What John Kerry calls the "Mess in Iraq"

To those of you who oppose the war or think that Bush "lied" so we could go to war over "oil":

-Do you believe that a confrontation with Saddam Hussein's regime was not inevitable?

-Do you believe that a confrontation with an Uday/Qusay regime would have been better?

-Do you think that we could have just left the Kurdish and Shiite resistance fighters do all the fighting for us?

-Do you think that the timing of a confrontation should have been left, as it was in the past, for Baghdad to choose?

If you can answer "yes" to any of these questions then you are truly f@*king confused. Were we to just ignore saddam until he had the opportunity to bring the fighting, the massacres, the "fallujahs" to American soil? Even in late '02 iraq was continuing to pursue ICBM technology from North Korea, do you think they just voluntarily stopped before we invaded?

You jokers make me sick. You throw around words like "neocon" and "bushevic" and "bushites" like the USA's executive office is some huge corrupt dictatorship. Do you really think that the president and staff could get away with these vile plans you accuse them of? Tell me one time in history when an administration has been able to pull of something this scandalous and fool every single american citizen.

Saddam Hussein and all of his descendants and all of his minions would have spent the rest of their lives trying to destroy the United States and everything that we stand for. I have no doubt in my mind that if we had let him go unchecked the United States would have been hit big time--either with a nuke or virus or poison--in our lifetime. The world and our future is better off whether you like it or not. When you or your children have the opportunity to visit Iraq one day and see some of the great relics of ancient civilization you will thank Bush 43 for having the balls to do what his dad, Clinton, or that spineless, worthless, American-hating drivel u.n. would not.
 
jarz said:
As for liberal ideas, what do you call freedom of speech? Freedom of religion? Right not to have your home invaded without due cause? The right to oppose a political parties views? Those are pretty liberal ideas in my opinion.

Just a little Poli. Sci. background for everyone...

The reason these freedoms are called "liberal" ideas IS NOT because they are the basis for today's liberal agenda. The term liberal comes from the term "Classic Liberal" which is used to describe the group that wanted a smaller government, smaller taxes and more personal freedoms. One such "Classic Liberal" was Thomas Jefferson...

Today's "liberals" do not want smaller government or more personal freedoms, they are the PC crowd and the tax raisers...

In conclusion, today's liberals are the EXACT OPPOSITE of the "Classic Liberal..."

There are still some "Classic Liberals" left, just look to the Libertarian Party...
 
Originally Posted by jarz
As for liberal ideas, what do you call freedom of speech? Freedom of religion?

Freedom of religion is a liberal idea? Maybe if you are Muslim, but certainly not if youre Christian. The libs are trying to get any mention of religion out of anything public, whether it be schools, govt buildings, or anywhere else they feel like sticking their noses. Thats not freedom of religion at all.
 
saddam was a threat that needed to be eliminated, period. i don't care if there were WMD's found or not. i am more than happy sacrificing a few of my hard earned dollars to drop some bombs on that bastard and his regime to secure our homeland and our families. think back to before we invaded Iraq, i don't think anyone in here can honestly say that they never had any fear of Iraq or the good ole Taliban carrying out another 9/11 type terrorist attack on our country. now look, we don't have shit to worry about because we took care of the threrats. before we invaded Iraq every other week the news would be talking about the "terrorist alert" and how it was elevated to high and shit like that. the media was pushing more than anyone for us to go in there and take over, not because they were democratic, or because they were Jews, or because they hated Bush, but because THATS WHAT GOT PEOPLE TALKING!!!! the media only cares about what sells and what the rest of the fucked up world cares about...MONEY!!! now that our homeland is safe lets turn our concerns over to our brothers and sisters that are still fighting for us in that God Forsaken country and pray for their safe return.
 
actually, i still disagree about the presidency controlling the media. I am not voting in november so than i wont bitch anymore about this country
jarz said:
I will give you this much, Bush does not control the media, the Institution of the Presidency does. Therefore, since Bush is President, he controls the media.

As for the hallucinating...you and the Republicans wish. You wanna turn this into an internet tough guy name calling breakdown or do you wish to continue debating a controversial issue?
 
FTW said:
All i gota say about this is FUCK IRAQ!!!
We got enough problems here in the home land than worry about a shit hole coutry that should be turned into one giant 7-11.


hell ya FTW....I could not have said it better .
 
Mark Kerr said:
Just a little Poli. Sci. background for everyone...

The reason these freedoms are called "liberal" ideas IS NOT because they are the basis for today's liberal agenda. The term liberal comes from the term "Classic Liberal" which is used to describe the group that wanted a smaller government, smaller taxes and more personal freedoms. One such "Classic Liberal" was Thomas Jefferson...

