TUDCA source?

[Bare Bear Muscle]

Can I please have recommendations for a good TUDCA source? I know it's sold as an RC and a dietary supplement. Lots of big supplement companies were caught selling underdosed whey protein, though. I have some from brawn, which seems like a good company. But who knows if they get a bad batch from china. I might try ID next.

Another option would be to get some pharm grade UDCA. I'm thinking that might be the safest way to go.

 

[puckhog]

I can't get you a TUDCA hook-up, but I can sell you a bag of apples (they are fire) and suggest you lay off the orals for a bit.

 

[Blkhrt]

I feel you on the bunk worries. Don't buy from black grizzly TUDCA no matter how good their prices are. They sent me something, it definitely was NOT tudca, and then when I called them out on it they claimed their supplier duped them. Sounded like bullshit to me. I got my money back and will never send them a dime again and tell everyone to stay away.

Powdercity is good and the last time I tried theirs it was def TUDCA as proven by the horrible horrible bitter bile salt taste. They are out of stock right now.

I have a Chinese source I'm not sure I can share, their prices are not good but they are legit and only ppl who have it in stock who I trust. you can PM me if you'd like. I will probably get accused of trying to shill now.

Wherever you buy from remember to taste the powder. It should be just absolutely disgustingly bitter and it should be very tough to dissolve in water.

I considered ordering a kilo and selling it in caps myself but the profit margins are pathetically low and I have no way to prevent from getting scammed by the overseas supplier. They will all sell me an overpriced sample for me to verify. But how will I be sure not to fall victim to the bait and switch? I might give it a go when I have a thousand bucks I can risk burning.

 

[Docd187123]

How about just not wasting your money on a supplement that doesn't work for AAS?

 

[Blkhrt]

How about just not wasting your money on a supplement that doesn't work for AAS?

Lol? How does TUDCA not work? It's been proven to prevent and cure choleostasis. There's peer reviewed medical studies showing it's effectiveness as reversing liver disorders. Keep pounding that milk thistle buddy.

Maybe explain to me why you think TUDCA doesnt work? I'm all ears. There are a lot of dumbasses on this board.

 

[Docd187123]

Lol? How does TUDCA not work? It's been proven to prevent and cure choleostasis. There's peer reviewed medical studies showing it's effectiveness as reversing liver disorders. Keep pounding that milk thistle buddy.

Maybe explain to me why you think TUDCA doesnt work? I'm all ears. There are a lot of dumbasses on this board.

Bc there is not a single proven compound that has shown to help prophylacticly with AAS induced hepatotoxicity.

Here are some posts by Dr. Scally on this matter.

Monitoring. There are NO supplements to decrease, prevent, eliminate, etc. liver changes.

For liver protection, WORTHLESS. If it makes you "feel" better, it's your money.

There is no need for confusion. Apparently, the clinical trial you reference is also at odds on the benefit. In these cases, there is some evidence for benefit.

In aggregate, the data suggest that ursodeoxycholic acid (UDCA) for the treatment of primary biliary cirrhosis (PBC) is associated with improvement in liver biochemical tests, a reduction in disease progression, and possibly transplant-free survival.

Several additional conclusions can be made from these data:
•UDCA appears to be more effective in patients with early disease.

•Patients with advanced PBC and complications of portal hypertension (eg, ascites or variceal bleeding) do not benefit from UDCA. Such patients should be considered for liver transplantation.

The thread is aimed at AAS induced liver changes, NOT obstructive jaundice or PBC. For AAS induced changes, I am unable to find any benefit as well as direct clinical experience showing none.

Again, I caution is translating study findings to those for AAS. This is by far the most common error in AAS forums.

It seems you are talking prophylactic or preventative treatment. I know of no studies for such a use. From numerous posts, this is a common reason for use. [Along this line, DeTox is no more than a scam.]

In very rare cases and I mean very very rare, there have been reports of AAS induced cholestasis. In fact, I posted on a case recently. Might this be effective? In that case, the treatment was discontinuation.

 

[bigpoppachump]

Yep and apparently we just aquired another dumbass lol

 

[Bare Bear Muscle]

Thanks tons for the info Blkhrt and others. Udca is used to treat cholestasis and bill roberts just recommended using it in a new article on the front page.

