WADA funded research project - could you help?

[Eman]

This is very unrelated to the topic at hand, however it's within the realm and this thread needs some help due to the lack of substance.

If anyone is interested in speaking with a researcher that is actually unbiased, send me a PM and I'll put you in touch. I would rather not post publicly about the topic of their current research, but it's not currently drug related unless you want to discuss that with them.

 

[Millard]

There is a different version of the same paper on the WADA site, kind of unusual... Is it supposed to be a summarized version or did they edit this? Attached.

The WADA version of the Essex University grant confirmed your suspicions. The researchers are going to use the collected psychological data and "use this information to reduce doping intentions". So, the explicit bias and goal of the research is "anti-doping". Not "doping education". Not "harm reduction".

Obective: To use collected psychological data "to develop a new value based anti-doping training programme that uses the new measure to identify the dominant personal ethic and attempts to use this information to reduce doping intentions."

Thanks @Eman for finding this \/ \/



This little bit wasn't included on the Essex website.

 

[Silentlemon1011]

The WADA version of the Essex University grant confirmed your suspicions. The researchers are going to use the collected psychological data and "use this information to reduce doping intentions". So, the explicit bias and goal of the research is "anti-doping". Not "doping education". Not "harm reduction".

Thanks @Eman for finding this \/ \/

View attachment 128938

Thanks @Millard Baker
Thanks @Eman


Turns out your suspicions were 100% on point.
He is collecting information to trash us and use what he wants.

Get fucked Essex

 

[ResearcherEssex]

Hi All,

Wow, seems you've all been very busy discussing this thread! It's great to get a real feel for what you all think. I'm just a research student so it's quite funny to think you believe I have that much power in talking to WADA and telling them to get "f***ed" - I don't even have a contact! I'd also like to add, that many of you wrongly presumed I'm male - in fact, I'm female! Crazy right? WADA are funding the study and does ultimately have a say on what we can do with the results. The current project has three main objectives and involves lots of different researchers. The first (which is this study - the only one I'm involved with) is to explore the moral development of athletes and stakeholders to establish how individuals vary in their ethical frameworks. The data collected helps us to develop our understanding more broadly as researchers. We really are interested in hearing more about the personal experiences that led you to take the step into using a prohibited substance when many don't, but fully accept that you can tell us to F*** off, like I said in a previous post everyone is their own person! Some of you have asked why I even bothered coming on the forum... Well this particular forum was suggested to me by the author of this paper, who has previously worked with members of various forums (incl forum.bodybuilding and bluelight) to publish the following paper: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/2159676X.2013.766809 .

Hope this clears up so loose end! All the best and stay safe!

 

[Silentlemon1011]

Hi All,

Wow, seems you've all been very busy discussing this thread! It's great to get a real feel for what you all think. I'm just a research student so it's quite funny to think you believe I have that much power in talking to WADA and telling them to get "f***ed" - I don't even have a contact! I'd also like to add, that many of you wrongly presumed I'm male - in fact, I'm female! Crazy right? WADA are funding the study and does ultimately have a say on what we can do with the results. The current project has three main objectives and involves lots of different researchers. The first (which is this study - the only one I'm involved with) is to explore the moral development of athletes and stakeholders to establish how individuals vary in their ethical frameworks. The data collected helps us to develop our understanding more broadly as researchers. We really are interested in hearing more about the personal experiences that led you to take the step into using a prohibited substance when many don't, but fully accept that you can tell us to F*** off, like I said in a previous post everyone is their own person! Some of you have asked why I even bothered coming on the forum... Well this particular forum was suggested to me by the author of this paper, who has previously worked with members of various forums (incl forum.bodybuilding and bluelight) to publish the following paper: https://slack-redir.net/link?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tandfonline.com%2Fdoi%2Fabs%2F10.1080%2F2159676X.2013.766809 (https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/2159676X.2013.766809) .

Hope this clears up so loose end! All the best and stay safe!

Male or Female is meaningless.

You didnt address a single thing that our membership or Millard were concerned about.

You have an end goal and conclusion predetermined.

That's not a study.

