What is wrong with daily low dose HCG with TRT?

[LW64]

I'll state my n=1 experience with HCG vs T.

HCG is different and while some of what happens when I go off T and on to HCG only may be due to the absence of T rather than the presence of HCG - for example I sleep better on HCG - I would say the main difference is that orgasms seem to feel more natural. I.e., more like they were before I was on or needed TRT. I've also been on clomid and I will say orgasms then (when clomid was working at its best) were even more natural by the same standard.

Going from most natural to least natural, the range would look like this:

No TRT (i.e., before it was necessary) > clomid > HCG > Test (gels or esters) > PDE5Is

 

[foreveryoung]

I'll state my n=1 experience with HCG vs T.

HCG is different and while some of what happens when I go off T and on to HCG only may be due to the absence of T rather than the presence of HCG - for example I sleep better on HCG - I would say the main difference is that orgasms seem to feel more natural. I.e., more like they were before I was on or needed TRT. I've also been on clomid and I will say orgasms then (when clomid was working at its best) were even more natural by the same standard.

Going from most natural to least natural, the range would look like this:

No TRT (i.e., before it was necessary) > clomid > HCG > Test (gels or esters) > PDE5Is

huh? how would Viagra et al affect orgasm?

 

[LW64]

huh? how would Viagra et al affect orgasm?

No idea but it doesn't feel natural at all to me.

 

[foreveryoung]

No idea but it doesn't feel natural at all to me.

strange, I don't see any relationship between the two things

unless you are not actually sexually turned on and the Viagra has you erect so you go through with sex without being turned on, then if that is the case, the Viagra has nothing to do with the orgasm quality being poor, rather the fact you are not turned on is the real reason

 

[LW64]

strange, I don't see any relationship between the two things

unless you are not actually sexually turned on and the Viagra has you erect so you go through with sex without being turned on, then if that is the case, the Viagra has nothing to do with the orgasm quality being poor, rather the fact you are not turned on is the real reason

The orgasm quality I experience on PDE5Is is not poor.

It is, IMO, the least like the way it felt back when I was not on TRT.

 

[hardasnails1973]

Hcg has.given bigger loads lol spunk monster strikes again

 

[Handle2]

I am not being difficult, but first one must decide what is the purpose of the hCG. Following is some info on Extragonadal Luteinizing Hormone / Chorionic Gonadotropin Receptors [LH/hCG-R].

There have been some statements that there exists Extragonadal Luteinizing Hormone / Chorionic Gonadotropin Receptors [LH/hCG-R], particularly within the Central Nervous System (CNS), that are functionally significant. Moreover, they use these statements as reasoning for the use of human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) within Testosterone Replacement Therapy (TRT). Not surprisingly, these practitioners provide no evidence foe these claims. [IIRC, they point to a possible short feedback loop as evidence, which is unproven. If this is the evidence for its use, then any drug is okay for just about anything! https://thinksteroids.com/community/posts/854916 ]

In a 2007 review, the authors’ concluded, “further evidence is needed before the extragonadal LH/hCG-R expression can be considered functionally significant.” In a recent communication a study author stated, “Further information is accumulating, but I would still stick to our old original conclusion. You can find recent publication on LHR expression in the uterus, but I am still not convinced about their functional significance.

There is NO, NADA, ZIP, ZERO evidence for functional Extragonadal Luteinizing Hormone / Chorionic Gonadotropin Receptors [LH/hCG-R] within the CNS and more especially in males.


Pakarainen T, Ahtiainen P, Zhang F-P, Rulli S, Poutanen M, Huhtaniemi I. Extragonadal LH/hCG action—Not yet time to rewrite textbooks. Molecular and Cellular Endocrinology 2007;269(1-2):9-16. ScienceDirect.com - Molecular and Cellular Endocrinology - Extragonadal LH/hCG action—Not yet time to rewrite textbooks

Gonadotropins are indispensable in both sexes in the regulation of gonadal sex steroid production and gametogenesis. In addition to their well-established classical actions, numerous recent publications have indicated the presence and function of luteinizing hormone/chorionic gonadotropin receptors (LH/hCG-R) in a variety of extragonadal tissues. However, the physiological significance of such effects has remained unclear. We have generated two genetically modified mouse models, one with excessive production of hCG and the other with targeted disruption of LH/hCG-R gene, and used them to address the functions of LH and hCG. Numerous gonadal and extragonadal phenotypes were found in the models with the two extremes of LH/hCG action. However, when the extragonadal effects were scrutinized in greater detail, they all appeared to arise through modification of gonadal function, either through enhanced or inhibited response to LH/hCG stimulation. Hence, further evidence is needed before the extragonadal LH/hCG-R expression can be considered functionally significant.

