Topical with PPF vs Alcohol

[James23]

I've been using the "Testosterone PG Drops" that Dr. Shippen gave me as a topical rather than an oral T supplement.

Would there be any major concern with using propylene glycol (PPG) as the only base? The drops are concentrated to approximately 1 mg of T per 1 drop. (25mg/mL.)

Essentially, I'm concerned that T in PPG won't be absorbed at all through the skin.

 

[James23]

Re: Topical with PPG vs Alcohol

This might interest Dr. Scally who said there is no use for sublingual T:


Sublingual Use of Testosterone in 7 Cases of Hypogonadism: Report of 3 Congenital Eunuchoids Occurring in One Family

 

[LW64]

I've been using the "Testosterone PG Drops" that Dr. Shippen gave me as a topical rather than an oral T supplement.

Would there be any major concern with using propylene glycol (PPG) as the only base? The drops are concentrated to approximately 1 mg of T per 1 drop. (25mg/mL.)

Essentially, I'm concerned that T in PPG won't be absorbed at all through the skin.

If it can get through the mucosa, it can get through the skin. It will be absorbed.

PPG is a (double) alcohol.

 

[James23]

If it can get through the mucosa, it can get through the skin. It will be absorbed.

PPG is a (double) alcohol.

Why isn't this used more often, then? PPG + T sounds way simpler then spreading a whole bag of alcohol + T all over half of your body.

There has to be some sort of drawback.

 

[2yung4this]

Im more concerned with the concentration of 1mg to 1 drop of liquid.....If that concentration is even accurate there is no way your absorbing the T properly.

Remember, whatever the concentration of T is, only approx 10% is absorbed transdermally.

 

[LW64]

Why isn't this used more often, then? PPG + T sounds way simpler then spreading a whole bag of alcohol + T all over half of your body.

There has to be some sort of drawback.

lol Why?

It is used often...it's in Testim along with alcohol. PPG is more oily than alcohol, so it might feel more like putting salad dressing on your skin. Adding alcohol reduces that but also increases the price, so it isnt necessary.

 

[James23]

I am concerned that the T is either getting absorbed too fast or too slow as compared to other preparations.

Consider that Androgel includes alcohol as a penetrant and to dissolve the T. However, it ALSO includes isopropyl myristate, which is the primary component of rust remover, and is the primary penetrating ingredient.

The concentration is generally accurrate. It's 25 mg of T per 1 mL of drop. Assuming that 1 drop = 1/20th of a mL (this is the standard estimation for compounding) -- then 1mg of T = 1 drop.

The mathematics behind Androgel:
Androgel = 5g total gel @1% testosterone = 50mg testosterone @ ~10% absorption = 5mg T delivered to bloodstream.

I don't know the mathematics behind T+PPG. It could be much greater or much less than 10% abortion.

2young4this is right, though -- my 1-2 drops would need to be absorbed at 100% to make a noticeable difference in serum T. Good call!

 

[LW64]

It is a low dose - it's supposed to be if the concentration is 25 mg/ml. I would consider absorption through the mucosa to be even less than in the skin, so the effective intended dose is also less. We've talked about this stuff before. These particular oral T drops are intended to give a temporary kick if/when for some reason you need a T boost over the course of a day. Basically, to make you feel better by picking up any slack you might have between normal-dose T applications. They are not intended for full-scale T replacement.

How were you planning to use this on your wrists? Assume absorption is still 10 % and you will need multiple drops. So much for limiting it to the wrists. You'll need an arm/shoulder application. If you want to only apply it on the wrists, then you'll need to do that a few times over the course of a day. Now you've got transfer concerns as well as it being just a general pain in the ass. If you're going to do that, you might as well get T lozenges and avoid all that trouble. Or just go on Testim.

 

[James23]

It is a low dose - it's supposed to be if the concentration is 25 mg/ml. I would consider absorption through the mucosa to be even less than in the skin, so the effective intended dose is also less. We've talked about this stuff before. These particular oral T drops are intended to give a temporary kick if/when for some reason you need a T boost over the course of a day. Basically, to make you feel better by picking up any slack you might have between normal-dose T applications. They are not intended for full-scale T replacement.

