and how did this brown thing get in there???

Mob mentality and group think at it's finest - that's why one is acceptable and the other isn't. Look at how carried away people get with witch hunts that occur every now and then, even when they are completely unjustified.

How many times does this bullshit have to backfire before people realize it's not an effective way of coming to the truth.

I still remember a few months ago when people were discussing this lab and it's products, one week guys running it were hyping it up and the next week after others claimed bunk/underdosed, the same people who claimed to have amazing results were saying the gear they have in their possession that they've used now sucks.

There's really no other explanation for it. At this point if I was someone being accused of being a shill over something minor like positive feedback I wouldn't even give a shit. People have been too inconsistent in their standards and hypocritical, and as a result their word is far less impactful.

 

[Docd187123]

Also if people have a problem with Pharmacom, the only people who should respond are their sellers and reps. Because you've ordered gear does not qualify you.

Don't be offended when you step in and get called a shill when you're defending a business you claim to have no stake in. If you have no stake what do you care what someone else is saying?

If I went to McDonald's to claim my apple pie is burnt to a worker, would you step up in for the restraunt and argue against me because you bought some that were ok? I doubt it. You'd say it's not my business.

My buddy bought an iPhone that had a manufacturer defect and went to shit within a few months. He went around saying Apple is a shitty company and makes shitty products. I've owned several apple products and had fantastic experiences with them so of course I defended Apple in our conversations. Apple certainly doesn't give me any compensation to "shill" their products nor do I even own stock in Apple. There's absolutely no way I benefit in any way from endorsing Apple products other than to endorse what I believe is a good product to my fir meds and family. Such is the fickle nature of the human species.

 

[Docd187123]

Mob mentality and group think at it's finest - that's why one is acceptable and the other isn't. Look at how carried away people get with witch hunts that occur every now and then, even when they are completely unjustified.

How many times does this bullshit have to backfire before people realize it's not an effective way of coming to the truth.

I still remember a few months ago when people were discussing this lab and it's products, one week guys running it were hyping it up and the next week after others claimed bunk/underdosed, the same people who claimed to have amazing results were saying the gear they have in their possession that they've used now sucks.

There's really no other explanation for it. At this point if I was someone being accused of being a shill over something minor like positive feedback I wouldn't even give a shit. People have been too inconsistent in their standards and hypocritical, and as a result their word is far less impactful.

I can always count on WC for a logical assessment lol.

Another example to your point about witch hunts:

Look at what Odie did to GearGoddess. The same people who bashed her in Odie's thread were tripping over their feet to apologize in CBS' corollary thread bc they bought into the witch hunt without ever once applying some semblance of logic or reason. There's no independent thought.

To those who truly want to help newbs and protect their fellow juicer, take note of what WC is saying. You're not helping anyone by claiming shill every time someone posts something positive about their experience. You're stripping the meaning of the word when you use it indiscrimately. It's the boy who cried wolf except this ain't no fable. If you really want to help someone then teach them critical thought, teach them to ask questions, teach them to be weary of claims lacking evidence, teach them question the evidence critically but not indiscrimately, teach them independent thought, teach them to do their homework and how to do it, etc. teach them so that they can then help themselves and in the future teach the next generation. Joining the mob mentality does nothing to benefit anybody.

 

[jaymaximus]

My buddy bought an iPhone that had a manufacturer defect and went to shit within a few months. He went around saying Apple is a shitty company and makes shitty products. I've owned several apple products and had fantastic experiences with them so of course I defended Apple in our conversations. Apple certainly doesn't give me any compensation to "shill" their products nor do I even own stock in Apple. There's absolutely no way I benefit in any way from endorsing Apple products other than to endorse what I believe is a good product to my fir meds and family. Such is the fickle nature of the human species.

And that could be all it is my friend. I know we all have our things we defend. Sports teams. Car companies. Brands. Etc. I can understand that.

The thing about those is theyre mostly stable. You know what youre getting.

One of my main points Ive hammered again and again on here is people's devotion to labs. We've been around long enough to see them come back and bite people in the ass. And it pretty much always happens.

I just always want people's eyes open to all possibilities. Youre only as good as your last transaction in my mind.

As I stated, I ordered from Darius, everything was good. Communication. Shipping. Product. Bloods. But i'll still keep my eyes open to what's new. I would hope everyone else does the same. But some have blind allegiance.

 

[CdnGuy]

Mob mentality and group think at it's finest - that's why one is acceptable and the other isn't. Look at how carried away people get with witch hunts that occur every now and then, even when they are completely unjustified.

How many times does this bullshit have to backfire before people realize it's not an effective way of coming to the truth.

I still remember a few months ago when people were discussing this lab and it's products, one week guys running it were hyping it up and the next week after others claimed bunk/underdosed, the same people who claimed to have amazing results were saying the gear they have in their possession that they've used now sucks.

There's really no other explanation for it. At this point if I was someone being accused of being a shill over something minor like positive feedback I wouldn't even give a shit. People have been too inconsistent in their standards and hypocritical, and as a result their word is far less impactful.

WC your correct it's been over the top and I'm to blame for alot of shill accusing. But in all fairness if you care to take a minute and look back. The people called out are completely new and haven't been back since their g2g reviews. No bs ...they vanish! So it's hard not to say something when it's so damn obvious brother. Most only post in one thread...the labs thread. Legit members interact in all the fourms on Meso.

 

[Docd187123]

And that could be all it is my friend. I know we all have our things we defend. Sports teams. Car companies. Brands. Etc. I can understand that.

The thing about those is theyre mostly stable. You know what youre getting.

One of my main points Ive hammered again and again on here is people's devotion to labs. We've been around long enough to see them come back and bite people in the ass. And it pretty much always happens.

I just always want people's eyes open to all possibilities. Youre only as good as your last transaction in my mind.