Today's "liberals" do not want smaller government or more personal freedoms, they are the PC crowd and the tax raisers...

In conclusion, today's liberals are the EXACT OPPOSITE of the "Classic Liberal..."

There are still some "Classic Liberals" left, just look to the Libertarian Party...

I happen to be a Registered and Practicing Libertarian.

If the conservatives...ie REPUBLICANS.. had thier way, we would have no personal freedoms and more taxes so they could pocket that money and tell us they were spending it on some ridiculous marriage bill.

You do not have to agree with my political postion as I do not have to agree with yours. I do not think less of you for your beliefs. I could care less what you think of me.

peace.
 
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Bob Smith said:
Originally Posted by jarz
As for liberal ideas, what do you call freedom of speech? Freedom of religion?

Freedom of religion is a liberal idea? Maybe if you are Muslim, but certainly not if youre Christian. The libs are trying to get any mention of religion out of anything public, whether it be schools, govt buildings, or anywhere else they feel like sticking their noses. Thats not freedom of religion at all.


How do you justify your statement? If you are Muslim, feedom of religion is liberal but not if you are Christian???? You sound like a moron.
Christianity is not the only religion on this planet or in this country. Your statement is not well thought out. Reread what you wrote.

Since you mentioned it, Church and State are "SUPPOSED" to be seperate, or have you not heard of this? Perhaps THAT is what the liberals of today are trying to accomplish?????? Many of our laws are based on religion. What if I dont believe in what you believe in? Should your laws apply to me? Not according to my religion. Do you see what Im trying to get at?
 
Phreezer said:
See.. the only thing I don't like about voting is the Electoral college.. I live in a republican state (which is how I usually vote) so the fact that I will vote Dem in this election will have no bearing whatsoever... I will still vote..don't get me wrong.. I don't have the right to bitch if I don't vote... I'll vote even though it will mean nothing because of the state.... I really want to see an election where overall majority wins..instead of electoral votes... Now,,that would be something!! ;)

Could not have said it better!!!!
 
jarz said:
How do you justify your statement? If you are Muslim, feedom of religion is liberal but not if you are Christian???? You sound like a moron.
Christianity is not the only religion on this planet or in this country. Your statement is not well thought out. Reread what you wrote.

Since you mentioned it, Church and State are "SUPPOSED" to be seperate, or have you not heard of this? Perhaps THAT is what the liberals of today are trying to accomplish?????? Many of our laws are based on religion. What if I dont believe in what you believe in? Should your laws apply to me? Not according to my religion. Do you see what Im trying to get at?
What I was saying is that the govt finds it ok for Islam and other religions to be espoused in schools and whatnot, but the same does not apply to Christianity.

Church and state are supposed to be separate in that we are not to have a government-run religion (like the Anglicans in England). We dont have a national religion. The level of "separation" we have now is totally assinine.
 
Bob Smith said:
What I was saying is that the govt finds it ok for Islam and other religions to be espoused in schools and whatnot, but the same does not apply to Christianity.

Church and state are supposed to be separate in that we are not to have a government-run religion (like the Anglicans in England). We dont have a national religion. The level of "separation" we have now is totally assinine.

We are not to have a Religion- run government either. It certainly works both ways.

Please explain your last comment: The level of "separation" we have now is totally assinine
I do not get what you are trying to say here.
 
jarz said:
We are not to have a Religion- run government either. It certainly works both ways.

Please explain your last comment: The level of "separation" we have now is totally assinine
I do not get what you are trying to say here.

And we are far from a religion run goverment, so what's your point!
 
This was a special on frontline awhile back....check it out http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/iraq/etc/synopsis.html

Wolfowitz and perl got us into this mess......

As the U.S. stands at the brink of war with Iraq, many are now warning about the potential consequences: the danger of getting bogged down in Baghdad, the prospect of longtime allies leaving America's side, the possibility of chaos in the Middle East, the threat of renewed terrorism.

But the Bush administration insiders who helped define the "Bush Doctrine," and who have argued most forcefully for war, are determined to set a course that will remake America's role in the world. Having served three Republican presidents over the course of two decades, this group of close advisers -- among them Vice President Dick Cheney, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, and perhaps most importantly, Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz -- believe that the removal of Saddam Hussein is the necessary first act of a new era.

In "The War Behind Closed Doors," FRONTLINE traces the inside story of how those advisers -- calling themselves "neo-Reaganites," "neo-conservatives," or simply "hawks" -- set out to achieve the most dramatic change in American foreign policy in half a century: a grand strategy, formally articulated in the National Security Strategy released last September, that is based on preemption rather than containment and calls for the bold assertion of American power and influence around the world.

