What should my T be to start PCT?

[telewacker]

I'm planning a 12 week cycle of Test E at 500mg pw. My natty is 735 ng/dl. I will take bloods at the end of my cycle and again after I finish my cycle, I'm thinking two weeks? What is the number at which I should start PCT? I'm also planning to start HCG simultaneously with my first pin. Should I continue right to the end of the cycle?

 

[lukiss96]

Perfect scenario would be, is to start with enanthate and by week 9 switch over to propionate at 100mg eod (350mg/week) till the end of your cycle, that way you would be able to start your pct by day 5-7 of ceasing your injections.

Now, I know most are not willing to do so and maybe you as a beginner (I assume?) maybe afraid of injections or may not have the possibility to get TP.

The answer to your question is pretty simple, it takes 5 half lives of the drug for it to be almost out. Now two weeks as you say, you're still left with 125mg and that's TRT amount, you think your body is gonna start recovering? I doubt it, there are studies that show no matter your T dose, the suppression of endogenous testosterone is very similar.

So to answer your question, which I shouldn't and you should do more of a research on your own before you get in to it!! I'd wait at least 3 weeks before I would start PCT.

 

[Jin23]

Perfect scenario would be, is to start with enanthate and by week 9 switch over to propionate at 100mg eod (350mg/week) till the end of your cycle, that way you would be able to start your pct by day 5-7 of ceasing your injections.

Now, I know most are not willing to do so and maybe you as a beginner (I assume?) maybe afraid of injections or may not have the possibility to get TP.

The answer to your question is pretty simple, it takes 5 half lives of the drug for it to be almost out. Now two weeks as you say, you're still left with 125mg and that's TRT amount, you think your body is gonna start recovering? I doubt it, there are studies that show no matter your T dose, the suppression of endogenous testosterone is very similar.

So to answer your question, which I shouldn't and you should do more of a research on your own before you get in to it!! I'd wait at least 3 weeks before I would start PCT.

While that is a good tactic in order to minimize time under suppression and to make the most out of your cycle under that time, it does have one negative; the sudden hormone crash will lead to more sides, making it harder to push through the pct time period.

I used to advocate this approach my self, and would still recommend it to somebody who is worried about time under suppression, but me personally, I hate the sudden hormone crash and much rather let the long ester clear out gradually. So to each his own.

OP; your T levels should be low, very low, like hypogonadal low < 200 ng/dl. The closer to zero the better. If you haven't been on cycle that long, chances are your hypothalamus will start producing gnrh and pituitary LH before your androgen levels are zero. If you have been using hcg, hopefully, it shouldn't be that much of a problem, as your cycle wasn't that suppressive seeing as you only used a moderate amount of test. Just don't go overboard with SERMs and you shouldn't feel like complete crap.

 

[telewacker]

Perfect scenario would be, is to start with enanthate and by week 9 switch over to propionate at 100mg eod (350mg/week) till the end of your cycle, that way you would be able to start your pct by day 5-7 of ceasing your injections.

Now, I know most are not willing to do so and maybe you as a beginner (I assume?) maybe afraid of injections or may not have the possibility to get TP.

The answer to your question is pretty simple, it takes 5 half lives of the drug for it to be almost out. Now two weeks as you say, you're still left with 125mg and that's TRT amount, you think your body is gonna start recovering? I doubt it, there are studies that show no matter your T dose, the suppression of endogenous testosterone is very similar.

So to answer your question, which I shouldn't and you should do more of a research on your own before you get in to it!! I'd wait at least 3 weeks before I would start PCT.

No not my first cycle but it's been a while and frankly I've forgotten some details. I mentioned the blood test at two weeks, not necessarily starting PCT, but getting an idea of what my numbers are relative to the numbers at the end of my cycle.

 

[lukiss96]

It could be it guys, I don't even advise pct, if you're serious you stay on (cruise) if you just want to have fun and then depression rollercoaster, I guess pct is ok. Not serious in my opinion. To each his own, I guess. I think I have answered the question and that's how I would do it, if I would do pct.

it's the game and that's how I play it.

