weight gain etc.

[ironhardempress]

Ok, so I'm starting week 6 of my Primo cycle. I have been tracking my calories/macros MOST of the time. I'm not in prep so I am not stressed about it every day (like, I was in Dallas this weekend and Sat. was a cheat day). I am up to 153 lbs on the scale this a.m. That is the most i have ever weighed in my life (remember, i was a distance runner for years and hovered between 130-135) I am 5' 10". I know i gained muscle--i see it, and i feel it, but i also know I have gained some fat. Now, i realize that is normal but I am really ready to get lean without sacrificing muscle. How is that achieved? I have avoided doing cardio just because i burn off muscle so easily. I eat clean all the time, and when i say clean i mean no bread, no pasta, no fast food (I never ate that crap anyway), no junk food (ditto for that), no sugar (double ditto). When I use IIFYM to calculate caloric needs that my bmr is 1367, my TDEE is 1974 and if i want to gain muscle i need 2171. I had used another calculator that told me I needed 2400 which I think is too much and that's why i gained so fast. My other concern is that experience with my first Primo cycle is that if I dont gain enough weight I will lose the muscle gains I made pretty quickly and i really want to preserve everything I can, naturally. I am working hard in the gym, 6 days a week. Some days heavy, some days light. If I dial my cals back to around 2100-2200 will I continue to gain muscle but lose fat? My macros are set at 40:30:30. I have 6 weeks to go in this cycle. Sorry for the long post, but I really need advice because I am trying to do this right. I plan to compete in May 2017. Thanks in advance. Oh, and Wendylifts I am following your progress as well with interest!

 

[Blue-bell-78]

So

Ok, so I'm starting week 6 of my Primo cycle. I have been tracking my calories/macros MOST of the time. I'm not in prep so I am not stressed about it every day (like, I was in Dallas this weekend and Sat. was a cheat day). I am up to 153 lbs on the scale this a.m. That is the most i have ever weighed in my life (remember, i was a distance runner for years and hovered between 130-135) I am 5' 10". I know i gained muscle--i see it, and i feel it, but i also know I have gained some fat. Now, i realize that is normal but I am really ready to get lean without sacrificing muscle. How is that achieved? I have avoided doing cardio just because i burn off muscle so easily. I eat clean all the time, and when i say clean i mean no bread, no pasta, no fast food (I never ate that crap anyway), no junk food (ditto for that), no sugar (double ditto). When I use IIFYM to calculate caloric needs that my bmr is 1367, my TDEE is 1974 and if i want to gain muscle i need 2171. I had used another calculator that told me I needed 2400 which I think is too much and that's why i gained so fast. My other concern is that experience with my first Primo cycle is that if I dont gain enough weight I will lose the muscle gains I made pretty quickly and i really want to preserve everything I can, naturally. I am working hard in the gym, 6 days a week. Some days heavy, some days light. If I dial my cals back to around 2100-2200 will I continue to gain muscle but lose fat? My macros are set at 40:30:30. I have 6 weeks to go in this cycle. Sorry for the long post, but I really need advice because I am trying to do this right. I plan to compete in May 2017. Thanks in advance. Oh, and Wendylifts I am following your progress as well with interest!

sorry i cant advice you as I am only a first timer on anavar but im really interested in your thread. I too am hoping to compete early next year. Good luck with ur thread

 

[Wendylifts]

Ok, so I'm starting week 6 of my Primo cycle. I have been tracking my calories/macros MOST of the time. I'm not in prep so I am not stressed about it every day (like, I was in Dallas this weekend and Sat. was a cheat day). I am up to 153 lbs on the scale this a.m. That is the most i have ever weighed in my life (remember, i was a distance runner for years and hovered between 130-135) I am 5' 10". I know i gained muscle--i see it, and i feel it, but i also know I have gained some fat. Now, i realize that is normal but I am really ready to get lean without sacrificing muscle. How is that achieved? I have avoided doing cardio just because i burn off muscle so easily. I eat clean all the time, and when i say clean i mean no bread, no pasta, no fast food (I never ate that crap anyway), no junk food (ditto for that), no sugar (double ditto). When I use IIFYM to calculate caloric needs that my bmr is 1367, my TDEE is 1974 and if i want to gain muscle i need 2171. I had used another calculator that told me I needed 2400 which I think is too much and that's why i gained so fast. My other concern is that experience with my first Primo cycle is that if I dont gain enough weight I will lose the muscle gains I made pretty quickly and i really want to preserve everything I can, naturally. I am working hard in the gym, 6 days a week. Some days heavy, some days light. If I dial my cals back to around 2100-2200 will I continue to gain muscle but lose fat? My macros are set at 40:30:30. I have 6 weeks to go in this cycle. Sorry for the long post, but I really need advice because I am trying to do this right. I plan to compete in May 2017. Thanks in advance. Oh, and Wendylifts I am following your progress as well with interest!