Through interviews with key Republican insiders, foreign policy analysts, and longtime White House observers, the report reveals how America got to the brink of war with Iraq -- and how a war and its aftermath will put these advisers' big idea to the test.

"The War Behind Closed Doors" follows a long-running policy battle between two of Washington's most powerful insiders and the philosophies they represent: Secretary of State Colin Powell and Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz. Powell, who held the top military job at the Pentagon under President George H.W. Bush and other powerful posts at the highest levels of government, is a cautious realist who represents the establishment's abiding belief in diplomacy and the containment of foreign enemies. Wolfowitz, who built a career as a smart and tough hardliner at the Departments of State and Defense, champions the idea of preemption, striking first to defend America and to project its democratic values.

At the time the Gulf War ended in 1991, Powell was the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and Wolfowitz was deputy secretary of defense for policy, the third-highest ranking civilian in then-Secretary of Defense Dick Cheney's Pentagon. Powell was instrumental in stopping the war short of going to Baghdad and removing Saddam Hussein. Wolfowitz and other hardliners were less than enthusiastic about that decision.

"Paul Wolfowitz believed then that it was a mistake to end the war," says Richard Perle, chairman of the influential Defense Policy Board and a veteran of the Reagan administration. "They underestimated the way in which Saddam was able to cling to power, and the means he would use to remain in power. That was the mistake."

Soon after the Gulf War, Wolfowitz supervised the drafting of a set of classified policy guidelines, called a Defense Planning Guidance, for how the U.S. should deal with Saddam Hussein and the rest of the world in the post-Cold War era. Wolfowitz believed containment was an old idea -- a relic of the Cold War -- and that America should use its overwhelming military might preemptively, and unilaterally, if need be. His draft of these policy guidelines was leaked to the press in 1992.

"Inside the U.S. defense planning establishment, there were people who thought this thing was nuts," Barton Gellman of The Washington Post tells FRONTLINE. "The first draft said that the United States would be prepared to preempt the use of nuclear, biological, or chemical weapons by any other nation, even, the document said, 'Where our interests are otherwise not engaged.' ... It spoke of punishing or retaliating for that use, but it also said 'preempt.' This was the first time."

"Wolfowitz basically authored a doctrine of American hegemony," says historian and foreign policy expert John Lewis Gaddis, "a doctrine in which the United States would seek to maintain the position that it came out of the Cold War with, at which there were no obvious or plausible challengers to the United States. That was considered quite shocking in 1992. So shocking, in fact, that the Bush administration, at that time, disavowed it."

As the first President Bush left office, Wolfowitz's draft plan went into the bottom drawer, but it would not be forgotten.

"The War Behind Closed Doors" goes on to recount how the Clinton administration struggled to deal with Saddam Hussein's defiance of U.S. and U.N. containment policies, while hawks in the neoconservative wing of the Republican Party grew increasingly impatient.

With the election of George W. Bush in 2000, however, the hawks saw a new opportunity to implement a stronger, forward-leaning American stance in the world. Yet during the new president's first year in office, skirmishing between Colin Powell's State Department and Rumsfeld's Pentagon -- where Wolfowitz is now the second-ranking civilian -- left the adminstration's foreign policy stalled in a kind of internal gridlock.

All that would change on Sept. 11, 2001.

Four days after the attacks on New York and the Pentagon, President Bush and his Cabinet held a war council at Camp David. "From the first moments after Sept. 11, there was a group of people, both inside the administration and out, who believed that the war on terrorism should target Iraq -- in fact, should target Iraq first," says Kenneth Pollack, author of The Threatening Storm: The Case for Invading Iraq (2002) and a former member of the National Security Council staff in the Clinton administration.

But Colin Powell and Gen. Henry Shelton, chairman of the Joint Chiefs, were determined to rein in the hawks. Powell's argument -- that an international coalition could only be assembled for a war against Al Qaeda and the Taliban in Afghanistan, not an invasion of Iraq -- won the day, and Iraq was put on the back burner.

Yet President Bush had made it clear that the U.S. would not stop at pursuing terrorists and bringing them to justice. "We will make no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts and those who harbor them," the president told the nation on the evening of Sept. 11.

Four months later, with the Taliban defeated and Al Qaeda largely dispersed, Bush was ready to move on to the next phase of the war on terrorism. In his State of the Union address, he laid the groundwork for an invasion of Iraq, tying Saddam Hussein's regime to terrorism and weapons of mass destruction.

