Stop spoon feeding these people!

[Pinnacle Elements]

I didn't say that, did I?

What I said was they fucking YouTube their information.

There are very few YouTube videos that contain Footnotes with references, indeces of terms & concepts, etc. It's writ large infotainment, not scholarly information.

Why do you think they do that?

Simple- efficiency.

In the end, it’s up to the individual what information they consume and whether they believe it to be factual or beneficial for their end goal.

You seem clearly to be immersed in academia. So to address your point of references, scholarly information, etc. I’d respectfully disagree. I joke all the time that I earned my engineering degree(s) from YouTube. There’s an abundance of incredible academic information on YouTube.

Any person of average intelligence could become a full stack developer from YouTube.

Sure, there’s bullshit on YouTube. But your assumption is no different than the guy who goes to the library to check out playboy or back door sluts 9 on VHS.

In a real world example if you hired a contractor to build an office & 5 months in you drove up to see them using shovels by hand to excavate the site- would you not immediately fire them to get the guy with backhoes?

 

[Type-IIx]

Why do you think they do that?

Simple- efficiency.

In the end, it’s up to the individual what information they consume and whether they believe it to be factual or beneficial for their end goal.

You seem clearly to be immersed in academia. So to address your point of references, scholarly information, etc. I’d respectfully disagree. I joke all the time that I earned my engineering degree(s) from YouTube. There’s an abundance of incredible academic information on YouTube.

Any person of average intelligence could become a full stack developer from YouTube.

Sure, there’s bullshit on YouTube. But your assumption is no different than the guy who goes to the library to check out playboy or back door sluts 9 on VHS.

In a real world example if you hired a contractor to build an office & 5 months in you drove up to see them using shovels by hand to excavate the site- would you not immediately fire them to get the guy with backhoes?

When engineers cheat, people die. I don't respect this perspective at all. If I drive over a bridge, just as I wouldn't want to be on the operating table with a YouTube surgeon, I wouldn't want to know that an engineer that worked on that bridge was some jerkoff that thought he was a hotshot by skimming YouTube and probably engaging in all sorts of other "efficiencies" during his studies as well.

 

[Type-IIx]

If I found out my web developer was using ChatGPT to build even the basic structure of my site, I would not only fire him, but not pay the cunt, also. Commerce and business activity (i.e., trade) in an information age depends on the purveyors of intellectual labor like software engineering actually understanding the building block fundamentals and how to build the blocks. I think it is fucking abhorrent that AI is going to cause a loss of basic skills.

And don't go for the obvious false dilemma of "we don't program in assembly, or binary."

I expect basic competence. It's so fucking horrible that these tactics are justified by "efficiency" platitudes.

 

[laclark89]

Ima construction forman, in san fransisco. Known for world renowned engineers and architects.

We joke how they're all idiots. We constantly have to come up with solutions/ideas to fix there problems in the field.

 

[Type-IIx]

Ima construction forman, in san fransisco. Known for world renowned engineers and architects.

We joke how they're all idiots. We constantly have to come up with solutions/ideas to fix there problems in the field.

That's fucking disturbing and pathetic, but not shocking. Look at the arrogance of these shithead kids, they think they are fucking clever for being cheats and basic frauds in many instances, if the case is that they cheated and didn't focus on their studies for a profession, not some service industry gig bullshit.

 

[Pinnacle Elements]

When engineers cheat, people die. I don't respect this perspective at all.

I never mentioned cheating. I mentioned the source of the information to learn the skill.

To put it in academic terms again (which is far different from industry application) - if I spent 2 hours learning static load analysis on a truss on YouTube but my classmate went to the library, searched for reference material, read it and learned the same thing in 8 hours…

Then we both walk in to an exam and get an A, who is “better”? Both have same grade but one was more efficient.

In industry, there’s little to no cheating. Those who cheat in school cheat themselves, as it is very apparent and they don’t succeed in the real world.

I assume you are referring to civil engineers. Because very few other engineering mistakes result in death. CE are required to hold a professional engineering license to sign off on designs. Which requires experience of years and very difficult exams to pass.

That’s a gross blanket statement to dodge my point. If a mechanical engineer “cheated” by using an aluminum frame to hang a TV that would’ve required steel, nobody is dead… your TV falls down or some shit.

 

[Pinnacle Elements]

Ima construction forman, in san fransisco. Known for world renowned engineers and architects.

We joke how they're all idiots. We constantly have to come up with solutions/ideas to fix there problems in the field.

