MESO-Rx Exclusive What do you think about steroid use in the military?

[Test_Subject]

100% support it if they’re used responsibly. They’re a huge advantage to the combat trades in the same way that they are for professional athletes. But, it’s important to remember that size and strength aren’t the only attributes that are important in combat. Without agility, endurance and dexterity, you’re useless.

Primo would be perfect in a military context.

I fully support cops using them, as well. A jacked, 250 lb monster of a cop is a lot less likely to resort to using their service weapon.

 

[Silentlemon1011]

100% support it if they’re used responsibly. They’re a huge advantage to the combat trades in the same way that they are for professional athletes. But, it’s important to remember that size and strength aren’t the only attributes that are important in combat. Without agility, endurance and dexterity, you’re useless.

Primo would be perfect in a military context.

I fully support cops using them, as well. A jacked, 250 lb monster of a cop is a lot less likely to resort to using their service weapon.

That last point is excellent.
I know a few geared up officers.
Never even bothered to pull their weapon, as mentally and physically, they're in control and confident when in a dangerous situation.

Fantastic point.

 

[Silentlemon1011]

Just as a note
@Millard
I'd love to see the same poll presented to "Normal" people that arent educated on PED usage.

I'd bet the farm that the votes would be totally inverted, where the general public would be VASTLY in favor of zero PED usage for military and police.

The explanation for the opposite results would most likely be along the lines of "Roid rage" "Dangerous anger" etc.

Just goes to show, PED education is non existent.

 

[lifter6973]

Just as a note
@Millard
I'd love to see the same poll presented to "Normal" people that arent educated on PED usage.

I'd bet the farm that the votes would be totally inverted, where the general public would be VASTLY in favor of zero PED usage for military and police.

The explanation for the opposite results would most likely be along the lines of "Roid rage" "Dangerous anger" etc.

Just goes to show, PED education is non existent.

or at the very least they would say only if they were used legally. I bet there would be a half split between that response and no period.

 

[CaptainJericho]

Most military actions today are done via drone strikes, missile strikes, etc. and are usually paired with technically non-military actions (but still acts of war such as blockades, sanctions, embargoes, etc) so PEDs would not even be an advantage in any of those.
Even in the classic conventional ground force paradigm, having to take time away from other duties to pin gear every couple of days or whatever, dealing with PCT issues (unless just blasting and cruising) would all be downsides too.
I know first hand that PED use is indeed prevalent in the Army & Marine Corps (presumably in the Air Force and Navy too) as well as police forces, but how much it is actually effective (not even sure how that is measured) is doubtful. Most of the guys I've seen on gear did so purely for vanity reasons and weren't generally any better at anything relevant to the job than guys who weren't on it. If anything, the correlation I've seen is that the guys on gear were less effective at actual work since they spent more of their efforts/time/focus on the gym, appearance, grooming, etc. than on other tasks. Also, as far as police/LE goes, gear users tend to correlate (correlation is not causation, of course) strongly with those who abuse their authority and rough up people who don't deserve it (some suspects do deserve it, I get it).

 

[Millard]

My support for PED use does not extend to the regular infantry. 17 and 18 yo kids in that MOS don't have the where with all to make a educated decision.

This raises the first problem with AAS in the military. You can't very well have an official policy which prohibits AAS and forces everyone to start sneaking around subverting the chain of command and doing their own thing on the sly.

This is a recipe for disaster. I'd say most teen and early-20s don't know what they are doing. And even if they think they do, they likely have zero experience with military-specific jobs and objectives. So maybe should authorized/supervised or not at all in the regular infantry.

I can see it differently for Special Forces and other elite units.

 

[Millard]

This will depend on the individual and the job they're doing.

For sure. I don't want to make blanket statements about all individuals and all jobs.

I still think as a general rule, gaining as much strength while maintaining bodyweight will have the best results for most. The smaller guy will have the advantage over the bigger guy in terms of endurance, agility and speed with strength and all other things being equal.

I trust that the elite do a good job of finding the right balance among all these variables for their respective jobs. You will find most of the performance outliers here.

 

[Millard]

Most of the guys I've seen on gear did so purely for vanity reasons and weren't generally any better at anything relevant to the job than guys who weren't on it. If anything, the correlation I've seen is that the guys on gear were less effective at actual work since they spent more of their efforts/time/focus on the gym, appearance, grooming, etc. than on other tasks.

I think this is a good point.

The question of whether AAS can enhance performance in the military may not be the critical question. I think most people agree that it can offer an advantage just like it does in so many athletic endeavors.

The real question may be is job performance actually the driving force behind AAS use in the military? And secondarily, does evidence support AAS user superior job performance?

 

[Human_backhoe]

The real question may be is job performance actually the driving force behind AAS use in the military? And secondarily, does evidence support AAS user superior job performance?

Ouch. Now that's a complex question! What role does ego and confidence play? My personal opinion in quite a bit seeing the experiences of my friends that went that route!

 

[Millard]

The explanation for the opposite results would most likely be along the lines of "Roid rage" "Dangerous anger" etc.

Also, as far as police/LE goes, gear users tend to correlate (correlation is not causation, of course) strongly with those who abuse their authority and rough up people who don't deserve it (some suspects do deserve it, I get it).

This brings up another big issue with steroid use in law enforcement - the argument that the psychological effects of AAS are incompatible with or negate any potential performance-enhancement benefits seen in LE.

I don't buy into the general roid rage mythology. But there is plenty of evidence of adverse psychological effects is mostly limited to a small number of AAS users.

Here's the issue as I see it.