 

[Bare Bear Muscle]

An Eight-Week Steroid Cycle with Trenbolone and Dianabol

 

[Blkhrt]

Bc there is not a single proven compound that has shown to help prophylacticly with AAS induced hepatotoxicity.

Here are some posts by Dr. Scally on this matter.

How is oral AAS induced choleostasis rare? Isn't it the number one way your liver gets damaged through abusing orals? And if that is true, how is using TUDCA as a preventative to increase the ratio of non fat soluble bile in your liver in preparation for a damaging oral cycle not a very good way to reduce the damage from the inevitable level of reduced bile flow?

His argument makes no sense to me because he says AAS induced choleostasis is rare. I don't think it is. At all. It's the number one concern when taking damaging orals. I don't understand why he doesn't accept that. TUDCA works. And it works as a preventatives and as a restorer. To say it doesn't is simply untrue.

Yes, the liver can regenerate itself just fine without supplements or drugs. But if you are going to be slamming anadrol until you get lethargic and your poops start getting lighter you can bet having run TUDCA beforehand as a loading supplement will extend the length of time you can abuse your liver. The dr seems to forget that many people use steroids in a quite unsafe and damaging fashion to keep up with their body dysmorphia ideals.

 

[Docd187123]

How is oral AAS induced choleostasis rare? Isn't it the number one way your liver gets damaged through abusing orals? And if that is true, how is using TUDCA as a preventative to increase the ratio of non fat soluble bile in your liver in preparation for a damaging oral cycle not a very good way to reduce the damage from the inevitable level of reduced bile flow?

His argument makes no sense to me because he says AAS induced choleostasis is rare. I don't think it is. At all. It's the number one concern when taking damaging orals. I don't understand why he doesn't accept that. TUDCA works. And it works as a preventatives and as a restorer. To say it doesn't is simply untrue.

It's rare bc how many people have you read about in case studies or anecdotal reports on forums that have had to have been hospitalized for hepatotoxicity even when most people are megadosing orals? I've seen a handful of cases with I'd say millions of active users.

Beer and alcohol can raise LFT's just as much if not more in some cases. Do you suggest taking TUDCA every time you drink or even taking Tylenol?

The issue is also one of a prophylactic treatment vs treating a diagnosed issue. Just bc something treats an actual issue doesn't mean it can prevent it from happening. A simple analogy, Tylenol and Ibuprofen are taken regularly to treat headaches but they don't prevent headaches from occurring.

 

[Docd187123]

Thanks tons for the info Blkhrt and others. Udca is used to treat cholestasis and bill roberts just recommended using it in a new article on the front page.

I would re-read that article bc Bill Roberts is NOT recommending TUDCA.

 

[Blkhrt]

It's rare bc how many people have you read about in case studies or anecdotal reports on forums that have had to have been hospitalized for hepatotoxicity even when most people are megadosing orals? I've seen a handful of cases with I'd say millions of active users.

Beer and alcohol can raise LFT's just as much if not more in some cases. Do you suggest taking TUDCA every time you drink or even taking Tylenol?

The issue is also one of a prophylactic treatment vs treating a diagnosed issue. Just bc something treats an actual issue doesn't mean it can prevent it from happening. A simple analogy, Tylenol and Ibuprofen are taken regularly to treat headaches but they don't prevent headaches from occurring.

I just don't agree. I truly believe TUDCA will make a significant positive difference if you preload it in preparation for an oral cycle. It will lower the risk of damage suffered from the inevitable slowing down of bile flow. You might not get a total stoppage of flow (choleostasis) but rest assured flow will Be impaired to some degree and the liver will be taxed. If TUDCA is taken this damage will be lessened. Recovery will be slightly quicker. Liver values will stay closer to range.

Have you seen the doses some of these guys take? 80-100mg Anavar, whopping cycles of sdrol etc. Not exactly the same as taking Tylenol or drinking alcohol in reasonable amounts.


I think TUDCA is worth it. It should slightly lower your risk of liver cancer as well. Totally unproven by any study but the mechanism is there. I guess I will go on the conclusions i have drawn.

And yes, it does make me feel better. Maybe it's placebo, I don't think it is though. I had a minor case of drug induced choleostasis and after withdrawing the offending substance i recovered, but the moment I added TUDCA I realized a reduction in lethargy and eventually with or without the TUDCA i got better, can't say if definitely sped things up or not, but I think it did.

 

[Blkhrt]

I would re-read that article bc Bill Roberts is NOT recommending TUDCA.

