Why you should be running T4 with your GH

[Eman]

Do you just spout random shit stone?

Yes, I tend to think he does. I remember having a debate with Stone in a GH thread a while back... I think Mands and I both had a headache from him after it was said and done...

I vividly remembered this post from that encounter with him:

if it weren't for your so called Broscience no one would be big and doing gear

And now he seems to be taking the opposite stand?

So yeah, random as can be.

 

[David Hudson]

Great article! This explains why the Dr was trying to push T3 on me while on hgh even though my levels where fine! I was already on test, deca, hcg, hgh... not to mention the other things that go with trt! I said no way cause I was on enough stuff!! Had I only known.....

 

[stone988]

LOL not taking another stand, just making a point. You guys know it all right? You guys are both huge right? make great gains? have proof that you even workout? Pictures?? oh wait no you dont!! for whatever reason. But you will cry and say we need to see blood work, then say ah wait post your baseline or some nonsense! but you wont even post a fucking bicep picture LMAO. You guys are paperwork bodybuilders. lol come on shut me up!! post some pictures and show how elite you are, how you have made such tremendous gains through all your knowledge and hard work. You guys are just random Bullshitters! Prove me wrong I will be the first to take my hat off to you!!

 

[stone988]

Personally I would be very careful with anything that manipulates the thyroid, it is not something you want to play with.

 

[TRT]

@stone988
What do you care if the info we got is good or not? Why don't you tell us what your experience is and data you've collected instead of bashing us with ours?

Oh, and if you keep saying random shit you'll be marked as a troll if not already.

 

[TRT]

@colossus25
Thank you for posting that. I love reading that stuff. True or not.

@Michael Scallywag MD
Thank you for posting. I've never asked anyone this but I've read 1000 of your posts...who are you?

 

[colossus25]

LOL not taking another stand, just making a point. You guys know it all right? You guys are both huge right? make great gains? have proof that you even workout? Pictures?? oh wait no you dont!! for whatever reason. But you will cry and say we need to see blood work, then say ah wait post your baseline or some nonsense! but you wont even post a fucking bicep picture LMAO. You guys are paperwork bodybuilders. lol come on shut me up!! post some pictures and show how elite you are, how you have made such tremendous gains through all your knowledge and hard work. You guys are just random Bullshitters! Prove me wrong I will be the first to take my hat off to you!!

Lmaoo so posting up questions and research about AAS makes us know it alls? I have plenty of proof on here that i workout and quite frankly you're tiny next to me. Only an idiot would be this offended by science and research.

 

[Eman]

LOL not taking another stand, just making a point. You guys know it all right? You guys are both huge right? make great gains? have proof that you even workout? Pictures?? oh wait no you dont!! for whatever reason. But you will cry and say we need to see blood work, then say ah wait post your baseline or some nonsense! but you wont even post a fucking bicep picture LMAO. You guys are paperwork bodybuilders. lol come on shut me up!! post some pictures and show how elite you are, how you have made such tremendous gains through all your knowledge and hard work. You guys are just random Bullshitters! Prove me wrong I will be the first to take my hat off to you!!

I've never seen someone say so much and still manage to say so little. I think your purpose here is mostly to argue obscure points... If I said the sky is blue you'd disagree and then demand a bicep pic for validation.

 

[David Hudson]

Personally I would be very careful with anything that manipulates the thyroid, it is not something you want to play with.

I agree! That's why I refused to take it.... just didn't feel right!

 

[colossus25]

I've never seen someone say so much and still manage to say so little. I think your purpose here is mostly to argue obscure points... If I said the sky is blue you'd disagree and then demand a bicep pic for validation.

REAR DOUBLE BICEP OR GTFO

 

[Dr JIM]

Thyroid Hormone + Growth Hormone – If You Aren’t Using T4 with Your GH, You’re Not Doing It Right

References:

GrowthFactors. 1990;2(2-3):99-109.Interaction of TSH, insulin and insulin-like growth factors in regulating thyroid growth and function. Eggo MC, Bachrach LK, Burrow GN.

