Transdermal versus oral DHEA

[hackskii]

I think one should be very carefull with DHEA.
I was taking 100mg a day and did some blood work and my DHEA was off the chart.
I also had some testicular atrophy and my Doc suggested that this suppression might have came from the DHEA.

Too much DHEA can also give you high blood pressure.

If you are gonna take it then just take 25mg a day and you will be ok.

Remember the older you are the more you need to supplement this hormone.
You young guys dont need it.

 

[1cc]

This study uses Micronized DHEA and it is the only one I could find that has males in the study. The following excerpt is from the full text of the study and it is very encouraging.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/12/4650

Improvement in Mood and Fatigue after Dehydroepiandrosterone Replacement in Addisons Disease in a Randomized, Double Blind Trial

However, there was no significant change in either SHBG or total testosterone (Fig. 1, c and d) or estradiol (postplacebo, 95.23 7.24 nmol/L; post-DHEA, 99.38 7.32 nmol/L; P = 0.45) in males.

 

[hackskii]

I dont think the cream, or sublingual is necessary.
I was taking 100mg a day of just the stuff out of Sav-On.

My blood work was 925 MCG/DL
Refrence Range is 45-345 for Males and 25-220 for females

If mine was 3 times too high then why would you need the cream, or sublingual?
Are the orals working?.....Absolutly!
Do I need levels that high?......No way!
Doc told me to drop it down to 25mg a day max and I didnt even have the standardised stuff, I bought the cheap stuff.

My Girlfriend has an autoimmune disease and they suggested she take much much more than me.

The younger you are the less you need.

Adrehnal burnout from gear use can leave you low in DHEA too.
DHEA can convert to other hormones too, if needed.

 

[jboldman]

Sure the increases were dose dependant and in no case were the increases above pysiologic levels. We need to be aware of the difference between significant(a statistical term) and meaningful. This study goes on to say:" In conclusion, 50 mg DHEA seems to be a suitable substitution dose in elderly men, as it leads to serum DHEAS concentrations usually measured in young healthy adults. The DHEA-induced increase in circulating estrogens may contribute to beneficial effects of DHEA in men.

jb






<<Since the tests were at least 8 hours later, it is possible that the Estrogen normalized after this amount of time as mentioned in:

Biotransformation of Oral Dehydroepiandrosterone in Elderly Men: Significant Increase in Circulating Estrogens

Compared to placebo, Young et al. (18) found significant increases in serum E1 and E2 after 50 mg DHEA, but there was no longer a significant difference 8 h after administration. [/QUOTE]>>

 

[hackskii]

Ok, I was advised by my HRT Dr. to lower my DHEA dose.

You are saying that the increases were not above pysiologic levels?
Why would the blood test reflect diffrently?
Why would my Doc tell me to drop the amount to 25mg a day after taking one day off the supplement?

You need to be carefull with certain studies. Many might not be in a controlled environment.
Not all studies are correct and many can be biased.

I have alot of literature on DHEA and most guys take way too much of it.

 

[SPE]

It really depends on the person. With the same reference range, on 25mg/day my levels didn't budge(275). With 50 mg/day, my levels were 368, nowhere near supraphysiologic.

 

[hackskii]

45/345 is the normal range so 368 is above base normal (according to my test results).

275 is the upper/normal range.

Any reason why you guys like to go very high in DHEA.
It can give you high blood pressure.
It can also give you some shutdown too if too high.

I am just very curious why you guys like to be so high on the high end of things.

Don't get me wrong, I have a good library of stuff on DHEA and understand its use, I am just curious why you guys prefere such high doses when not needed.

 

[1cc]

I am just very curious why you guys like to be so high on the high end of things.

I think this is a misunderstanding. The maximum dosage of DHEA that anyone needs to take is about 50mg. The objective is to have DHEA-s levels towards the upper 1/4 of the valid lab range. My labs range is 80-560, and so around 400+ would be fine. Some guys may only need 10mg or 25mg of DHEA to get to this level. Others may need more. Taking more than 50mg DHEA may lead to excess Estrogen production and is undesireable.