 

[amindzeye]

It could be it guys, I don't even advise pct, if you're serious you stay on (cruise) if you just want to have fun and then depression rollercoaster, I guess pct is ok. Not serious in my opinion. To each his own, I guess. I think I have answered the question and that's how I would do it, if I would do pct.

it's the game and that's how I play it.

I think it's better for everyone to find out for themselves if they're prone to the negative side effects of pct... During my first pct, I only had one day where I felt "out of sorts". Other than that, it wasn't grueling or miserable, etc. I'll be starting my second pct in three weeks. To see if I'm one of the lucky ones that doesn't feel like shit during pct. If it turns out I don't feel miserable during pct, then why not keep cycling instead of blast and cruising? Though I may have been depressed for a long time, and just didn't notice any mental changes also...I won't rule that out either...

 

[lukiss96]

I think it's better for everyone to find out for themselves if they're prone to the negative side effects of pct... During my first pct, I only had one day where I felt "out of sorts". Other than that, it wasn't grueling or miserable, etc. I'll be starting my second pct in three weeks. To see if I'm one of the lucky ones that doesn't feel like shit during pct. If it turns out I don't feel miserable during pct, then why not keep cycling instead of blast and cruising? Though I may have been depressed for a long time, and just didn't notice any mental changes also...I won't rule that out either...

It all comes down to the fact that at the end you're going to regress back to because your natural testosterone won't allow you to hold supraphysiological amounts of muscle, it's not myth, it's the fact. A lot of guys that "cycle" just believe they are healthier when actually that's not the case. Not to mention they just exist in that time frame where they wait for their next big cycle. Not hating, just saying how it is.

Everyone who's serious cruises, no way to get around it. Even trt amounts of testosterone can hold much more compared to a natural, do some research if you don't think so, you will see for yourself. I'm done here.

P.S I'm not advocating it, I'm not even advocating using anything at all.

 

[Jin23]

A lot of guys that "cycle" just believe they are healthier when actually that's not the case.

This, however, is a big generalisation, wouldn't you agree?

 

[lukiss96]

All I'm saying is that if you touch steroids, you should stop fucking around and use trt/cruise or else you're just spinning your wheels. No one that looks jacked cycles, all the guys on youtube and here too, all the "cyclists" only manage to look good "on" not off. Go watch Doucette and Derek, they will tell you that trt is superior to natty. Why are we even arguing here?

 

[Jin23]

All I'm saying is that if you touch steroids, you should stop fucking around and use trt/cruise or else you're just spinning your wheels. No one that looks jacked cycles, all the guys on youtube and here too, all the "cyclists" only manage to look good "on" not off. Go watch Doucette and Derek, they will tell you that trt is superior to natty. Why are we even arguing here?

I was talking about the "healthier" part bro, not this. With this is wholeheartedly agree. Using aas in a cycling fashion does make sense but only for fat loss in order to retain muscle mass. But if you cycle for bulking, then you are in a world of disappointment.

 

[lukiss96]

I was talking about the "healthier" part bro, not this. With this is wholeheartedly agree. Using aas in a cycling fashion does make sense but only for fat loss in order to retain muscle mass. But if you cycle for bulking, then you are in a world of disappointment.

Oh, on the healthier part, I don't have proof or something, but it's because of serms like clomid as many people experience side effects from these, especially at the crazy dosages parroted around. It's just my opinion that anti cancer drugs are not healthy, plus the hormonal rollercoaster and depression that many suffer during the pct, I know I did and quite a bit of people that I know did experience it too.

However, when we consider the fact that proper cruise/trt would be same as true replacement therapy like 100-200mg, with individual factors dialed, I do believe it's quite a bit healthier not to abuse serms and not to experience hormonal swings as trt/cruise will put you at high but still normal testosterone level.

As I said I have no proof and this is my personal view and how I see things. There are many camps, so we don't have to agree on everything.

 

[Jin23]

Oh, on the healthier part, I don't have proof or something, but it's because of serms like clomid as many people experience side effects from these, especially at the crazy dosages parroted around. It's just my opinion that anti cancer drugs are not healthy, plus the hormonal rollercoaster and depression that many suffer during the pct, I know I did and quite a bit of people that I know did experience it too.