F, Rumpler M, Klaushofer K 1994 Thyroid hormones increase insulin-like growth factor mRNA levels in the clonal osteoblastic cell line MC3T3- E1. FEBS Lett 345: 67–70

Relationship of the rate of transcription to the level of nuclear thyroid hormone-receptor complexes.J Biol Chem. 1984 May 25;259(10):6284-91. Yaffe BM, Samuels HH.

Thyroid morphology and function in adults with untreated isolated growth hormone deficiency. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2006 Mar;91(3):860-4. Epub 2006 Jan 4.

Eur J Endocrinol.1995 Dec;133(6):646-53.Influence of thyroid hormones on the regulation of growth hormone secretion. Giustina A, Wehrenberg WB.

Binoux M, Faivre-Bauman A, Lassarre C, Tixier-Vidal A 1985 Triiodothyronine stimulates the production of insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I) by fetal hypothalamus cells cultured in serum free medium. Dev Brain Res 21:319–323

Eur J Endocrinol. 1996 May;134(5):563-7.Insulin-like growth factor I alters peripheral thyroid hormone metabolism in humans: comparison with growth hormone.Hussain MA, Schmitz O, Jorgensen JO, Christiansen JS, Weeke J, Schmid C, Froesch ER

Harakawa S, Yamashita S, Tobinaga T, Matsuo K, Hirayu H, Izumi M, Nagataki S, Melmed S. In vivo regulation of hepatic insulin-like growth factor-1 messenger ribonucleic acids with thyroid hormone. Endocrinol Jpn 37(2):205-11, 1990

Hochberg Z, Bick T, Harel Z Alterations of human growth hormone binding by rat liver membranes during hypo- and hyperthyroidism. Endocrinology 126(1):325-9, 1990

Matsuo K, Yamashita S, Niwa M, Kurihara M, Harakawa S, Izumi M, Nagataki S, Melmed S Thyroid hormone regulates rat pituitary insulin-like growth factor-I receptors. Endocrinology 126(1):550-4, 1990

The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism Vol. 88, No. 11 5221-5226, 2003. High Dose Growth Hormone Exerts an Anabolic Effect at Rest and during Exercise in Endurance-Trained Athletes M. L. Healy, J. Gibney, D. L. Russell-Jones, C. Pentecost, P. Croos, P. H. Sönksen and A. M. Umpleby

J Hepatol. 1996 Mar;24(3):313-9. Effects of long-term growth hormone (GH) and triiodothyronine (T3) administration on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance in normal man.Wolthers T, Grofte T, Moller N, Vilstrup H, Jorgensen JO

Huang, SA. Physiology and pathophysiology of type 3 deiodinase in humans. Thyroid. 2005 Aug;15(8):875-81. Review.

Hernandez. A. Structure and function of the type 3 deiodinase gene.Thyroid. 2005 Aug;15(8):865-74. Review.

F, Rumpler M, Klaushofer K 1994 Thyroid hormones increase insulin-like growth factor mRNA levels in the clonal osteoblastic cell line MC3T3- E1. FEBS Lett 345: 67–70

[emoji767] 2005 Par Deus Inc. All Rights Reserved. Reprinted with permission.

How prophetic not a single one of these references involves T3/T4 supplementation
in patients using GH!

And several researchers have investigated this very issue - the bottom line - GH supplementation naturally increases T3/T4 production and only those whom are "hypothyroid" require the addition of thyroxine.

Fact is thyroxine supplementation in euthyroid patients was found to be counterproductive as it significantly limited the natural production of endogenous thyroxine.

What is the current recommendation; baseline Thytoid Fct Studies (TSH and T3/T4) should be obtained BEFORE and several weeks AFTER GH supplementation.

Such testing can be critical in the small subset of the population with "borderline hypothyroidism", as these folk may develop overt hypothyroidism when GH is supplemented!

Bottom line - once again labs remain the cornerstone of rationale, cost effective and risk adverse hormonal therapy

 

[colossus25]

How prophetic not a single one of these references involves T3/T4 supplementation
in patients using GH!