 

[SPE]

I think this is a misunderstanding. The maximum dosage of DHEA that anyone needs to take is about 50mg. The objective is to have DHEA-s levels towards the upper 1/4 of the valid lab range. My labs range is 80-560, and so around 400+ would be fine. Some guys may only need 10mg or 25mg of DHEA to get to this level. Others may need more. Taking more than 50mg DHEA may lead to excess Estrogen production and is undesireable.

My lab's range is 280-640 so BOTH of my numbers, EVEN AT 50mg/day!, are still low. It is dependent on the person. Oh yeah, I'm only 26 so it's not only for older folks.

 

[SPE]

45/345 is the normal range so 368 is above base normal (according to my test results).

275 is the upper/normal range.

Any reason why you guys like to go very high in DHEA.
It can give you high blood pressure.
It can also give you some shutdown too if too high.

I am just very curious why you guys like to be so high on the high end of things.

Don't get me wrong, I have a good library of stuff on DHEA and understand its use, I am just curious why you guys prefere such high doses when not needed.

To be perfectly honest, I think 50mg in my case is too low.

 

[Sunkist]

Micronization to my knowledge does not alter the hormone, just ads to adsorptive capability due to molecular area exposed. I can't see where it would thus avoid first pass degredation. And with the studies and what it does as pertains to those of us on TRT, why would one want to? It may well be the metabolic resultants that contribute to hGH production form several studies.. not the DHEA.

I don't take DHEA for T formation, tho it may be a contributor to natural substitution. I take it to be 23 again

 

[jboldman]

I have never recommended above 50mg a day. The study spoke for itself, there are always individual variances that can be outliers, that would be why you test. At what point using 50 mg a day have you observed or heard of or read that supplemental dhea can cause high blood pressure or shutdown? Where does this come from? I am careful with the way i read studies and also careful to try to sort out hearsay and opinion. I do like blood test, perhaps you can share your results after you come down to that 50mg or lower recommended(by me) range.

jb

45/345 is the normal range so 368 is above base normal (according to my test results).

275 is the upper/normal range.

Any reason why you guys like to go very high in DHEA.
It can give you high blood pressure.
It can also give you some shutdown too if too high.

I am just very curious why you guys like to be so high on the high end of things.

Don't get me wrong, I have a good library of stuff on DHEA and understand its use, I am just curious why you guys prefere such high doses when not needed.

 

[pmgamer18]

I stopped useing DHEA 25 mgs. a day and L-Arginine 5 days ago and my E2 has settled down so much that 3 days ago I stopped taking .5 mgs. of Arimidex a day and not am getting by on just Indolplex/DIM. The test was last night I slept dam good and did not wake up in a panic or with a rash. I only took the DHEA because my levels were on the low normal. I never felt any different doing it now I know for me it was driving up my E2.

 

[jboldman]

I did not say your levels were not out of range, i referred to the levels in the study. I believe you said you were taking 100mg which, imo, is too high. I wonder why you are accusing other members here of taking high doses when you are already taking 100% more than the most commonly recommended dose?

I am very careful when reading studies and i have yet to fine one, not a single one, that has found 50mg of dhea results in supraphysiologic levels of estrogen in a statisitcally significant study.

Do i think that on a case by case observation that this could not occur? Of course not but we are not talking about outliers here, we are trying to make reasonable generalizations and sort out them myth and fiction.

I have no idea why your doctor would tell you to change to 25mg after one day of taking 100mg. Heck i have no idea why your doctor was recommending 100mg or was that your idea? He could just as easily recommended 50mg. which happens to be very commonly recommended dose and most likely would not cause your E to rise beyond PLs. Of course, your blood tests should be your ultimate guide.