Um no, I would re re read it mr doc187123 because he most definitely IS recommending it. He says it will help you more safely run a longer oral cycle, presumably with the same reasoning I put forth.

The doctor you quoted earlier is choosing to interpret the studies most technically and conservatively, and as AAS users we can all agree that we take what science teaches us and draw further conclusions applied to our somewhat extreme applications of these hormones. From the evidence and from my understanding of how TUDCA and udca work, I can confidently say without a doubt it's one of the better and more essential liver supplements.


The caveat is I don't think you should run it during your oral cycle. Pre and post only. There's too much specificity as far as half lives of methylated orals go to safely reccomend dosing parameters based on the fact that concurrent dosing can be harmful


There no way you can convince me TUDCA isn't helpful based on what we know about how it works as a non fat soluble bile salt. I simply don't agree with your or dr scallywags conclusions

You can argue that it's medical effect isn't up to par with it's price-- that is a valid point. It's too expensive. But that doesn't mean it don't work

 

[Blkhrt]

Yep and apparently we just aquired another dumbass lol

The doctors on meso are actually some of the worst sources of info. The doc178whatever here, dr Jim (annoying twat- does he even lift?), and now apparently dr scally. Most docs I meet are fucking goons anyways. Your ph d doesn't mean shit to me when the medical system is built on piles and piles of bulllshit

 

[bigpoppachump]

The doctors on meso are actually some of the worst sources of info. The doc178whatever here, dr Jim (annoying twat- does he even lift?), and now apparently dr scally. Most docs I meet are fucking goons anyways. Your ph d doesn't mean shit to me when the medical system is built on piles and piles of bulllshit

Well then I will assume you are basing your beliefs in tudca on nothing but bro science then correct? You know being how all doctors are goons and morons right? I could come in here with real life experience having had hep c for 10 years and trying all of these supplements to help liver values but it seems you only want one answer so I won't waste my time.

 

[Docd187123]

I just don't agree. I truly believe TUDCA will make a significant positive difference if you preload it in preparation for an oral cycle.

Wrong. It's been shown several times that TUDCA damages the liver when pre-loaded.

It will lower the risk of damage suffered from the inevitable slowing down of bile flow. You might not get a total stoppage of flow (choleostasis) but rest assured flow will Be impaired to some degree and the liver will be taxed. If TUDCA is taken this damage will be lessened.

Incorrect again. There is no evidence anywhere and evidence against showing TUDCA being a prophylactic agent.

Recovery will be slightly quicker.

Recovery is just fine without it in almost every case....

Liver values will stay closer to range.

Which has no no bearing on the actual outcome....

And also which liver values are you talking about? My money is on you thinking of the wrong ones.

Have you seen the doses some of these guys take? 80-100mg Anavar, whopping cycles of sdrol etc. Not exactly the same as taking Tylenol or drinking alcohol in reasonable amounts.

Neither is it like taking AAS in reasonable amounts. You can't point out the extreme use of one and compare it mild use of another, it doesn't work like that lol.

I think TUDCA is worth it. It should slightly lower your risk of liver cancer as well. Totally unproven by any study but the mechanism is there. I guess I will go on the conclusions i have drawn.

Bc hoards of steroid using bodybuilders are dying from liver cancer? The mechanism is there for protein to be stored as fat but we are talking about reality and in reality just bc a mechanism exists doesn't mean it actually happens that way much like protein never being stored as fat.

And yes, it does make me feel better.

Spend your money as you wish. I simply am trying to save you some. If you don't care to save some money that's fine too.

Maybe it's placebo, I don't think it is though. I had a minor case of drug induced choleostasis and after withdrawing the offending substance i recovered, but the moment I added TUDCA I realized a reduction in lethargy and eventually with or without the TUDCA i got better, can't say if definitely sped things up or not, but I think it did.

Placebo is one hell of a drug. It made wounded WWII soldiers, some of whom were missing arms and legs, believe that saline solution reduced their pain like morphine.

 

[Docd187123]

Um no, I would re re read it mr doc187123 because he most definitely IS recommending it. He says it will help you more safely run a longer oral cycle, presumably with the same reasoning I put forth.

The doctor you quoted earlier is choosing to interpret the studies most technically and conservatively, and as AAS users we can all agree that we take what science teaches us and draw further conclusions applied to our somewhat extreme applications of these hormones. From the evidence and from my understanding of how TUDCA and udca work, I can confidently say without a doubt it's one of the better and more essential liver supplements.