I don't know the correct answer to this. I know I've been trying to cut on primo and have been eating around 1200-1500 Cals -ish. I know that my body is recomping some. Esp my upper body. So while idk if I'm putting on lbm what I've got does seem to be hardening up and when I'm in the gym I get really vascular.


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[MrRippedZilla]

If your TDEE is 1974+ and you plan on consuming 2100-2200 then no, you won't lose any noticeable fat. As awesome as AAS is, it doesn't eliminate the basics of energy balance.

If your looking to recomp, then setting cals at around maintenance is a good place to start - you can always adjust along the way.
Keep protein at around 0.8-0.9g/lb, fat at 0.4-0.5g/lb and everything else from carbs. Nothing too complicated here.

Beyond that, your background as an endurance athlete is, IMO, going to be the main factor working against you when it comes to keeping the gains. Endurance athletes in general are not good at holding on to muscle mass due to the genetic adaptations that occur over the years of training within that style.
On cycle its not too big of an issue but off cycle...I don't see any workaround I'm afraid, just got to settle for what you can get.

 

[CensoredBoardsSuck]

Endurance athletes in general are not good at holding on to muscle mass due to the genetic adaptations that occur over the years of training within that style.

There are no genetic adaptations that occur from endurance training or any other training. Genetic adaptation is an inheritable genetic change that occurs in a population over generations. IOW, genetic adaptation occurs as a result of natural selection. The word you're looking for is adjustment.

That said, with the example you cited, I agree that active endurance athletes have difficulty building and maintaining muscle mass, but what evidence do you have that the adjustments acquired through endurance training are permanent, and will affect one's ability to hold muscle mass, long after the endurance training has ended?

 

[MrRippedZilla]

There are no genetic adaptations that occur from endurance training or any other training. Genetic adaptation is an inheritable genetic change that occurs in a population over generations. IOW, genetic adaptation occurs as a result of natural selection. The word you're looking for is adjustment.

That said, with the example you cited, I agree that active endurance athletes have difficulty building and maintaining muscle mass, but what evidence do you have that the adjustments acquired through endurance training are permanent, and will affect one's ability to hold muscle mass, long after the endurance training has ended?

Ergh, man I'm really not in the mood for semantics.
I've never heard it described as "genetic adjustment" and none of the training literature uses that term. Plenty refer to it as genetic adaptation though, see for example - http://sport1.uibk.ac.at/lehre/burtscher/Coffey2007.pdf
Training adaptation in itself involves a change in genetic expression. That's how you end up with the morphological & metabolic changes that occur with endurance training such as enhanced mitochondrial biogenesis, fast-to-slow fibre-type transformation and substrate metabolisms.
Now let's move on from this boredom please.

My evidence comes from actually working with endurance athletes.
I tend to find that the adaptations from endurance training are slow to occur and dissolve. I never said it was a permanent effect.
Considering the OP has been an endurance athlete for 20+ years and has only recently transitioned to more traditional hypertrophy training (1 year or so according to her intro on UG)...I doubt that these adaptations have ceased.
I'm also assuming that she was pretty good at endurance events - no one does something they suck at for 20 years - which indicates underlying genetic factors (outside of any training adaptation) at play.

As far as the literature goes, we're looking for data on long time endurance athletes who've transitioned into strength/hypertrophy training and have had their genetic/molecular level adaptations monitored both during their time as an endurance athlete and now as strength athletes. AFAIK, this data doesn't exist
Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, as I'm sure your well aware.

 

[ironhardempress]

ok, semantics aside--If i just eat basically my TDEE will I gain muscle? THis is my goal. I must gain muscle. I realize when "bulking" you gain some fat along with the muscle, but I feel like i have gained all the fat i "need" to gain. Anything more will be difficult to deal with in the future. I also do not want to lose the muscle i have gained. Gain muscle, lose fat. Of course if i knew he secret to this I woudl be a freakin millionaire. HA HA.

 

[CensoredBoardsSuck]

ok, semantics aside--If i just eat basically my TDEE will I gain muscle? THis is my goal.

If your diet is on point and your lifts are progressing - meaning you're getting stronger every session - you will gain muscle.

Gaining some fat is a necessary evil if you want to put on muscle, at least for most people. But don't let that discourage you. Fat is a lot easier to lose than muscle is to gain.

 

[MrRippedZilla]

ok, semantics aside--If i just eat basically my TDEE will I gain muscle? THis is my goal. I must gain muscle. I realize when "bulking" you gain some fat along with the muscle, but I feel like i have gained all the fat i "need" to gain. Anything more will be difficult to deal with in the future. I also do not want to lose the muscle i have gained. Gain muscle, lose fat. Of course if i knew he secret to this I woudl be a freakin millionaire. HA HA.

