Toremifene substitue for nolva or clomid?

[Sampei]

Hello guys!

my first cycle I did PCT with only Torem and aromasin, I did recovered ok, but I think I could have done better.

So I start reading around and I can't understand IF toremifene is used as a substitute for NOLVA or CLOMID.
For what I have understood torem is almost the same as nolva, but on some other forum ppl says it's like nolva+clomid. It's really confusing.

Anyone can help me understanding if I should do pct with: torem/nolva or torem/clomid or just torem.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Studies would be nice, but whatever is available. Let us know the results.

 

[Sampei]

Only toremifene pct:

blood drawn 4 weeks after end of pct

Total T 650
LH 3,46
FSH 1,2
E2 40

Baseline was:
Total T 605
FSH 4
LH 3,8
E2 22

I was disappointed about fsh level, so that's why I want to try with clomid or nolva together with toremifene.
I would much prefer to not use neither clomid or nolva, because of toxicity and eye problems given by both... but I need to experiment so next will do: Torem/Clomid

I'm doing my second cycle atm:

1-4 Test p 80mg/ED
6-9 Torem 90/60/60/30 - Clomid 25/25/25/12.5
1-5 Aromasin 12.5/ED
6-9 Aromasin 12.5/EOD
2-4 HCG 250IU x2/week

 

[Jimmyinkedup]

I think of the 2, clomid or nolva, that clomid will have more of an impact on FSH. I only say/speculate this based on its use as a fertility drug and the necessity for adequate FSH to promote spermatogenesis.
As far as ocular concerns I would not over blow them. In fact I read an article that indicated that ocular issues from nolva were related to oxidative stress and use of a simple anti oxidant may very well negate the potential side effect. Also this effect is know to be dosage and duration dependent, neither of which are very applicable during what is PCT. Ill have to see if I can dig up that nolva/ocular/anti-oxidant study.

 

[Jimmyinkedup]

Here is the Nolvadex/Ocular Toxicity Article:
Tamoxifen, ocular toxicity, & oxidative stress

The article linked to below proposes that the ocular damage caused by tamoxifen is due to oxidative stress. The authors suggest that the use of antioxidants may help prevent such damage.

Exp Biol Med (Maywood). 2004 Jul;229(7):607-15.

Oxidative stress plays an important role in the pathogenesis of drug-induced retinopathy.

Toler SM.

Clinical Safety and Risk Management, Pfizer Inc., Pfizer Global Research and Development, 50 Pequot Avenue, New London, CT 06320. steven_m_toler@groton.pfizer.com

Several pharmaceutical agents have been associated with rare but serious retinopathies, some resulting in blindness. Little is known of the mechanism(s) that produce these injuries. Mechanisms proposed thus far have not been embraced by the medical and scientific communities. However, preclinical and clinical data indicate that oxidative stress may contribute substantially to iatrogenic retinal disease. Retinal oxidative stress may be precipitated by the interaction of putative retinal toxins with the ocular redox system. The retina, replete with cytochromes P450 and myeloperoxidase, may serve to activate xenobiotics to oxidants, resulting in ocular injury. These activated agents may directly form retinal adducts or may diminish ocular reduced glutathione concentrations. Data are reviewed that suggest that indomethacin, tamoxifen, thioridazine, and chloroquine all produce retinopathies via a common mechanism-they produce ocular oxidative stress

Full article can be accessed here:

http://www.ebmonline.org/cgi/content/full/229/7/607 (Sign In)

 

[Victor]

It's clomid that really concern me about ocular problems.

Anyway I thought the same about Clomid and fsh.

I'll do toremifene/Clomid this time.

Next one I'll do Clomid/nolva (if I can't stand the Clomid side of course)

Then at last will do torem/nolva.

I still have one big doubt. They say that nolva is much stronger then Clomid.

20mg of nolva equal
To something like 100-150 of Clomid.
But for my little understanding Clomid and nolva don't work on the same way right? I mean one doesn't exclude the other correct?


Any one want to
Chime in on the use of aromasin during pct?

I still not sure if it's a good idea to use it or not.

 

[bullets69]

There is an idea that aromasin being a steroidal aromatase inhibitor makes it a good combination with tamoxifen because SERM's will increase estrogen and shbg and aromasin will decrease estrogen and shbg. There is research that suggests that non steroidal aromatase inhibitors like anastrozole and letrozole have decreased efficacy when combined with tamoxifen.