How were you planning to use this on your wrists? Assume absorption is still 10 % and you will need multiple drops. So much for limiting it to the wrists. You'll need an arm/shoulder application. If you want to only apply it on the wrists, then you'll need to do that a few times over the course of a day. Now you've got transfer concerns as well as it being just a general pain in the ass. If you're going to do that, you might as well get T lozenges and avoid all that trouble. Or just go on Testim.

It was prescribed for me to use in the morning as a pick-me-up, "like coffee." It doesn't do a goddamned thing.

With my low SHBG, FT and DHT skyrocket with something like Androgel. I figured that a more concentrated T solution would be best since it wouldn't need to encounter as much 5-AR as a gel spread over half of my body.

You're right, though. I'd need about 25 drops to compete with Androgel at the dosage I require. (I'd like to be around the 1/2 normal dose mark.)

A slow-release mechanism is needed because injections, hCG and Clomid all involve unpredictable peaks and valleys.

Back to square one, I guess. My goal is to get Striant. No DHT spike (mucosal) and I can probably cut the tabs in half so that my dose is half that of a normal man's.

 

[LW64]

I follow you on clomid - some estrogen receptors get very active and others get blocked.

And on HCG: - your testicles will start making estrogen at an increased rate as well as T. Combine that with the estrogen from peripheral conversion of T and your E2 will go wild.

Have you tried injections?

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Re: Topical with PPG vs Alcohol

This might interest Dr. Scally who said there is no use for sublingual T:


Sublingual Use of Testosterone in 7 Cases of Hypogonadism: Report of 3 Congenital Eunuchoids Occurring in One Family

Oral, whether SL or otherwise, is a waste and a commercial BUST. While some OLD, VERY OLD, studies are classics, the one you link to is not one of those [>60 years ago]. However, the research effort on your part is appreciated.


Hurxthal LM. Sublingual Use of Testosterone in 7 Cases of Hypogonadism: Report of 3 Congenital Eunuchoids Occurring in One Family. The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology 1943;3(10):551-6. Sublingual Use of Testosterone in 7 Cases of Hypogonadism: Report of 3 Congenital Eunuchoids Occurring in One Family

THE effects of testosterone propionate by hypodermic injection, of free testosterone by pellet implantation, and of methyl testosterone orally in producing sexual development in hypogonadal cases have been reported by many observers. In 1940, Anderson, Haymaker and Henderson (1) introduced the sublingual administration of desoxycorticosterone acetate in propylene glycol-alcohol. Other writers (2,3,4) have confirmed their successful results. Estradiol also has been used in this way by Salmon and Geist (5). In 1941, a trial of testosterone in propylene glycol-alcohol was suggested to me by Dr. Edward Henderson of the Schering Corporation, as a convenient method of administering testosterone and for comparison with clinical studies on testosterone pellet implantation. In 1942, Lisser, Escamilla and Curtis (6) reported successful sublingual therapy with testosterone, testosterone propionate and methyl testosterone dissolved in glycol.This report deals primarily with the results of administration of testosterone in propylene glycol-alcohol sublingually in 6 cases of hypogonadism and 1 case of hypopituitarism.

 

[zkt]

Seems that I read somewhere that PPG slow down the absorption as compared to ethhanol for instance. Maybe the lozenger doesnt work so well because you swallow the stuff befor it is absorbed.
I have been experimenting with SL administration of the Etoh based gel for a while with interesting results.

 

[James23]

One of the primary reasons that I think Dr. Shippen is grossly ignorant:

• The troches provided by "other doctors" are made to dissolve slowly in the mouth to keep the testosterone against the mucosal tissue for as long as possible -- 10 minutes per troche.
  
• The "drops" that Dr. Shippen compounds stay in the mouth for about 30 seconds. How could this possibly be comparable to the minor serum T increase provided by a troche?
  
• Pure PPG is proven toxic to the kidneys, and this vial is mostly pure PPG. It tastes like gasoline, it warms/burns the skin slightly, and also causes gums to bleed (a small amount.)

I suspect that these drops don't add ANY testosterone to the bloodstream when used orally. I doubt the compounding pharmacy even knows that they are to be used for oral use.