The number of people with who experience psy problems like AAS-related aggression may represent less than 5% of all users.

However, this tiny minority is likely over-represented in law enforcement. So if instead of 5% you may have 25-30% who have issues, then this becomes more problematic.

[EDIT: I used the above 25-30% figure just to present a possible scenario. I'll have to return to this when I have more info]

Steroids are not for everyone. If AAS are ever permitted in LE, there should definitely be screening.

While AAS are generally safe for most people, I hope people recognize when they compromise their physical and psychological health as welll as job performance.

 

[Test_Subject]

Here's the issue as I see it.

The number of people with who experience psy problems like AAS-related aggression may represent less than 5% of all users.

However, this tiny minority is likely over-represented in law enforcement. So instead of 5% you may have 25-30% who have issues. This becomes more problematic.

That’s an issue that’s intrinsic to policing: many of those who want to be cops shouldn’t ever be cops. Policing draws power trippers, abusive, angry timebombs and people who want to get back at the world because they were bullied in high school. Add in a culture of coverups, keeping your mouth shut about abuses of power etc. and you have a bunch of explosive, dangerous people who are largely protected from consequences.

We need to fundamentally re-examine policing from the ground up.

Before someone jumps on me for being “anti-police”, no, I’m not. I’m not saying that all police are nut jobs who are one traffic stop away from shooting someone, but I realize that it’s an occupation that draws unstable people and we need to do more to screen those people out.

Policing is a lot like bouncing: a good bouncer almost never gets into fights. Fighting is a last resort. If it’s your first resort then you shouldn’t be doing it because you’re a liability.

 

[pigeonhed]

This is very interesting to me, the issue of Bioethics. Do we have an obligation to use Science and Technology to enhance the ability of the soldiers to do the jobs, or are we obligating ourselves to liability.

Whereas the athlete going to the olympics we see a clear distinction. They do not take the PED and the only risk is not winning a medal. If we send a soldier into a situation they are not able to handle, they can die. Do we have an obligation to give the soldier the best possible chance for survival? What are the risks to general health?

Would this be a mandatory use? The military needs a framework for PED use.

 

[CaptainJericho]

That’s an issue that’s intrinsic to policing: many of those who want to be cops shouldn’t ever be cops. Policing draws power trippers, abusive, angry timebombs and people who want to get back at the world because they were bullied in high school. Add in a culture of coverups, keeping your mouth shut about abuses of power etc. and you have a bunch of explosive, dangerous people who are largely protected from consequences.

We need to fundamentally re-examine policing from the ground up.

Before someone jumps on me for being “anti-police”, no, I’m not. I’m not saying that all police are nut jobs who are one traffic stop away from shooting someone, but I realize that it’s an occupation that draws unstable people and we need to do more to screen those people out.

Policing is a lot like bouncing: a good bouncer almost never gets into fights. Fighting is a last resort. If it’s your first resort then you shouldn’t be doing it because you’re a liability.

That's a great point, but I would also add that the power trippers you correctly refer to also encompasses people who aren't the stereotypical variety (i.e. male jock) as the far more prevalent power trip sub-types are actually the administrative busybodies, brown-nosing career climbers and politically ambitious scum that tend to float to the top. Unfortunately keeping those types out is far far harder since they are the type who end up deciding who to keep out and let in.

See the actions of the FBI, ATF, etc at Waco, Ruby Ridge and to this very day for clear evidence of all of the above. Local departments tend to actually be somewhat less plagued by this.
All of the above applies equally to the military as well, mind you.

 

[notdeadYET]

The system is fine as-is. Guys that want to use, will always use. Steroid use is largely unnecessary for the majority of the military. 18-20 year old kids don't need it. They will just fuck themselves up. I speak from experience (Infantry, 6 years). The amount of disability claims due to military prescribed steroids is cost prohibitive. And most likely you'd have way more Supply guys jacked than Infantry. Most guys just get want to get drunk, fight, and fuck. Special Forces are a different breed.

 

[CaptainJericho]

The system is fine as-is. Guys that want to use, will always use. Steroid use is largely unnecessary for the majority of the military. 18-20 year old kids don't need it. They will just fuck themselves up. I speak from experience (Infantry, 6 years). The amount of disability claims due to military prescribed steroids is cost prohibitive. And most likely you'd have way more Supply guys jacked than Infantry. Most guys just get want to get drunk, fight, and fuck. Special Forces are a different breed.

If guys like Lon Horiuchi who murdered a woman and a boy are breathing and have a pulse, and the countless agents who burned, what a 100 or so, men women and children to death at Waco, and the military is bombing and drone striking civilians around the world daily in countries that have never attacked the United States, then things are hardly "fine". They might be fine for the ruling class, of course, but that's a different matter.

 

[lifter6973]

That’s an issue that’s intrinsic to policing: many of those who want to be cops shouldn’t ever be cops. Policing draws power trippers, abusive, angry timebombs and people who want to get back at the world because they were bullied in high school. Add in a culture of coverups, keeping your mouth shut about abuses of power etc. and you have a bunch of explosive, dangerous people who are largely protected from consequences.

We need to fundamentally re-examine policing from the ground up.

Before someone jumps on me for being “anti-police”, no, I’m not. I’m not saying that all police are nut jobs who are one traffic stop away from shooting someone, but I realize that it’s an occupation that draws unstable people and we need to do more to screen those people out.

Policing is a lot like bouncing: a good bouncer almost never gets into fights. Fighting is a last resort. If it’s your first resort then you shouldn’t be doing it because you’re a liability.

Word. Good points.