The caveat is I don't think you should run it during your oral cycle. Pre and post only. There's too much specificity as far as half lives of methylated orals go to safely reccomend dosing parameters based on the fact that concurrent dosing can be harmful


There no way you can convince me TUDCA isn't helpful based on what we know about how it works as a non fat soluble bile salt. I simply don't agree with your or dr scallywags conclusions

You can argue that it's medical effect isn't up to par with it's price-- that is a valid point. It's too expensive. But that doesn't mean it don't work

Great so you've just proved to me several things:

1) your reading comprehension skills are lacking bc Bill Roberts says TUDCA "but it’s possible it may help". Since you don't know any better I'll help: that's not a recommendation. That's SPECULATION.

2) dude you can't even understand a layman's article by Bill Roberts that uses words with 3 syllables or less what makes you think you have any chance of convincing me you have any understanding of how TUDCA works any more than my parakeet does?

3) so you wish to believe Bill Roberts, he's a great guy don't get me wrong but not a doctor, over a doctor who has treated thousands of patients using steroids??? Wow, just wow.

4) you proved your confidence level is lower than Kim Kardashian's standards bc there isn't any evidence of prophylactic benefit for AAS induced hepatotoxicity nor are there enough cases to warrant such treatment besides ensuring a low/short dose/duration and discontinuing an offending when when levels are unacceptable.

5) you also proved you have literally no understanding of TUDCA. You don't recommend it during a run but before and after. If you had done ANY TYPE of research you'd see that using TUDCA BEFORE AAS actually induces liver toxicity which is the very thing yore trying to recent. Thank you for that laugh.

6) saying there's no way I can convince you means you're closed minded to actual facts and you already have your mind made up. That's the sign of a fool.

To quote Benjamin Franklin:

"Being ignorant is not so much a shame, as being unwilling to learn."

 

[Docd187123]

The doctors on meso are actually some of the worst sources of info. The doc178whatever here, dr Jim (annoying twat- does he even lift?), and now apparently dr scally. Most docs I meet are fucking goons anyways. Your ph d doesn't mean shit to me when the medical system is built on piles and piles of bulllshit

I'm not a doctor. That's my username.

So we shouldn't believe an MD, not a PhD , but we should believe you? GTFOH lol

 

[Blkhrt]

Just ordered 20g of TUDCA to spite you bro

Explain to me in parakeet terms why replacing bile salt with non fat soluble TUDCA in preparation for the inevitable degree of bile flow reduction that one on an oral AAS cycle will experience, is a bad idea?

The studies showing concurrent TUDCA usage with alcohol increases liver damage isn't the same thing is pre loading TUDCA for a few weeks before an oral cycles during which you drop it entirely.

Yes, many docs I meet have a simple and flawed understanding of the literature. You keep telling me TUDCA doesn't work but i don't understand how it won't work because you haven't told me why ? Meanwhile I'm telling you that during periods of choleostasis (if you think reduction of bile flow in oral
AAS users is rare you are deluded, it doesn't have to go so far as jaundice to be a degree of lessened bile flow) it's impossible for me to believe having less fat soluble bile will reduce the amount of liver damage you'll experience.

You seem unable to draw extended conclusions from the available studies, and like most doctors, have stated explicitly that it doesn't work because there is no specific study that measures the outcomes of oral AAS use and TUDCA.

Why can't you understand the conclusion that replacing a fat soluble bile salt with a non fat double form thru TUDCA supplemention is going to be a good thing when an oral AAS user/abuser (common bodybuilding dosages are in the abuse range) suffers from impaired bile flow? It's a simple concept. Just because your doctor buddies can't see that doesn't mean it's untrue.

Preloading with TUDCA and dropping it before you take an oral is not going to hurt you. It makes no sense why it would. Is there actually a study specifically using steroids that says preloading will? If you are going to reference me the study with alcohol and concurrent dosing don't bother. Preloading is not concurrent. So I don't believe there is.

You've done nothing to prove your position other than tell me I'm wrong. I have explained why I think it works and instead of challenging that principle you simply tell me I'm wrong wrong wrong. You aren't convincing me by telling me your fave doctor butt buddy says he's right and everyone else is wrong. Many doctors are morons. That is all.