On cycle, yes

 

[Millard]

That said, with the example you cited, I agree that active endurance athletes have difficulty building and maintaining muscle mass, but what evidence do you have that the adjustments acquired through endurance training are permanent, and will affect one's ability to hold muscle mass, long after the endurance training has ended?

My evidence comes from actually working with endurance athletes.
I tend to find that the adaptations from endurance training are slow to occur and dissolve. I never said it was a permanent effect.
Considering the OP has been an endurance athlete for 20+ years and has only recently transitioned to more traditional hypertrophy training (1 year or so according to her intro on UG)...I doubt that these adaptations have ceased.
I'm also assuming that she was pretty good at endurance events - no one does something they suck at for 20 years - which indicates underlying genetic factors (outside of any training adaptation) at play.

As far as the literature goes, we're looking for data on long time endurance athletes who've transitioned into strength/hypertrophy training and have had their genetic/molecular level adaptations monitored both during their time as an endurance athlete and now as strength athletes. AFAIK, this data doesn't exist
Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, as I'm sure your well aware.

This is a fascinating question. I always assumed, based primarily on my own n=1 and a few other anecdotal reports, that the muscle gains would be more pronounced in an individual transitioning from endurance training --> hypertrophy training. I went from 5 years running on average 50 miles/week (endurance training) to 5 years averaging <5 miles/week (hypertrophy training) while my bodyweight soared almost 100lbs. I attributed this responsiveness to years of suppressed bodyweight as a consequence of endurance training.

 

[ironhardempress]

On cycle, yes

Ok, but my most burning question is will I retain the muscle i gain on cycle if I just eat my TDEE AFTER i go off cycle? See, what happened to me last time is I went on my first cycle ever, gained 8 lbs, much of which was muscle, then when I went off-cycle i went on vacation out of the country to get married, probably was not eating near enough, and hardly worked out (there was no gym there to speak of). So, if I keep up my eating and working out after my cycle has ended, theoretically I should keep most of the muscle i have gained, correct?

 

[Fitdiamond]

On cycle, yes

Sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone but I'm calling complete BS on that. I've been on show prep for 7 months. 5 of those months was bulking. I was able to lower my body fat with eating what was on my bulk meal plan and gain muscle all without gear. Now that I'm in the final stages of prep I've incorporated fasted cardio and post workout cardio with my new meal plan and I'm leaning out very nicely while still making gains. And again I'll say, this is all without gear. Granted, I have a really bad ass coach who knows his shit and I've been sticking to it for the most part. Also, I know just because that works for me doesn't mean it will work for you.

 

[MrRippedZilla]

This is a fascinating question. I always assumed, based primarily on my own n=1 and a few other anecdotal reports, that the muscle gains would be more pronounced in an individual transitioning from endurance training --> hypertrophy training. I went from 5 years running on average 50 miles/week (endurance training) to 5 years averaging <5 miles/week (hypertrophy training) while my bodyweight soared almost 100lbs. I attributed this responsiveness to years of suppressed bodyweight as a consequence of endurance training.

Slightly different context.

All beginners experience a strong response to a new training stimulus and it will certainly be enhanced if your recovering from any sort of "suppressed" state. Keep in mind that excessive endurance training of any kind can also cause muscles to "shrink" (another aerobic adaptation).
Recovering what you've lost and gaining beyond where you would've been minus the endurance history - that's where, IME, the difference lies.

Plus we have to factor in the age & sex differences as well when making the comparison here as well plus the fact that we're trying to maintain AAS induced growth without the AAS.

Ok, but my most burning question is will I retain the muscle i gain on cycle if I just eat my TDEE AFTER i go off cycle? See, what happened to me last time is I went on my first cycle ever, gained 8 lbs, much of which was muscle, then when I went off-cycle i went on vacation out of the country to get married, probably was not eating near enough, and hardly worked out (there was no gym there to speak of). So, if I keep up my eating and working out after my cycle has ended, theoretically I should keep most of the muscle i have gained, correct?

If you continue to progress in the gym, then yes - I'd say that's the best plan to run with.
I cannot say how much you'll keep (some of the gains are enhanced glycogen storage remember) but certainly more than going with other dietary approaches.

Sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone but I'm calling complete BS on that. I've been on show prep for 7 months. 5 of those months was bulking. I was able to lower my body fat with eating what was on my bulk meal plan and gain muscle all without gear. Now that I'm in the final stages of prep I've incorporated fasted cardio and post workout cardio with my new meal plan and I'm leaning out very nicely while still making gains. And again I'll say, this is all without gear. Granted, I have a really bad ass coach who knows his shit and I've been sticking to it for the most part. Also, I know just because that works for me doesn't mean it will work for you.