Unfortunately, that does not answer my question . If one's primary objective in using hCG in conjunction with TRT is to maintain his pre-TRT testicular volume and ejaculate volume, what would do you think would be a reasonable amount to use each week and how many times each week should it be taken?

 

[Handle2]

I go back and forth between IM T (about 20 mg every other day) with an intermittent substitution of HCG (250 IUs or sometimes 500 IUs) for an IM T shot about once a week or once every two weeks, and IM T ONLY, and occasional weekly to monthly runs of HCG (500 IUs M/W/Fri or 750 IUs twice a week) when I've gone a while (say 3 months) on IM T only.

I dont think HCG with a weekly IM T protocol works very well because: when would you take it?? You take it the 2 days before your IM T shot and now you've got three consecutive days of hormone shots that make your E2 go ballistic. Take it on the middle day and thats when your E2 is already high from the T shot. It makes more sense to squeeze it in weekly or bi-weekly as part of an every other day IM T protocol - IOW substitute an HCG shot for an IM T shot every now and then. You're taking a LOW dose of T and that helps keep the E2 response to exogenous T at a minimum and you're adding in HCG only occasionally to keep the Leydigs active. I've been doing this for the last year or so and it works.

Thanks. Good to know this protocol is working for you.
What I don't understand is that when you're injecting test cypionate eod, after some time your levels will become very stable, so no real rise and fall. The same thing happens when you inject smaller amounts of HCG frequently.
Did you ever try injecting HCG on the same day as test? One guy on another forum is injecting 20mg test cyp eod along with 200iu HCG on the same day as the test shot and he is feeling good and his lab values are also good.

 

[Handle2]

I'll state my n=1 experience with HCG vs T.

HCG is different and while some of what happens when I go off T and on to HCG only may be due to the absence of T rather than the presence of HCG - for example I sleep better on HCG - I would say the main difference is that orgasms seem to feel more natural. I.e., more like they were before I was on or needed TRT. I've also been on clomid and I will say orgasms then (when clomid was working at its best) were even more natural by the same standard.

Going from most natural to least natural, the range would look like this:

No TRT (i.e., before it was necessary) > clomid > HCG > Test (gels or esters) > PDE5Is

Can you please clarify how your orgasms feel more natural on HCG rather than on testosterone only? I've never read anything about exogenous testosterone affecting orgasms. Does it make them weaker?

 

[foreveryoung]

Can you please clarify how your orgasms feel more natural on HCG rather than on testosterone only? I've never read anything about exogenous testosterone affecting orgasms. Does it make them weaker?

hormones including test can have a huge influence on orgasms

 

[LW64]

Thanks. Good to know this protocol is working for you.
What I don't understand is that when you're injecting test cypionate eod, after some time your levels will become very stable, so no real rise and fall. The same thing happens when you inject smaller amounts of HCG frequently.
Did you ever try injecting HCG on the same day as test? One guy on another forum is injecting 20mg test cyp eod along with 200iu HCG on the same day as the test shot and he is feeling good and his lab values are also good.

I was on HCG monotherapy for about 6 months and for part of that time I used 200 IUs/day, 7 days a week. It put my tT in the high 500s/low 600s...BUT... my E2 was 90. Never been so horny and so unable to do anything about it. Even PDE5Is did not work. ED from Hell.

I think injecting HCG with T in an every other day protocol could work, but I havent tried it because my past experience with 200 IUs/day is a strong indication that, in my case, it may not work.

Here's the issue: E2.

When you inject T only it gets converted peripherally to E2. When you inject HCG, the T made in the Leydigs is converted to E2 by the aromatase present in the fatty tissue at/near the Leydigs (the testicles have a lot of fat in them) while the T that gets out into the rest of the body also gets converted to E2...so now you have TWO sources of E2...combine HCG with T and now you've got THREE sources of E2.

Its easy to see why HCG alone or in combination with T can be a problem and if you're estrogen sensitive (get ED, gynoco, become emotional, etc.) I would say its best to keep them mostly or completely separate. Btw, the low-dose, gentle addition of T in an eod protocol doesnt seem to shrink the testes as fast as weekly or bi-weekly injections. I just finished six months of ~ 20 mg eod, and I have no noticeable shrinkage. That hasnt been the case when I was on weekly or bi-weekly IM T shots.