On a side note your are fortunate to have a doc who is willing to closely monitor this issue and we can all gain valuable information by following your results.

jb

Ok, I was advised by my HRT Dr. to lower my DHEA dose.

You are saying that the increases were not above pysiologic levels?
Why would the blood test reflect diffrently?
Why would my Doc tell me to drop the amount to 25mg a day after taking one day off the supplement?

You need to be carefull with certain studies. Many might not be in a controlled environment.
Not all studies are correct and many can be biased.

I have alot of literature on DHEA and most guys take way too much of it.

 

[hackskii]

The 100mg was my idea.
I do have 50mg sublinguals and am using that right now but I bust them in half.
My doc told me that my atrophied nuts might have been from the 100mg of DHEA that I was taking.

He told me to only take 25mg a day and I am 46 years old.
I notice not diffrence from 100 to zero mgs a day with DHEA.

I notice nothing at all but will still take it just because I want to.


Oh, that high blood pressure thing?
It says that on the bottle.
I have read another article by a Dr that suggested high blood pressure with too high a dose of DHEA and there is some that want to lower the dose to 5mg

I know you mentioned that 50mg was the standard dose and actually it is just 25mg, I dont know where everyone is getting this 50mg average dose as it is just 25mg a day.

My girlfriend has an Autoimmune disease and she was suggested to take much more than myself.
So, maybe we are all just diffrent and one shoe does not fit all.

 

[pmgamer18]

The 100mg was my idea.
I do have 50mg sublinguals and am using that right now but I bust them in half.
My doc told me that my atrophied nuts might have been from the 100mg of DHEA that I was taking.

He told me to only take 25mg a day and I am 46 years old.
I notice not diffrence from 100 to zero mgs a day with DHEA.

I notice nothing at all but will still take it just because I want to.


Oh, that high blood pressure thing?
It says that on the bottle.
I have read another article by a Dr that suggested high blood pressure with too high a dose of DHEA and there is some that want to lower the dose to 5mg

I know you mentioned that 50mg was the standard dose and actually it is just 25mg, I dont know where everyone is getting this 50mg average dose as it is just 25mg a day.

My girlfriend has an Autoimmune disease and she was suggested to take much more than myself.
So, maybe we are all just diffrent and one shoe does not fit all.

In women DHEA converts into Testosterone.

 

[hackskii]

Well, DHEA can convert to estrogen, testosterone, progesterone, cortisone and the many other steroid hormones, as the body needs them.
There actually is not alot known about DHEA compared to the other hormones.


She has been complaining of weight gain lately.
I can't remember the dose she said she took but if I am not mistaken it was somewhere around 150-200mg a day of the pharmacuitical stuff.
She gets it from a compound pharmacy.
She is on HRT too.

When her hormones were out of whack, she was totally psycho. A real bear to be around.
Now she is pretty good.

 

[jboldman]

hmm, there is actually quite a bit known about dhea, at least there is a lot of research. admittedly as the attention focuses on different aspects, there are more questions and the need for more research.

It would be a mistake to think that except for very unusual situations, you are going to feel any different taking zero dhea or 100mg. Over the course of some time you might or might not be able to "feel" the difference.

I get the 50mg dose figure from an overwhelming concensus of the studies and reports that i have read. Naturally one size does not fit all and the only way to really know is to take blood tests and titrate accordingly.


jb

 

[hackskii]

Ok, so why delv on the upper end than the lower?
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!

Why more?

From what I have read 25mg is sufficient.
Would 50mg be better?

What sort of studies/reasoning make 50mg better than 25mg better?
Fat loss?
Immune system support?
You are grasping at straws.
Not to be challenging but I feel this is a personal issue and not fact based.

Give me some facts!
Hey, I have used more and used less.
I have used many things but not to take away from this debate but you seem to have a passion on this issue.
Enlighten me please.

Hell, maybe it is just me but I need something other than what you say.
I have my own reasons for thinking the way I do.

Are you a HRT DR?


Dude, more is not better!