I'm not even sure what exactly your "calling BS" on - the fact that it's easier to minimizer fat gain while continue to build mass with a maintenance diet?
Or the fact that it's going to be difficult to keep building mass with a maintenance diet off cycle after the original gains were AAS assisted? Even more so considering the OPs endurance history.

Yea...I'm not buying for a minute that you lost fat on a bulk (surplus cals) as an advanced lifter. Human physiology doesn't work that way.
Now it is possible to do both for beginners, people returning from a layoff, recovering from excessive fat gain or if your on a recomp diet (calories cycled).

How are you measuring body fat? Is your coach taken into account the water fluctuations that occur week to week during a menstrual cycle?

As for gaining muscle (not strength) gains while in the latter stages of prep, again, not buying it. I've worked with enough natural bodybuilders of both sexes to know just how incredibly difficult this is and, depending on the contest & how lean your getting, it's a borderline impossibility for most (bikini I can see, figure/physique nope).

 

[Millard]

Recovering what you've lost and gaining beyond where you would've been minus the endurance history - that's where, IME, the difference lies.

I agree completely. And this is actually the period I was referring to - the responsiveness in "gaining beyond".

 

[ironhardempress]

thanks everyone for your helpful answers. This is an art AND a science, so I will just have to play around with it until i get it right. i figure anywhere from 2000-2200 cals I will continue to gain muscle and not gain too much fat if i continue to work hard in the gym (which I will). I plan to continue this for 6 more months, then see where I'm at and if things look good start to prep for a contest in May. Thanks again

 

[ironhardempress]

you can see what I am working with here. I am long and am just now building muscle (see my back in my media pics) but dont want anymore fat in my midsection! I'm going to have to work to get that off without sacrificing muscle as it is! And i just gained that in the past 6 weeks.

 

[Wendylifts]

you can see what I am working with here. I am long and am just now building muscle (see my back in my media pics) but dont want anymore fat in my midsection! I'm going to have to work to get that off without sacrificing muscle as it is! And i just gained that in the past 6 weeks.View attachment 44802

Wow! You are lean. You look like a runner. Or that you used to be. What division do you compete in? Love your ink too. I have zero nutrion advice I can give. I would guess you should keep eating in surplus. We all have our sweet spots where we gain weight first. Has the midsection traditionally been yours?

 

[ironhardempress]

yes, I was a competitive runner for 20 years before i started with Crossfit and then subsequently segueing into bodybuilding. I plan to compete in figure, Masters (I'm 53 and will be 54 in Oct.). Yes, I seem to gain in my midsection--not my thighs or butt like a lot of women. I was eating in WAY surplus and that is why you see thickness in my stomach and abdomen (I'm usually quite lean there). YOu are right about finding that perfect balance of how much to eat. ugh! Its so frustrating!!

 

[GearGodess]

yes, I was a competitive runner for 20 years before i started with Crossfit and then subsequently segueing into bodybuilding. I plan to compete in figure, Masters (I'm 53 and will be 54 in Oct.). Yes, I seem to gain in my midsection--not my thighs or butt like a lot of women. I was eating in WAY surplus and that is why you see thickness in my stomach and abdomen (I'm usually quite lean there). YOu are right about finding that perfect balance of how much to eat. ugh! Its so frustrating!!

Weight gain and thickness in the stomach is typically diet related. But seems like your diet may be on point...maybe re-evaluate the choices as something may not be agreeing with you. Also, stomach fat is usually stress and lack of rest related... so make sure you take rest days and relax.

If you plan on running gear even after this cycle, you should be ok with your gains. Primo is slow and lean mass gains, it takes a long time. I know you mentioned your previous experience of 8lbs gain but lost it all... that sounds like it wasn't all lean mass gains... but water too. Which makes sense that you lost it fast.

Now, even though primo is my absolute favorite compound, maybe it's not the best choice for what you want to achieve. At your age, I almost wonder if you'd benefit more from a test and npp cycle.... keep you feeling good, energized, strong and growing and changing your physique from a slim runner into a figure competitor.

What have you done in the past?

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[ironhardempress]

I have only done Primo, and that was just one time at the beginning of the year, and jsut for weeks. I actually have some NPP, i bought after recommendation from someone here, and my husband has boatloads of test. Idk how much test to take tho---i would be a little leary of permanent virilization. The NPP came in these small 1 ml ampules 100 mg/ml each. The test we have on hand is Test cyp. I will finish this cycle out. Wait some weeks, do blood work and then perhaps proceed with the NPP cycle and perhaps the test if I can figure out how much for the dosages. It's funny how fast I can lose weight tho (or maybe no funny?) ---went to Dallas for the weekend so of course i was eating erratically and I can tell I lost a couple lbs or so that fast. Ugh. I am not thick, per se, but i don't have that snakey-waspy waist that i so desire. I also have a short torso and lllooongggg legs so that doesn't lend itself to an hour-glass figure of any kind.