"States like these," Bush declared, "and their terrorist allies constitute an axis of evil arming to threaten the peace of the world. ... The United States of America will not permit the world's most dangerous regimes to threaten us with the world's most destructive weapons."

The stage was set. Phase two was underway, and preemption would get its test case. The president had set a course for the U.S. to use its military power not only to topple Saddam Hussein but to promote democracy in Iraq and the rest of the Middle East. Wolfowitz and the hawks, by all appearances, had succeeded.

"I wrote a piece in the Post two days after the State of the Union," recalls William Kristol, editor of the influential neoconservative magazine The Weekly Standard, "saying we've just been present at a very unusual moment: the creation of a new American foreign policy."

In the thirteen months since that speech, the Bush administration has moved steadily toward war with Iraq, though Colin Powell was able to convince the president to seek U.N. backing. Whether that approval is won or not, it is clear that this administration intends to alter America's strategic relationship to the world.
 
jarz said:
We are not to have a Religion- run government either. It certainly works both ways.

Please explain your last comment: The level of "separation" we have now is totally assinine
I do not get what you are trying to say here.
Nowhere does it say that religion cant be involved in govt, only that we cant have a state-run religion.

As far as being assinine, people are construing the "separation of church and state" as meaning that religion cant be talked about except in private. No public discussion about any of it, particularly when it comes to Christianity. We cant talk about Jesus in school because that will offend people, but its ok to study Islam and Hinduism.
 
Bob Smith said:
Nowhere does it say that religion cant be involved in govt, only that we cant have a state-run religion.

As far as being assinine, people are construing the "separation of church and state" as meaning that religion cant be talked about except in private. No public discussion about any of it, particularly when it comes to Christianity. We cant talk about Jesus in school because that will offend people, but its ok to study Islam and Hinduism.

Seperation of Church and State is just that.... it doesnt suite one and not the other. It is meant to SEPERATE THE TWO....DUH!

Never have I said we cannot discuss religion publicly, nor have I ever heard anyone saying that. I think that is what you want to hear.

What people are saying is our laws should not be based on religious beliefs because they do not fit everyone's religious beliefs.

As for talking about Jesus in school, the whole point of that is that it should not be forced upon those that do not want to hear it, such as the pledge of allegiance, by TEACHERS. I do not want my children to learn about Jesus or God or Buddah or Mohammad or Moses or any other religious icon from somone who is supposed to be teaching them math or how to read. ** I WILL HANDLE MY CHILDREN'S RELIGIOUS TEACHINGS **
 
jarz said:
HA!!!!!

careful friend, your ignorance is showing.


peace


Prove it! I am a pastor and I have to deal with the govermant everyday. do you know how hard it is to get into a school, and/or goverment office to tell my side and what I believe! Very hard to impossiable. i am sorry my friend but your ignorance is showing! Please do not comment on things you know nothing about!
 
jarz said:
Seperation of Church and State is just that.... it doesnt suite one and not the other. It is meant to SEPERATE THE TWO....DUH!

Never have I said we cannot discuss religion publicly, nor have I ever heard anyone saying that. I think that is what you want to hear.

What people are saying is our laws should not be based on religious beliefs because they do not fit everyone's religious beliefs.

As for talking about Jesus in school, the whole point of that is that it should not be forced upon those that do not want to hear it, such as the pledge of allegiance, by TEACHERS. I do not want my children to learn about Jesus or God or Buddah or Mohammad or Moses or any other religious icon from somone who is supposed to be teaching them math or how to read. ** I WILL HANDLE MY CHILDREN'S RELIGIOUS TEACHINGS **
How is learning about the history of Christianity (or any other religion) being "forced upon those that do not want to hear it?" The history of religion (particularly Islam, Judaism, and Christianity) are very much involved in the history of the Western world. That would be like teaching a class about American history and skipping over the part about the Industrial Revolution.

Again, how is the pledge of allegiance forcing religion on people?
 
Bob Smith said:
Again, how is the pledge of allegiance forcing religion on people?

Appearently you dont know the pledge of allegiance. If you were an athiest, wouldnt it be forcing religion on you to pledge allegiance to a nation UNDER GOD?
Yes, it would. Not everyone believes in God. Those heathen bastards!
:D
 
Bob Smith said:
How is learning about the history of Christianity (or any other religion) being "forced upon those that do not want to hear it?" The history of religion (particularly Islam, Judaism, and Christianity) are very much involved in the history of the Western world. That would be like teaching a class about American history and skipping over the part about the Industrial Revolution.

If I have to explain how teaching one that does not believe or want to hear is FORCED, then you have more problems than I can help you with.

peace
 
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