Their*

Also, yeah the contracting officer and general contractor (your boss) would coordinate with the engineer during construction to fix those issues. Don’t kid yourself or anyone here, you work with the engineer in that instance. You know damn well you aren’t allowed to deviate and come up with your own solution unless it’s incredibly minor and doesn’t affect the design in the contract.

Absolutely there is disconnect between construction and design. You cannot professionally design and professionally know how a contractor will execute the design. There’s always going to be engineering during construction.

If you were able to Willy-nilly build from the ground up without years of analysis going into those plans and specs, then why wouldn’t you just do it? Oh yeah, because that takes engineering pre-con.

 

[Type-IIx]

I never mentioned cheating. I mentioned the source of the information to learn the skill.

To put it in academic terms again (which is far different from industry application) - if I spent 2 hours learning static load analysis on a truss on YouTube but my classmate went to the library, searched for reference material, read it and learned the same thing in 8 hours…

Then we both walk in to an exam and get an A, who is “better”? Both have same grade but one was more efficient.

In industry, there’s little to no cheating. Those who cheat in school cheat themselves, as it is very apparent and they don’t succeed in the real world.

I assume you are referring to civil engineers. Because very few other engineering mistakes result in death. CE are required to hold a professional engineering license to sign off on designs. Which requires experience of years and very difficult exams to pass.

That’s a gross blanket statement to dodge my point. If a mechanical engineer “cheated” by using an aluminum frame to hang a TV that would’ve required steel, nobody is dead… your TV falls down or some shit.

We're definitely not going to come to an amicable agreement, because I am a fundamentalist about putting in the work without cutting corners, including using fucking YouTube. I honestly feel like you should be so embarrassed man.

Chemical engineers, mechanical engineers, aeronautical engineers, petroleum engineers, embedded medical device specialist-engineers (microelectronic engineers), applied networking and systems engineers that maintain the safety grid, just a few engineers for whom mistakes cost lives.

You are such a god damn idiot. And what makes it totally unacceptable to me i the fact that you are a fucking engineer.

 

[pigeonhed]

While YouTube and similar platforms are invaluable resources for learning and expanding one's knowledge, they are not replacements for the structured, accredited, and holistic education offered by formal institutions. Each has its own role and value in the broader landscape of education and learning.

 

[Pinnacle Elements]

We're definitely not going to come to an amicable agreement, because I am a fundamentalist about putting in the work without cutting corners, including using fucking YouTube. I honestly feel like you should be so embarrassed man.

Chemical engineers, mechanical engineers, aeronautical engineers, petroleum engineers, embedded medical device specialist-engineers (microelectronic engineers), applied networking and systems engineers that maintain the safety grid, just a few engineers for whom mistakes cost lives.

You are such a god damn idiot. And what makes it totally unacceptable to me i the fact that you are a fucking engineer.

So your definition of “putting in work” means you must use outdated tools such as a library to learn your information?

Being an engineer is about knowing how to effectively and efficiently use tools to produce results.

I stand by my statement, if an individual finds it easier to learn how to code “hello world” from YouTube rather than reading it out of a book- it doesn’t matter how they learn the skill.

If that same individual can achieve the same result faster by going to a library, so be it.

It’s like giving someone the task to travel 100miles and you offer them a bicycle or a Ferari. You’re pounding your chest saying “the Ferari has an engine so it’s cheating” while encouraging others the bicycle gives you some sort of superiority because the modern tool is “cheating”

 

[Pinnacle Elements]

While YouTube and similar platforms are invaluable resources for learning and expanding one's knowledge, they are not replacements for the structured, accredited, and holistic education offered by formal institutions. Each has its own role and value in the broader landscape of education and learning.

Absolutely. When I joke about that, I would attend class at university, follow the lectures attentively then teach myself the material from YouTube.

No doubt you must follow a structured educational route. In many cases you must earn the degree to get the jobs/credentials.

software engineering may be the single outlier and even that would be extremely difficult without proper education.

 

[Type-IIx]

So your definition of “putting in work” means you must use outdated tools such as a library to learn your information?

Being an engineer is about knowing how to effectively and efficiently use tools to produce results.

I stand by my statement, if an individual finds it easier to learn how to code “hello world” from YouTube rather than reading it out of a book- it doesn’t matter how they learn the skill.

If that same individual can achieve the same result faster by going to a library, so be it.

It’s like giving someone the task to travel 100miles and you offer them a bicycle or a Ferari. You’re pounding your chest saying “the Ferari has an engine so it’s cheating” while encouraging others the bicycle gives you some sort of superiority because the modern tool is “cheating”

You are so thick and arrogant, having assumed that I'm some aloof academic in the Ivory Tower, have not the faintest understanding about engineering (lol), that I care about some stupid argument about the superiority of books versus audio-visual presentations of scholarship, taking the opportunity to correct a man's spelling in the style of unmitigated hubris, that I take you as the classic example of what is wrong with this new crop of professional, chiefly, engineer. Tone fucking deaf, love the smell of your own shit, and fucking dumb.

