swale

[mxim]

if 50 mgs of clomid per day raise LH and double natural T levels,why not use clomid for TRT? please explaine why? also,what about nolvadex? i realize arimadex and others lower estrogen too much and cause a problem with lipid profiles but low dose clomid does not seem to do that.
thanks

 

[SWALE]

There have been several threads discussing htis very topic, but, basically, while SERM-class drugs indeed elevate T levels, patients do not report the subjective benefits of same. I wish I knew why.

 

[Kroms_laugh]

if 50 mgs of clomid per day raise LH and double natural T levels,why not use clomid for TRT? please explaine why? also,what about nolvadex? i realize arimadex and others lower estrogen too much and cause a problem with lipid profiles but low dose clomid does not seem to do that.
thanks

The long-term effects of Clomid are unknown. So far, the longest documented case of treatment I've found is 60 days. Any length beyond that, is stepping out into the unknown. When it comes to my health, I don't like undiscovered frontiers.

 

[jboldman]

Here is one at 120 days.

jb
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Int J Impot Res. 2003 Jun;15(3):156-65. Related Articles, Links


Clomiphene increases free testosterone levels in men with both secondary hypogonadism and erectile dysfunction: who does and does not benefit?

Guay AT, Jacobson J, Perez JB, Hodge MB, Velasquez E.

Center for Sexual Function (Endocrinology), Peabody, Massachusetts 01960, USA. andre.t.guay@lahey.org

Secondary hypogonadism is more common than primary gonadal failure and is seen in chronic and acute illnesses. Although testosterone has a role in erections, its importance in erectile dysfunction (ED) has been controversial. Hypogonadism produced by functional suppression of pituitary gonadotropins has been shown to correct with clomiphene citrate, but with a modest effect on sexual function. We wondered if longer treatment would produce improved results. A total of 178 men with secondary hypogonadism and ED received clomiphene citrate for 4 months. Sexual function improved in 75%, with no change in 25%, while significant increases in luteinizing hormone (P<0.001) and free testosterone (P<0.001) occurred in all patients. Multivariable analysis showed that responses decreased significantly with aging (P<0.05). Decreased responses also occurred in men with diabetes, hypertension, coronary artery disease, and multiple medication use. Since these conditions are more prevalent with aging, chronic disease may be a more important determinant of sexual dysfunction. Men with anxiety-related disorders responded better to normalization of testosterone. Assessment of androgen status should be accomplished in all men with ED. For those with lower than normal age-matched levels of testosterone treatment directed at normalizing testosterone with clomiphene citrate is a viable alternative to giving androgen supplements.

The long-term effects of Clomid are unknown. So far, the longest documented case of treatment I've found is 60 days. Any length beyond that, is stepping out into the unknown. When it comes to my health, I don't like undiscovered frontiers.

 

[jboldman]

This has been preciiosly reported but interesting: I apologize if it is somewhat offtopic here and feel free to move it to the anabolic forum if deemed inappropriate.

jb

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Fertil Steril. 2003 Jan;79(1):203-5. Related Articles, Links


Use of clomiphene citrate to reverse premature andropause secondary to steroid abuse.

Tan RS, Vasudevan D.

Department of Family and Community Medicine, University of Texas Health Sciences Center, Houston, Texas 77030, USA. robert.s.tan@uth.tmc.edu

OBJECTIVE: To report a case of symptomatic hypogonadism induced by the abuse of multiple steroid preparations that was subsequently reversed by clomiphene. DESIGN: Case report. SETTING: University-affiliated andrology practice within family practice clinic. PATIENT(S): A 30-year-old male. INTERVENTION(S): Clomiphene citrate, 100-mg challenge for 5 days, followed by treatment at same dose for 2 months. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Clinical symptoms, androgen decline in aging male questionnaire, total T, FSH, LH. RESULT(S): Reversal of symptoms, normalization of T levels with LH surge, restoration of pituitary-gonadal axis. CONCLUSION(S): Clomiphene citrate is used typically in helping to restore fertility in females. This represents the first case report of the successful use of clomiphene to restore T levels and the pituitary-gonadal axis in a male patient. The axis was previously shut off with multiple anabolic steroid abuse.

 

[Kroms_laugh]

Here is ne at 120 days.

jb

whoa... never seen that before. lol

That throws a wrench in my TRT thinking machine.

return confusion;

 

[SWALE]

No, I do not believe there is any confusion as to whether to use it as TRT (do not), but there certainly is no explanatin I have ever heard of as to why. If Clomid was sufficient as TRT, I would be delighted to just pass out little white pills to my TRT patients.

Good posts, jb, thank you. Both are completely germaine to the discussion at hand. BTW, I discussed this work with Dr. Tan two Decembers ago, at my first A4M conferecne. In fact, while listening to his lecture, I first gained confidence that I knew more than the teachers--all thanks to my involvement in the AAS Boards (combined with personal experience with AAS and alos medical school education, of course)! It was an epiphanous moment I will never forget.

IF SERM-class drugs worked as TRT, we would then also gain their benefits of estrogen modulation. AND no HPTA-modulation. That would be SWEET! Alas, they look good on paper, and on lab printouts, but fall short with respect to subjective report.