Tirzepatide max dosage

[anon55]

Hello mesoRx !
I'm currently on tirzepatide 20mg once a week and no longer feel it. I can eat and think about food, even do cheat meals almost like I used to do. Weight is not going back. But I hate the food noise, my diet is becoming harder to maintain.
Should I increase the dose to 25 mg weekly? To be honest I kinda want to try if needed up to 30mg weekly.
What's your thoughts? Is there really risks? More than those that we know? Have someone tried those huge dosages?

Thanks

 

[Sampei]

It is possible. Which is what Ghoul said. See that apostrophe? Are you looking for a reason to be mad, or is it just poor reading comprehension?

I think ghouls was being ironic

 

[Ghoul]

It is possible. Which is what Ghoul said. See that apostrophe? Are you looking for a reason to be mad, or is it just poor reading comprehension?

It certainly is possible for a type 2 diabetic to come off insulin.

Or even, if they expended every ounce of time and bandwidth to control each morsel they put in their mouths, to control blood glucose "manually" and never go on it. After all, type two diabetics had to that prior to insulin being developed. Of course that's a huge imposition and makes it difficult to deal with the rest of life's challenges, and so with the miracle of science, they can be freed from that burden and live a reasonably normal life.

Hypogonadism can often be improved by weight loss, exercise, changes in diet, resolving sleep apnea, addressing unresolved thyroid issues, etc, all, collectively raising Testosterone levels, But not all of these things can be readily fixed, like certain causes of sleep apnea, or finding sufficient time to exersize while still making a living, but again, either in the interim or long term, science provides an immediate fix.

My point was the lingering, archaic belief that all weight issues are simply a lack of willpower, and that after just "learning how to control yourself" after using the "diet cheat" of a GLP, everyone can drop that hormone and not revert to baseline weight as 95% do.

They seem to find the idea almost offensive, that something more rooted in a biology could be at play, like GLP-1 insufficiency, which will not be "learned" out of.

What, I wonder, do they think would be the symptoms of someone not producing enough GLP-1? Excessive appetite, beyond energy needs, and the intrusive, all encompassing thoughts that accompany it perhaps? Or is that hormone, uniquely, not subject to deficiency?

That's not to say personal choices and responsibility don't come into play. They certainly do, as manifested by muscle loss from failing to eat sufficient protein or exercising.

A funny thing though, once "food noise" is silenced. In the main, the food business is seeing a shift to not only less consumption, but rising demand for healthier, more protein dense foods from GLP users.

It's as if when given the chance to make conscious choices absent the pressure of malfunctioning biology, many of these weak people, who lack willpower, are choosing wisely.

 

[chmuse]

It certainly is possible for a type 2 diabetic to come off insulin.

Or even, if they expended every ounce of time and bandwidth to control each morsel they put in their mouths, to control blood glucose "manually" and never go on it. After all, type two diabetics had to that prior to insulin being developed. Of course that's a huge imposition and makes it difficult to deal with the rest of life's challenges, and so with the miracle of science, they can be freed from that burden and live a reasonably normal life.

Hypogonadism can often be improved by weight loss, exercise, changes in diet, resolving sleep apnea, addressing unresolved thyroid issues, etc, all, collectively raising Testosterone levels, But not all of these things can be readily fixed, like certain causes of sleep apnea, or finding sufficient time to exersize while still making a living, but again, either in the interim or long term, science provides an immediate fix.

My point was the lingering, archaic belief that all weight issues are simply a lack of willpower, and that after just "learning how to control yourself" after using the "diet cheat" of a GLP, everyone can drop that hormone and not revert to baseline weight as 95% do.

They seem to find the idea almost offensive, that something more rooted in a biology could be at play, like GLP-1 insufficiency, which will not be "learned" out of.

What, I wonder, do they think would be the symptoms of someone not producing enough GLP-1? Excessive appetite, beyond energy needs, and the intrusive, all encompassing thoughts that accompany it perhaps? Or is that hormone, uniquely, not subject to deficiency?

That's not to say personal choices and responsibility don't come into play. They certainly do, as manifested by muscle loss from failing to eat sufficient protein or exercising.

A funny thing though, once "food noise" is silenced. In the main, the food business is seeing a shift to not only less consumption, but rising demand for healthier, more protein dense foods from GLP users.

It's as if when given the chance to make conscious choices absent the pressure of malfunctioning biology, many of these weak people, who lack willpower, are choosing wisely.

I was more taking issue with the tone. That you were implying it's impossible to come off, when that's just.... not what you said? Putting words in someone else's mouth and then using that to make your point is a choice.