However, when we consider the fact that proper cruise/trt would be same as true replacement therapy like 100-200mg, with individual factors dialed, I do believe it's quite a bit healthier not to abuse serms and not to experience hormonal swings as trt/cruise will put you at high but still normal testosterone level.

As I said I have no proof and this is my personal view and how I see things. There are many camps, so we don't have to agree on everything.

No, I agree with all that you just said actually.

There are, however, sides of the coin that are missed. And that's what I meant with the "generalisation" statement. One being, that just testosterone doesn't replace all the hormones that you need. And hcg is not pulsatiled as endogenous LH is every 2h. And that has a purpose Hcg also has other neurobiological functions that you may not want and LH also has it's functions outside of leydig cell stimulation, for instance memory. Just finding the right neurosteroid ballance, for instance, is a pita with hcg. Anyway, it's better to have an automated, balanced system, that works with the bodies homeostasis principle, then forcing it to work in an mechanic analogous way. We tend to simplify biology to much, that's all.

Trt is a last resort for hypogonadal male's and it's certainly not as good as having a normal working hpta system. All I'm sayin ... But cycling is also awful for all the reasons you are saying.

 

[lukiss96]

No, I agree with all that you just said actually.

There are, however, sides of the coin that are missed. And that's what I meant with the "generalisation" statement. One being, that just testosterone doesn't replace all the hormones that you need. And hcg is not pulsatiled as endogenous LH is every 2h. And that has a purpose Hcg also has other neurobiological functions that you may not want and LH also has it's functions outside of leydig cell stimulation, for instance memory. Just finding the right neurosteroid ballance, for instance, is a pita with hcg. Anyway, it's better to have an automated, balanced system, that works with the bodies homeostasis principle, then forcing it to work in an mechanic analogous way. We tend to simplify biology to much, that's all.

Trt is a last resort for hypogonadal male's and it's certainly not as good as having a normal working hpta system. All I'm sayin ... But cycling is also awful for all the reasons you are saying.

Yes, I agree, I have done my research as I'm in this game for over 5 years, I knew the risk vs reward and all, I almost can relate to that Derek guy from MPMD. Pretty much him and I agree on a lot of stuff, we have similar experience and end result, well I just find he thinks mostly the same way of course we don't talk lol.

What you say about hcg is true, I agree and human body is complex mechanism to say the least.

However, we humans are driven by more is better mentality and who can blame us with the world we are living in? We use steroids because of the vanity, not health. It's best to stay natural and never fuck with your body, except unless as you say if you medically truly need it. I'm vain fuck, I admit. That's why I took steroids and never looked back, but I don't blast anymore and just cruise/trt nowadays and feel good and happy with my look.

 

[amindzeye]

but I don't blast anymore and just cruise/trt nowadays and feel good and happy with my look.

But it took blasting to get there though, right?

 

[lukiss96]

But it took blasting to get there though, right?

Like I said I took steroids, so yes it means blasting was part of my life for some time. I would lie if I say it took me TRT to walk nowadays 100kg at 12-13%. I actually did regret it for some time, I was 23 at that time wanting to be natural again, but then I tried to come off and I just said to myself I like this lifestyle better.

 

[ManK]

Oh, on the healthier part, I don't have proof or something, but it's because of serms like clomid as many people experience side effects from these, especially at the crazy dosages parroted around. It's just my opinion that anti cancer drugs are not healthy, plus the hormonal rollercoaster and depression that many suffer during the pct, I know I did and quite a bit of people that I know did experience it too.

However, when we consider the fact that proper cruise/trt would be same as true replacement therapy like 100-200mg, with individual factors dialed, I do believe it's quite a bit healthier not to abuse serms and not to experience hormonal swings as trt/cruise will put you at high but still normal testosterone level.

As I said I have no proof and this is my personal view and how I see things. There are many camps, so we don't have to agree on everything.

Ok.
BUT if you don't have probem with high HCT......
If you have problem with high HCT you must choose cycles or trt: both can't be selected (sigh...)