Thats fishing for specific phrases and answers that will reinforce your predetermined end goal.

So I'll ask once again...

If you already have come up with your conclusion and your just looking for language to back it...

Why not just hire a creative writer and call it a day?

 

[ResearcherEssex]

Male or Female is meaningless.

You didnt address a single thing that our membership or Millard were concerned about.

You have an end goal and conclusion predetermined.

That's not a study.

Thats fishing for specific phrases and answers that will reinforce your predetermined end goal.

So I'll ask once again...

If you already have come up with your conclusion and your just looking for language to back it...

Why not just hire a creative writer and call it a day?

I don't think it's meaningless at all. We don't know what our end conclusion is hence the need for research... I don't know why some people use PEDs... It could be for cultural reasons, financial reasons, personal reasons, moral obligations may differ from one person to the next. There's a variety of factors that may lead an individual to use PEDs. Due to the vast array of differences its impossible to form a conclusion without actually conducting any research.

 

[Human_backhoe]

My point is that is how can we trust a study funded by people who have made it very clear they are against us. Specifically this site is on their radar. Doing things like gathering our information so arrests can be made? What kind a response did you expect? I understand you have to get paid, that's the way the world works. Don't expect us to help WADA who has a agenda and has input into how the data is "interpreted ".

WADA are funding the study and does ultimately have a say on what we can do with the results.

This is why the welcome has not been friendly. You call it research but the outcome and how it will be used is already determined.

 

[ResearcherEssex]

My point is that is how can we trust a study funded by people who have made it very clear they are against us. Specifically this site is on their radar. Doing things like gathering our information so arrests can be made? What kind a response did you expect? I understand you have to get paid, that's the way the world works. Don't expect us to help WADA who has a agenda and has input into how the data is "interpreted ".
This is why the welcome has not been friendly.

As previously mentions EVERYTHING is anonymous - we will have no idea who you are, as a result, there are NO repercussions. It's stated in our ethics, absolutely no harm to you or your job or your sport.

 

[Human_backhoe]

As previously mentions EVERYTHING is anonymous - we will have no idea who you are, as a result, there are NO repercussions. It's stated in our ethics, absolutely no harm to you or your job or your sport.

Unfortunately I think you are missing the point. Why would we help the people who are trying to have us shutdown and arrested?

Also why contribute when the outcome has already been determined by the funding? This is not pure research. Wada has a say in how the data is used . It is not unbiased or impartial.

 

[Silentlemon1011]

I don't think it's meaningless at all. We don't know what our end conclusion is hence the need for research... I don't know why some people use PEDs... It could be for cultural reasons, financial reasons, personal reasons, moral obligations may differ from one person to the next. There's a variety of factors that may lead an individual to use PEDs. Due to the vast array of differences its impossible to form a conclusion without actually conducting any research.

Incorrect
You know what your conclusion is.

You are looking for langauge to prove it.

Your conclusion/end goal is to develop an anti PED curriculum.

You're just looking for information to fit/fill in that narrative.

To put it VERY simply.

What you're doing here is the equivalent of the following...

A large tobacco firm hires a research company to come up with and interview elderly smokers who do NOT have cancers in an attempt to prove that the dangers of smoking are over rated.

Or vice versa if you will.

You know what you want to prove, you're just looking for a way to prove it.

That's not research

 

[Human_backhoe]

I find this behavior harmful. Every professional athlete uses PED's . So to avoid getting caught they turn to more harmful unproven substances like designer prohormones that ruin people's lives. Superdrol was for sale at "Nutrition " shops. Being from the UK in your line of work you must know the harm done by stuff like this?

So yet again. Why help Wada when their behavior is harmful to the athletes?

 

[ResearcherEssex]

I find this behavior harmful. Every professional athlete uses PED's . So to avoid getting caught they turn to more harmful unproven substances like designer prohormones that ruin people's lives. Superdrol was for sale at "Nutrition " shops. Being from the UK in your line of work you must know the harm done by stuff like this?

So yet again. Why help Wada when their behavior is harmful to the athletes?