There's a misconception that most people gain weight by not trying hard enough. The reality is that for some people, there are underlying issues, some that haven't even been identified yet because medicine is an ever evolving science. We are always learning new things about human biology.

 

[Ghoul]

I was more taking issue with the tone. That you were implying it's impossible to come off, when that's just.... not what you said? Putting words in someone else's mouth and then using that to make your point is a choice.

There's a misconception that most people gain weight by not trying hard enough. The reality is that for some people, there are underlying issues, some that haven't even been identified yet because medicine is an ever evolving science. We are always learning new things about human biology.

Billions of dollars a year were spent on the diet industry, and most of us have seen others put in a huge effort to lose weight, and, as the statistics clearly demonstrate, within 5 years, frequently after having to deal with some other stressful situation that consumed their attention, slide back to their previous weight, only to try again and again.

Far from the lazy mountains of lard unwilling to make changes because they couldn't sacrifice the visceral pleasure of food, in the main people moved heaven and earth to get the chance overcome their (often severe) needle phobia, stick a pin into themselves, just so they could give up the enjoyment of food and spend an inordinate amount of time bent over the toilet.

I've pointed out many times before, if appetite and the control it exerts over us isn't potent, why are there so many posts from guys begging for advice on an appetite stimulant because they can't eat another bite? The thought makes them ill. their throats close up. If a drug can make them able to eat, then couldn't they have "willpowered" through it?

Put the food in your mouth, chew, and swallow, right? How hard could that be?

Well, as it turns out, it's very hard to overcome the desire of your energy homeostasis system, whether it's signaling "you must stop eating" or "We're starving to death", regardless of what's actually in line with your desires.

 

[mikeh1998]

I wonder how accurate it is.
The chatgpt gpt4 model was giving me numbers and citing sources as well..but if you visit them sources you would see that the figures and numbers do not add up....and alot of the info and figures it gives aren't even in the sources it cites lol.

E.g if the article says strong relationship, it;ll just dump some random number like 95% and give you it..

Similar to Google search summaries it doesn't care about how bad a source is, it has no problem using Wordpress blog posts as sources when it comes to answering questions about supplements.

Also I have noticed recently ChatGPT is refusing to answer many questions about steroids, this changed in the past week.

 

[rxzed]

Similar to Google search summaries it doesn't care about how bad a source is, it has no problem using Wordpress blog posts as sources when it comes to answering questions about supplements.

Also I have noticed recently ChatGPT is refusing to answer many questions about steroids, this changed in the past week.

AI's usability depends on how you phrase your questions. If you ask them to list RCTs to support their answer for example, you can draw a much better conclusion. They should only be used as a tool, at least for now, in my opinion; their answers can be wildly inaccurate.

 

[AlexDavis43]

Fwiw, Daniel Drucker doesn't think GLP1 drugs are just like endogenous GLP1 but times 100x more effective or something. He said they are acting like completely different entities altogether, not simply correcting a GLP1 deficiency (which he also questioned).

 

[Photon]

Similar to Google search summaries it doesn't care about how bad a source is, it has no problem using Wordpress blog posts as sources when it comes to answering questions about supplements.

Also I have noticed recently ChatGPT is refusing to answer many questions about steroids, this changed in the past week.

Might want to purge/delete all your old chats.
And stealth ur questions abit more..

AI's usability depends on how you phrase your questions. If you ask them to list RCTs to support their answer for example, you can draw a much better conclusion. They should only be used as a tool, at least for now, in my opinion; their answers can be wildly inaccurate.

I mainly use it to list research articles lol....pubmed etc
It lays them all out all nicely..it just has issues summarizing and interpreting it..the longer the article the worse it gets...If the article talks about multiple substances..it gets mixed up and confused

 

[aljowa]

Billions of dollars a year were spent on the diet industry, and most of us have seen others put in a huge effort to lose weight, and, as the statistics clearly demonstrate, within 5 years, frequently after having to deal with some other stressful situation that consumed their attention, slide back to their previous weight, only to try again and again.

Far from the lazy mountains of lard unwilling to make changes because they couldn't sacrifice the visceral pleasure of food, in the main people moved heaven and earth to get the chance overcome their (often severe) needle phobia, stick a pin into themselves, just so they could give up the enjoyment of food and spend an inordinate amount of time bent over the toilet.