 

[Pinnacle Elements]

You are so thick and arrogant, having assumed that I'm some aloof academic in the Ivory Tower, have not the faintest understanding about engineering (lol), correcting a man's spelling in the style of unmitigated hubris, that I care about some stupid argument about the superiority of books versus audio-visual presentations of scholarship, that I take you as the classic example of what is wrong with this new crop of engineer. Tone fucking deaf, love the smell of your own shit, and fucking dumb.

To you too- who has pigeon holed himself so far up academia’s ass that you don’t understand how the world actually works.

 

[DECLAN]

Ima construction forman, in san fransisco. Known for world renowned engineers and architects.

We joke how they're all idiots. We constantly have to come up with solutions/ideas to fix there problems in the field.

This is the reality though. Troubleshooting and making the plan viable in application often falls on those hands on the ground. Sure, engineers and scientists will make groundbreaking inventions and breakthroughs; however, for that to work you will need the so called peons to modify, improve and make the necessary adjustments for it to work.

 

[Pinnacle Elements]

This is the reality though. Troubleshooting and making the plan viable in application often falls on those hands on the ground. Sure, engineers and scientists will make groundbreaking inventions and breakthroughs; however, for that to work you will need the so called peons to modify, improve and make the necessary adjustments for it to work.

yes, you’re describing a contractor’s job. To take plans and execute them. Aside from legal restrictions- an engineer doesn’t tell the contractor which means and methods to use to construct the design.

One contractor may do it entirely different than another.

 

[DECLAN]

Guys, relax both of you are probably correct but to begin with who do you think are we referring to here? What generation do you think these guys who need information shoveled down their throats?

Boomers? Or the proceeding generation? So unless they come clean who knows if its your grandpa who are behind technological times or some lazy young kids and it can be middle aged men who don’t have the time to search through the multiple threads to find the right answers.

It can be anyone, educated or not. So before you tell them to go screw themselves when the ask for a price list, ensure that you ask them when were they born and what is their level of education.

 

[hp15]

Amazing thread derailment

 

[Dang-1]

Ima construction forman, in san fransisco. Known for world renowned engineers and architects.

We joke how they're all idiots. We constantly have to come up with solutions/ideas to fix there problems in the field.

I’m an engineering overlord so this phenomenon is very real but rather than being an idiot we call it “disciplinary blinders”. Basically the mechanicals will always address a problem with mech equipment when the solution might be to just move a wall. When your a PE you get damn good at addressing problem but those are confined to your discipline. It’s why on bigger/more complex projects we have interdisciplinary senior engineers and we work with the GC and architectural lead to fix things on the fly. I can’t tell you how many problems that stumped a full 12 person screen share session are solved in 15 min with just three people. You just need 20-30 years experience

 

[Dang-1]

I’ll also respond to this debate on engineering as it’s quite relivant to my experience.

There is a big difference in engineering between PE’s (professional Engineers) EIT’s (Engineers in training) and unlicensed Personel. If you have a degree in engineering the licensing board views you as a designer not an engineer. The full liability for lawsuits/loss of life is upon the sealing engineer and none of us are using youtube as a reference. The most I’ve ever done is watch an online video from some academic LEL (lower explosion Level for fire protection) calc to double check our own calc.

 

[Pinnacle Elements]

I’m an engineering overlord so this phenomenon is very real but rather than being an idiot we call it “disciplinary blinders”. Basically the mechanicals will always address a problem with mech equipment when the solution might be to just move a wall. When your a PE you get damn good at addressing problem but those are confined to your discipline. It’s why on bigger/more complex projects we have interdisciplinary senior engineers and we work with the GC and architectural lead to fix things on the fly. I can’t tell you how many problems that stumped a full 12 person screen share session are solved in 15 min with just three people. You just need 20-30 years experience

The “problems” he’s talking about fixing are in realm of an already constructed pipe fixture a little bit too close to this bolt that needs to be screwed behind it, he can’t reach it with his hand. He has to get crafty or a different tool to screw this bolt according to the design.

To claim as a foreman that he solves true design flaws on the fly - those which would require modifications by the engineer is ridiculous. They’d involve breach of contract, liability, potential risk of failure of the product and so on.

That’s what you’re talking about, modifications by an engineer. I agree with you on your points.