I agree - it is very harmful! Hence why we hope to create education programmes which discuss the potential harm of doping, what may lead you to dope and how you could potentially overcome this. The world of drugs is a very scary place and can do such harm to your body that you might not know of until 20 years down the line. My primary area of research is neurodevelopmental disorders, mental health and well-being. My masters dissertation was on the long term consequences of the drug called mephedrone - again a relatively new drug that only became popular in 2010 but could have significant negative consequences long term! My undergrad focused on Schizophrenia and Psychosis. It's well established that drug-induced psychosis can occur. So whilst doping is not within my expertise, drugs and their effect on mental health is!

This is the outcome of the other WADA funded project that my supervisor was involved with: Boardley, I., Smith, AL., Mills, JP., Grix, J., Wynne, C. and Wilkins, L., (2018). Development of Moral Disengagement and Self-Regulatory Efficacy Assessments Relevant to Doping in Sport and Exercise. Again, this specific project is funded by WADA as they are the main funder for this kind of research.

 

[Millard]

WADA are funding the study and does ultimately have a say on what we can do with the results. The current project has three main objectives and involves lots of different researchers. The first (which is this study - the only one I'm involved with) is to explore the moral development of athletes and stakeholders to establish how individuals vary in their ethical frameworks. The data collected helps us to develop our understanding more broadly as researchers.

Thank you for answering my question. This forum was designed to discuss, debate and learn. Not so much to tell people to fuck off if we dislike or disagree with them. So I hope will indulge me in my questions.

First of all, I enjoy seeing academic researchers take an interest in the sports and bodybuilding subculture especially the smaller subset of steroid users.

I also appreciate how difficult it is to obtain funding for social science research.

I read Dr. Mills research page with interest. I am also interested in why and how people arrive at different attitudes regarding AAS use and how it informs their decisions to use AAS.

I appreciate the fact that you are not approaching doping/AAS use as inherently wrong. As a layperson, I am interested in reading more about the pluralistic approaches such as Moral Foundations Theory.

It sounds like this is the focus of your particular research. That's cool.

HOWEVER, the WADA funding simply sucks. I haven't spoken with a single researcher that is ok with the fact that "WADA... does ultimately have a say on what we can do with the results".

There are some ethical issues inherent in this. It probably has not been discussed much with WADA per se but it has been widely discussed in medical research when pharmaceutical companies fund the research and determine what can be done with the results.

Furthermore, the intense pressure on researchers to publish, publish, publish creates an incentive to produce results and conclusions that will appease the money men and result in publication. Obviously, this is why researchers must disclose such affiliations.

My questions are:

(1) As an academic researcher, how can you reconcile the fact that WADA "does ultimately have a say on what we can do with the results"?
--
(2) How does/will WADA funding impact your design, discussions and conclusions? Or how do you prevent WADA funding from having such an impact?
--
(3) What is the specific wording of the WADA grant as it relates to what can be published and the extent of WADA's input?
--
I must admit that the following is the most disappointing and disturbing aspect for me. I have a question about the third objective of your research group's project. Specifically, this statement:

"...[T]o develop a new value based anti-doping training programme that uses the new measure to identify the dominant personal ethic and attempts to use this information to reduce doping intentions."​

(4) Do you feel you have abandoned the role of an objective researcher by using your research to promote the political agenda of WADA? Have you become an advocate of a specific political agenda rather than an independent researcher?

I realize that the third objective is not the focus of your particular research, but hopefully one of your colleagues or even Dr. Mills could address it.
--
(5) Finally, I find it ironic that, at the outset, you would take a pluralistic approach to morality when studying the topic of doping. However, the predetermined end goal of the research appears to be promoting an absolutist approach to morality. Obviously, you know that WADA's approach involves the latter.

How do you reconcile this as a scientific researcher?

Thank you for your time.

 

[Millard]

Well this particular forum was suggested to me by the author of this paper, who has previously worked with members of various forums (incl forum.bodybuilding and bluelight) to publish the following paper: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/2159676X.2013.766809 .