I've pointed out many times before, if appetite and the control it exerts over us isn't potent, why are there so many posts from guys begging for advice on an appetite stimulant because they can't eat another bite? The thought makes them ill. their throats close up. If a drug can make them able to eat, then couldn't they have "willpowered" through it?

Put the food in your mouth, chew, and swallow, right? How hard could that be?

Well, as it turns out, it's very hard to overcome the desire of your energy homeostasis system, whether it's signaling "you must stop eating" or "We're starving to death", regardless of what's actually in line with your desires.

Just to piggyback on this and reinforce the point, I feel that of all people, us in the AAS user community should be among the most aware of just how potent hormonal imbalances/deficiencies can be in influencing mood, personality, decision-making, emotional and mental disposition, and overall well-being.

Quick show of hands: who here has ever inadvertently crashed their E2? I guarantee if you have, you can vividly remember how that felt. It shouldn't be too hard to empathize with anyone who suffers from hormonal issues. The symptoms may manifest in different ways and vary widely, depending on the specific hormones at play, but the general principle of how systemic and powerful the effects that hormones have on the mind and body should be easy to relate to and understand.

If anyone has even taken an interest in the history of Western philosophy, the idea that human action relies largely on reason and willpower is reminiscent of how for the first two millenia of its recorded history the canonical figures quite resoundingly believed that an individual's disposition and ability to make rational decisions was more-or-less just a matter of studying and applying logic and critical thinking - as if humans were purely guided by our intellect and "free" will, which were completely within our control. Then, largely due to the emergence of biological science and the evolution of its offspring, contemporary neuroscience, the realization gradually set in that on the contrary, humans are incredibly emotional creatures who are quite possibly guided exclusively by physiological factors beyond our volitional control (although, to be fair, there is still much debate regarding the degree to which this is true). Still, it is hard to dispute the famous quote by 19th century philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer:

"A man can do as he wills, but he cannot will what he wills."

(The specific diction may vary depending on the translation, but the sentiment is all the same)

The main point I'm trying to convey, and that I believe @Ghoul tries to convey regarding this specific issue (correct me if I'm wrong), is that it shouldn't be a controversial take to suggest that people who engage in behavior and actions that are detrimental to their physical/mental health are not simply doing so out of a lack of desire or will to do otherwise. There are almost certainly underlying factors at play that influence them which are largely (or entirely) outside of their control, and which are near-impossible to overcome. And the same can be said about everyone in existence.

 

[SubparMarioBro]

we do get a lot of anecdotes about a "loss of effectiveness" from "tolerance" that isn't reflected in those using pharma.

Sure it is. Go to one of the brand-name subs on Reddit such as r/wegovyweightloss and use a search term like “not working”. You’ll find a bunch of people complaining that the drug “stopped working” after they lost a bunch of weight, even at the highest dose. These concerns mirror the anecdotes you’ll see in the UGL community. While pharma doesn’t extensively report anecdotal feels in their trials, given the consistent development of weight loss plateaus and the fact that all of the long-term trial participants aren’t dying of anorexia we can surmise that they too experience a reduction in feels.

As you’ve discussed extensively, this is how these drugs work. They are not omnipotent anorectics that will cause you to lose infinite weight until you die of malnutrition. As weight is lost other hormones counterregulate the GLP-1 effect and weight loss eventually plateaus, and with the restoration of a hormonal equilibrium there is going to be a loss of feels. The fact that “I lost a bunch of weight and it stopped working” is a common anecdote with these drugs (both pharma and UGL) is due to the fact that a lot of people using them don’t understand how they work.

 

[SubparMarioBro]

Another issue that people struggle with regarding these drugs is the expectation of an average result. If you tally up all of the folks in a clinical trial there is a mean weight loss and a median weight loss, but that doesn’t mean it’s realistic to expect or anticipate an average result for you personally.

I saw this chart recently from a very small reta study on MASLD and it’s showing a scatterplot of individual outcomes. What’s most fascinating about it is the high variability in results. Ignore the y-axis and take a look at where the darkest blue dots (the 12mg dots) land on the x-axis. As you can see the individual results were all over the place. There’s only a single individual within +/- 5% of the average result. There’s three who are above 40% and there’s one down at 10%.



People sometimes struggle with the idea that “I haven’t lost as much as expected, something must be wrong… most people on Drug X lose 20.6745% of their body weight.” In reality there’s huge variability in weight loss with these drugs.

 

[Ghoul]

Another issue that people struggle with regarding these drugs is the expectation of an average result. If you tally up all of the folks in a clinical trial there is a mean weight loss and a median weight loss, but that doesn’t mean it’s realistic to expect or anticipate an average result.