And several researchers have investigated this very issue - the bottom line - GH supplementation naturally increases T3/T4 production and only those whom are "hypothyroid" require the addition of thyroxine.

Fact is thyroxine supplementation in euthyroid patients was found to be counterproductive as it significantly limited the natural production of endogenous thyroxine.

What is the current recommendation; baseline Thytoid Fct Studies (TSH and T3/T4) should be obtained BEFORE and several weeks AFTER GH supplementation

I was waiting for your input on this Jim thank you.

So you don't believe there is any possible benefit to supraphysiological t4 while running gh? I know there are practically zero studies to back this up but hypothetically you don't believe there could be any note worthy interaction?

 

[pumpingiron22]

Great article. Do you mind posting the link so I can save it.
Thank you.

 

[Dr JIM]

I was waiting for your input on this Jim thank you.

So you don't believe there is any possible benefit to supraphysiological t4 while running gh? I know there are practically zero studies to back this up but hypothetically you don't believe there could be any note worthy interaction?

There's a plethora of studies on the use thyroxine at supraphysiological dosages (many involve the use of thyroxine as a bariatric agent, while some are derived from hyperthyroid patients)) but NONE are good.

The list of complications ranged from overt catabolism, to an increase in TBF, and cardiac failure!

Consequently AR's unsubstantiated opinion folk running GH are somehow "missing out" if they are not also supplementing thyroxine is not only "Bro-science" but its potentially dangerous.

I said dangerous and I mean dangerous bc thyroxine "toxicity" becomes even more apparent with chronic use, as in months to years, the same duration most folk run GH!

 

[Dr JIM]

I'm not suggesting T3/T4 has no place in competitive BB - but blindly telling others they are missing out unless they are supplementing thyroxine with GH --------

Oh wait, lets see, hmm did AR also include a list of WELL substantiated T3/T4 adverse effects ----NOPE -----

Oh and what about "recovery" after prolonged thyroxine use NOPE ----

My point - I'd like to believe the first question asked by those on this forum is "what is the risk" BEFORE even considering "the benefits"!

JIM

 

[stone988]

I've never seen someone say so much and still manage to say so little. I think your purpose here is mostly to argue obscure points... If I said the sky is blue you'd disagree and then demand a bicep pic for validation.

Blah blah blah I called you out you aint got shit. Anyhow no worries I guess I will never win that one. People like to hide and whatever. You trolled me! I was simply giving an opinion which trust me is far more experienced then yours. I am sure we probably agree with most things. If you want to run t3 or t4 with your hgh go for it! Just be careful.

 

[stone988]

I'm not suggesting T3/T4 has no place in competitive BB - but blindly telling others they are missing out unless they are supplementing thyroxine with GH --------

Oh wait, lets see, hmm did AR also include a list of WELL substantiated T3/T4 adverse effects ----NOPE -----

Oh and what about "recovery" after prolonged thyroxine use NOPE ----

My point - I'd like to believe the first question asked by those on this forum is "what is the risk" BEFORE even considering "the benefits"!

JIM

You could poke holes in this "theory" all day long. You make valid points

 

[stone988]

Lmaoo so posting up questions and research about AAS makes us know it alls? I have plenty of proof on here that i workout and quite frankly you're tiny next to me. Only an idiot would be this offended by science and research.

Here is the only proof that matters, post pictures of your results! yea you cant and you wont. No worries Im not surprised.

 

[colossus25]

Here is the only proof that matters, post pictures of your results! yea you cant and you wont. No worries Im not surprised.

But i have lol

 

[stone988]

@stone988
What do you care if the info we got is good or not? Why don't you tell us what your experience is and data you've collected instead of bashing us with ours?

Oh, and if you keep saying random shit you'll be marked as a troll if not already.

I care because Ive seen countess people waste years and years fucking off and not making gains, hurting themselves and basically wasting a lot of money and health. And Ill say whatever the fuck I want!! If you dont like it dont read it. What are some old cunt that yells at kids on a school bus? Data! I personally know 2 people, both competitors that have fucked up their thyroid messing around with t3/ t4. Info is great, constructive and possessive criticism is what a discussion is. Isnt this a discussion forum?