I find it much easier to control E2 without an AI by keeping the protocols mostly separate. The eod IM T protocol yields the lowest E2 response and provides some 'headroom' for an E2 rise when HCG is occasionally added in.

 

[LW64]

Can you please clarify how your orgasms feel more natural on HCG rather than on testosterone only? I've never read anything about exogenous testosterone affecting orgasms. Does it make them weaker?

I've had the opportunity to compare because I regularly switch back and forth between T only, T with HCG, and HCG only. I've also used clomid for about 18 months. I'm using the way orgams felt prior to becoming hypogonadic as the standard. I'm not talking about ejaculate volume, erectile strength, or orgasm intensity. I'm referring to just the general, overall sensation.

 

[Jq88]

Such an interesting debate...

I am secondary (16mg tcyp daily) and here's what I notice from HCG @ 75iu daily:

Fuller penis
Increase libido
Mental sharpness
Improved mood
Bigger loads

HOWEVER, even at 75iu/day there is definitely an e2 spike... Introduce AI...

I would like to ditch AI altogether

Surprised so many make a big deal of ball size... It is a non issue

HCG (as stated) is about the brain... And I'm convinced HCG has a positive effect on Pregnenolone and other hormones...

Daily might be too much.

Maybe 100iu MWF?

There is no exact science and everybody is different

As LW64 and others have mentioned... TRT without an AI is ideal...

Is it possible with HCG?

I guess it depends.

No doubt smaller more frequent injections are ideal for T and HCG and GH for that matter...

Is HCG necessary?

That's the $1,000,000 question?

Maybe 75iu eod?

Trial and error...

It's fascinating there are so many different opinions on HCG.

the AI argument is much clearer?

Not needed unless absolutely necessary

T + HCG + AI

OR

T only...

It doesn't seem like T + HCG is possible for most without an AI

 

[foreveryoung]

experimented a lot with and without hcg, my opinion now is that hcg is definitely not worth the trouble for me and I don't use it anymore

 

[Jq88]

Forever young,

Do you use an AI?

What's your trt protocol?

It's frustrating how it's so day to day.

Not sure how much of it has to do with e2. I have a difficult time gauging it.

Labs come back ok but I know it fluctuates day to day.

 

[LW64]

Labs come back ok but I know it fluctuates day to day.

Your long post has a considerable lack of specificity.

Your labs come back normal? Ok.

So then what, exactly, are you trying to do?

 

[Jq88]

For example...

Friday and Saturday tremendous nocturnal and morning wood.

Great workout Sunday but could feel penis dying out a little throughout the day.

No night time wood last night no morning wood this morning...

last HCG shot was Friday so I don't know if it's HCG related or e2 related...

Can't get labs every three days to see what's going on.

 

[LW64]

Recent labs results??

 

[Jq88]

TT 531 (250-1100)
FT 97 (50-150)
E2<15 (have since cut back on AI)
Shbg (18)
LH/FSH (0)
Pregnenolone (Low)

Everything else in range and normal...

GH <.1 (not sure if this is from Adex or what)

Its so day to day...

STRONG in the gym one day... No motivation to workout the next

Pornstar sex one night... Can barely get it up the next...

Day to day.

 

[LW64]

AT a Total T of 531 and SHBG at 18, your Free T is nearly dead center in the normal range at 15 ng/dL. Not a surprise since your SHBG is on the low side, you don't need much of a Total T level to get your Free T into the normal range.

http://www.issam.ch/freetesto.htm

Your present protocol is 16 mg T/day or 112 mg T/week and 75 IU HCG/day or 525 IU/week. The daily dose of HCG is making your T level vary, plus whatever disruptive effect the variability in E2 that comes with it may be having on libido. On top of that, the AI adds another complicating factor that is impossible to correct given how many things you are trying to do at once.

[1] STOP TAKING THE AI. (don't taper, don't reduce...STOP)

[2] Inject 40 mg T twice a week and 250 IU HCG on the same two days a week. (80 mg T/week plus 500 IU HCG).

[3] Get labs for Total T and E2 at the end of 5 weeks and adjust your HCG dose up or down based on the results.

You want your T dose to be LESS THAN where you are now so your E2 doesn't go wild now that the AI is gone. You want to approach the 'sweet spot' for Total T from the LOW side, not the high side. Your present Total T level is at/near the sweet spot, only it is changing too much due to the daily HCG shots. You want to steady your T (and E2 level) by spacing the HCG shots. This gives the Leydig cells a 3 - 4 day break and allows time for your liver to excrete the E2 so it isn't always playing 'catch-up'.

This is going to take some trial-and-error, so be patient!