As I stated, I ordered from Darius, everything was good. Communication. Shipping. Product. Bloods. But i'll still keep my eyes open to what's new. I would hope everyone else does the same. But some have blind allegiance.

Yes those markets are stable, but this community is about AAS use and lifting and as such, we defend AAS and sources bc that's the most common discussion here.

I never advocate blind devotion and I know exactly where you're coming from. I agree with probably 99% of what you're saying.

 

[jaymaximus]

My buddy bought an iPhone that had a manufacturer defect and went to shit within a few months. He went around saying Apple is a shitty company and makes shitty products. I've owned several apple products and had fantastic experiences with them so of course I defended Apple in our conversations. Apple certainly doesn't give me any compensation to "shill" their products nor do I even own stock in Apple. There's absolutely no way I benefit in any way from endorsing Apple products other than to endorse what I believe is a good product to my fir meds and family. Such is the fickle nature of the human species.

Also I gotta say this. I just got a Note 7 last week. Blows everything Apples ever done out of the water.
Samsung Rules!!!

 

[Docd187123]

Also I gotta say this. I just got a Note 7 last week. Blows everything Apples ever done out of the water.
Samsung Rules!!!

I've tried Samsung before. Never owned them but used them plenty. Just never got to like the whole user feel. Plus I'm always fixing so,e coworkers' Samsung phones and my girl had a few bad experiences with Samsung lol. End of the day you're happy and that's what matters.

 

[weighted chinup]

The people called out are completely new and haven't been back since their g2g reviews. No bs ...they vanish! So it's hard not to say something when it's so damn obvious brother. Most only post in one thread...the labs thread.

But something to ask and answer introspectively is do you apply the same level of distrust and contempt to members who do the exact same thing when they are being critical of a lab or making claims that are NOT in favor of their products?

If not, isn't that something we should be doing? The argument for the longest time has been it's better to take this shotgun approach and save people $ / being scammed, but it's not the most effective way of coming to the truth, and I would rather think critically and come to the truth when there is no immediate concern of a scam taking place or about to take place.

 

[D-max]

Nice to see jaymax, docd, and wc bring calm and a voice of reason to something spiraling out of control.

Folks like you are the reason meso is the great place it is.

I'll shill for you guys any day.[emoji6]

 

[Geterdun]

Virgins lungs can't jump into the pro's first time man lol baby steps padwan. ..good night

Bwahahahaaaa

 

[ScumOfTheEarth]

Bwahahahaaaa

Noob here... So whose a reliable and quality dealer if you don't mind me asking? Or site that you guys have managed to order from?

Thanks

 

[CdnGuy]

But something to ask and answer introspectively is do you apply the same level of distrust and contempt to members who do the exact same thing when they are being critical of a lab or making claims that are NOT in favor of their products?

If not, isn't that something we should be doing? The argument for the longest time has been it's better to take this shotgun approach and save people $ / being scammed, but it's not the most effective way of coming to the truth, and I would rather think critically and come to the truth when there is no immediate concern of a scam taking place or about to take place.

Great point...but seeing as many new members now are mainly concerned with scoring gear. Has it not bin the Meso courtesy from the longer term members to help guide new guys. By helping new guys to see the tactics used by ugl's? Unfortunately most reviews or comments are not made by too many regular members now. Some do but the majority is by unknowns. Just saying man....

 

[weighted chinup]

Great point...but seeing as many new members now are mainly concerned with scoring gear. Has it not bin the Meso courtesy from the longer term members to help guide new guys. By helping new guys to see the tactics used by ugl's? Unfortunately most reviews or comments are not made by too many regular members now. Some do but the majority is by unknowns. Just saying man....

I'm not sure if what we see taking place is really that educational for new guys though, that's the thing. It might save them $ in the sense that not doing business with a lab will eliminate their chance of losing that $, but we're really just trading one extreme for another. They aren't any closer to the truth at the end of the day. They are only really learning what to say / not to say if they want to avoid getting flamed.

I also think this has something to do with why regulars aren't doing reviews or commenting on labs as you mentioned. Ask most of them and they will tell you they don't want to deal with the subsequent and inevitable drama.

I think the two are related.

 

[Geterdun]

You've approached me with nothing but respect so you'll get nothing but respect back. I'm always open to being questioned and I'm never above reproach. Looking at shit from all angles is imperative before making up ones mind so I'm fine with you engaging me whenever man. Seriously.

Without getting into an argument regarding semantics of the term many, let's just say half or more of the respondents in the last few pages of this thread have called him a shill...give or take.

I never said anything about providing proof for his claims. The thing is though, the proof required to back up a claim needs to be relative to the claim. I mean if one is making a hefty claim it requires heft proof if one is making a minor claim it requires minor proof. The other thing is, if he doesn't or refuses to provide proof, then he's really not required to do so but an astute member should take that comment with a grain of salt. I don't put stock in what everyone tells me unless I see the proof but that doesn't mean they can't tell me it. It just means if they want me to believe them they'll need ample evidence. Also consider the treatment he got. Would you be leaping at the chance to post your proof to a herd of ppl who would likely refute it on redidulous reasoning? Again, not saying he's a shill or not, although my opinion would be the latter, just that the treatment wasn't fitting of the "crime" so to,speak.

If you look back when I ordered from Darius and then Frank, my complaints, it wasn't because of a gear quality, it was due to customer service. I wasn't a popular person for a minute or two, (probably not now, but that's ok to) I jumped at the chance to prove my case.

Again, this is a much different approach to an issue than I've seen here typically, especially with respect to new members speaking on sources. I'm not saying I don't like it, or do like it. I do know I like being able to joke with my buddy @CdnGuy and then have a fruitful debate with another member I have grown to respect, @Docd187123