This is the outcome of the other WADA funded project that my supervisor was involved with: Boardley, I., Smith, AL., Mills, JP., Grix, J., Wynne, C. and Wilkins, L., (2018). Development of Moral Disengagement and Self-Regulatory Efficacy Assessments Relevant to Doping in Sport and Exercise. Again, this specific project is funded by WADA as they are the main funder for this kind of research.

Could you please share the PDFs for these papers?

 

[Eman]

I'm just a research student so it's quite funny to think you believe I have that much power in talking to WADA and telling them to get "f***ed" - I don't even have a contact!

This was not a serious request. It's funny that you find it funny though.

I do have to give you credit, coming here, although unsuccessful as it's going to be, was a creative idea. No clue who that researcher you cited is.

I don't know a lot about ethics committees but I honestly don't know how they approve this stuff, especially with the wording of the grant in mind. What you will achieve is not educational, it will be propaganda.

With all that said, I would fill out your questionnaire but I don't fit the criteria. I'm not a competitive athlete and neither is the majority of this forum, and if they are they compete in completely untested sports like bodybuilding and powerlifting. We've had some college athletes and doping was not unusual and could be openly discussed with coaching staff. If they are here, they're extraordinarily few and far between.

My point though is this, through your research and WADA's subsequent actions, you will affect athletes from the Olympics all the way to the gym rats working out to improve self image. Your research and WADA's propaganda will trickle all the way down until it affects John Doe who just wants a prescription for testosterone because his testicles are shot and he just wants to fuck his wife again... We're not talking about an amphetamine derivative like mephedrone, but a drug like that will be more quickly prescribed than a RX for testosterone replacement with this constant barrage of propaganda from WADA and USADA.

 

[JasonJessie]

WADA has lobbyists and a history that have directly impacted laws and availability of prescription AAS.

Instead of focusing on safety they're just another organization that drives it underground and makes it more unsafe even though use is at an all time high.

As for morality. Sports really aren't important, they are entertainment both for the athlete and spectator, they aren't essential for our existence.

So we have to ask ourselves which is more immoral or unethical, to use PED, AAS. Or to outlaw everything, demonize millions of people, create laws where people are given lifetime felony records, where property and assets can be seized.

It's not a moral question. It's a question of victimless crime. If you can't produce someone that I've directly harmed through physical contact or property that I've taken or willfully damaged that doesn't belong to me, then there has been no crime. I should be able to do what I want to my body, that includes having large quantities of these drugs, the ability to transport these drugs, the ability to sell them.

The only evil is those government agencies that think they own my body, deciding what I can and can't put in my body and if I break these rules I will be subject to sadistic laws created by people that are pure evil fucks.

So it's simple, cut all funding for the DEA, FDA, all funding for LE that has to do with drugs. Get rid of WADA or any other agency that has money to piss away terrorizing people. Allow people to take whatever they want, if you can't compete then that's your problem.

Lots of things are unfair in life, some people are born with extremely high IQ giving them access to incredible opportunities. Sometimes two Olympians get married and have a baby, this child grows to become a super athlete thanks to a genetic advantage.

We know there are genetic freaks that have very high VO2 Max, this isn't something you can train for, you either have it or you don't. These athletes go on to win gold after gold, to dominate every competition they enter. Is this fair, I mean you didn't work for it, you were born with it.

What about someone born into a wealthy family, educated in top private schools and sent to an elite university and given all the money in the world to excel. Meanwhile some other kid that is just as smart is born into poverty with abusive parents and has no opportunities.

There's nothing in life that is fair. Using PED are really low on my list of concerns, there other things in life that we should be concerned with, things that have far greater importance to society as a whole. Like why are we outlawing everything, putting millions of non-violent people in prison, destroying and pissing away their lives just to make a point of morality.

As for my morality. I'm an atheist, anarchist, I despise all religions and all forms of government. No one should have any say in what I put in my body, what I own, what I sell, what I think, what I say, what I believe. If someone does egress on person or property than you deal with them, but as long as I keep my hands to myself, I have done nothing wrong.