I saw this chart recently from a very small reta study on MASLD and it’s showing a scatterplot of individual outcomes. What’s most fascinating about it is the high variability in results. Ignore the y-axis and take a look at where the darkest blue dots (the 12mg dots) land on the x-axis. Average weight loss in this group was 25.9% but as you can see the individual results were all over the place. There’s only a single individual within +/- 5% of the average result. There’s three who are above 40% and there’s one down at 10%.

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People sometimes struggle with the idea that “I haven’t lost as much as expected, something must be wrong… most people on Drug X lose 20.6745% of their body weight.” But in reality there’s huge variability in weight loss with these drugs.

Really only one reliable metric for losing efficacy. Steadily regaining weight at the same dose. Like Exenatide users, when it starts losing efficacy, diabetics start losing blood glucose control, and it just keeps getting worse with each passing week. But who can tell with UGL users who start stacking and changing protocols from one week to the next.. pharma users are stuck with their fixed dose pens.

 

[Danchill]

Really only one reliable metric for losing efficacy. Steadily regaining weight at the same dose. Like Exenatide users, when it starts losing efficacy, diabetics start losing blood glucose control, and it just keeps getting worse with each passing week. But who can tell with UGL users who start stacking and changing protocols from one week to the next.. pharma users are stuck with their fixed dose pens.

I have read your argument (which describes my experience very well over the last 18 months, you have been one of the clearest individuals on the subject) with regard to getting to a particular dose, dropping weight to a certain level, keeping that dose and maintaining that weight set-point. How does one explain this argument, the drop off of efficacy? The only time my weight started to head up again was when I dropped my dose/ exercise regimen. How will this impact as we move forward, do we need to start to jump to other GLPs or looking for the next gen agonist?

 

[TheScholarOfBrew]

This is my first time taking glp1 and I'm on triz.... 2.5mg and its killed all appetite I feel zero hunger... Got. Super Nautious...... This morning I felt no hunger and forced fed some chicken breast... Couldn't even finish it..... God this is going to work so well..... No desire to snack or eat. Even coffee with some nice sugar creamer was awful to drink

I've had no issues gaining weight and packing on muscle but plenty of issues losing weight and getting lean. Got a feeling this is my ticket.... @Ghoul do I sound like a good responder? 220lbs. 5'11 male 29 years old

 

[Ghoul]

This is my first time taking glp1 and I'm on triz.... 2.5mg and its killed all appetite I feel zero hunger... Got. Super Nautious...... This morning I felt no hunger and forced fed some chicken breast... Couldn't even finish it..... God this is going to work so well..... No desire to snack or eat. Even coffee with some nice sugar creamer was awful to drink

I've had no issues gaining weight and packing on muscle but plenty of issues losing weight and getting lean. Got a feeling this is my ticket.... @Ghoul do I sound like a good responder? 220lbs. 5'11 male 29 years old

Lol, yes.

It'll ease up as your weight / BF % goes
down, That's not losing efficacy, it's how it works. If you're not where you want to be when that happens, just titrate the dose up. Takes 2 weeks to feel the full effect (almost) of any particular dose.

The dose you're on at goal weight, while feeling nothing, will be your long term "maintenance" dose that will continue to provide health benefits (especially greater insulin sensitivity) but not interfere with your life.

 

[Luke391]

Do you if tirzepatide effecf on receptors is linear or more like telmisartan or even like a statin?
Most of the benefits come from a low dose and after 15mg there no much differences like between 20 and 40 of rosuvastatin?

it seems like there is deminishing returns as you go up in dose, so 20mg will be stronger than 10mg but not twice as strong. Try 25mg tirz but if still that's not enought maybe try adding a super low dose of sema, I know some people do it. Like start with 0.1mg and then tirtrate up if you need to.
You look really lean already, do you want to get even leaner or do you want to up the tirz just to make maintnance easier?
Also, try filtering your tirz with a 0.22 filter (this was ghoul's advice), he showed a study where non filtered tirz had a significantly higher immunogenicity response, so maybe you'll get a stronger effects just by filtering it.
Alao give it time. For me when I went to 5mg it hit like a truck and barely ate for 2 weeks, then my appetite came back pretty hard for 3-4weeks, and then for some reason I started to feel more appetite suppresion once again at still 5mg and I lost a little more weight. Sometimes the body needs time to adjust and if you lost a lot of bodyfat very fast this increase in appetite might just be a temporary response because you body is panicking since you are very lean. It might balance itself out in a few weeks.