As for anabolic steroids. They're done for many reasons, but the bulk are used for non-competitive reasons. Most of them are just guys that want to get stronger, want more energy, want to balance their hormones in such a way that they feel good throughout the day so they can get their work done. Most people using AAS are educated, hard working people just like anyone else, we're just stronger, have more energy and endurance, if someone wants that as well, they can do what we do or not, it's their choice.

As for aggression and steroids, I've found them to be completely opposite of that. I'm more mellow and relaxed, never irritable, the problems of the world just roll off, been using gear for almost 20 years, I've never harmed anyone in my life, don't plan to. I consider AAS to be life enhancing in every respect and since I only have one life to live, I should be able to decide what I do with it.

 

[Test_Subject]

Calling something "academic research" when it's designed to support a predetermined conclusion is beyond intellectually dishonest.

Let's call it what it is: you're being paid to dig up dirt on people so WADA can use it to more effectively target people who use PEDs and push their agenda.

 

[janoshik]

While understanding the desire for a level field in professional sports, all my encounters with WADA left me deeply disgusted.

You all have assessed this perfectly.

 

[JasonJessie]

WADA like any organization exists to get a paycheck.

Just like the war on drugs is described based on cash value. So when there's a bust they describe it not that they removed drugs from the community, because they don't give a shit about that. What they announce is that they seized X millions of dollars, cars, boats, homes, property, land, bank accounts, and then at the end of the list they mention drugs that they really don't give a shit about because they know it won't even put a dent in the supply.

Get this straight, you will never and I mean never remove drugs from this world. If people want them and there's money to be made you will always have them. You can shut down all the websites you want, the markets will pop up the next day on the darknet and you can play an endless game of whack-a-mole of which you won't win.

I worked in healthcare for 25 years, not one time did I ever see anyone come in that was suffering from using anabolic steroids and I lived in a large city and I spent many hours in the gym with these guys that used gear, the problem has been grossly misrepresented.

What did I see in those 25 years, I saw a lot of morbid obesity/heart disease caused by the standard american diet and no exercise, I saw smokers with COPD, Cancers of various sorts, a lots of other disease states, but not even once did I run into a body builder or any other athlete suffering from the effects of steroids.

So why the hell is our community under threat of conviction, why are we demonized when most of our community is pretty damn smart, we seek out lab testing for our raws and finished oils, we do regular lab testing on ourselves to keep ourselves out of harms way. This community is damn impressive if you ask me.

What's not impressive is when an organization like WADA wants grown adults to take a boy-scout purity pledge that we won't taint our sacred bodies with anabolic steroids as if that's gonna make all that is wrong with the world suddenly right.

 

[MisterSuperGod]

WADA like any organization exists to get a paycheck.

Just like the war on drugs is described based on cash value. So when there's a bust they describe it not that they removed drugs from the community, because they don't give a shit about that. What they announce is that they seized X millions of dollars, cars, boats, homes, property, land, bank accounts, and then at the end of the list they mention drugs that they really don't give a shit about because they know it won't even put a dent in the supply.

Get this straight, you will never and I mean never remove drugs from this world. If people want them and there's money to be made you will always have them. You can shut down all the websites you want, the markets will pop up the next day on the darknet and you can play an endless game of whack-a-mole of which you won't win.

I worked in healthcare for 25 years, not one time did I ever see anyone come in that was suffering from using anabolic steroids and I lived in a large city and I spent many hours in the gym with these guys that used gear, the problem has been grossly misrepresented.

What did I see in those 25 years, I saw a lot of morbid obesity/heart disease caused by the standard american diet and no exercise, I saw smokers with COPD, Cancers of various sorts, a lots of other disease states, but not even once did I run into a body builder or any other athlete suffering from the effects of steroids.

So why the hell is our community under threat of conviction, why are we demonized when most of our community is pretty damn smart, we seek out lab testing for our raws and finished oils, we do regular lab testing on ourselves to keep ourselves out of harms way. This community is damn impressive if you ask me.

What's not impressive is when an organization like WADA wants grown adults to take a boy-scout purity pledge that we won't taint our sacred bodies with anabolic steroids as if that's gonna make all that is wrong with the world suddenly right.

Handle #4. Why'd you dispatch the last one?