Why you should be running T4 with your GH

[Jeffg353]

Well I was suppose to do a GH,tren, slin cycle but might be getting a government job and they'll

I have a govt job and they only tested for the usual suspects like street drugs. I don't know what they're going to test u for, might get into a more detailed test depending on the position, but hope it helps ease ur nerves a little. Good luck getting the position.

 

[TRT]

I have a govt job and they only tested for the usual suspects like street drugs. I don't know what they're going to test u for, might get into a more detailed test depending on the position, but hope it helps ease ur nerves a little. Good luck getting the position.

Thank you. [emoji4] I rather not risk it. I got my whole life to cycle. Well, I am cycling just not the detectable stuff. Lol I didn't wanna ask cause that might look suspicious. They'll send me down to the court house where this 300lb big Irish dude will watch me go pee-pee. My job now did. I like to break the awkwardness by telling him not to get any funny ideas. Lol

 

[mands]

Would the t4 and mk677 be a good combo? If so, how much t4 daily?

Oh definitely this is all anecdotal really when it comes down to it, I believe he goes over that in the article as well. I think its a pretty good well thought out thesis though with very good supporting evidence. @ChestRockwell is a big proponent of running thyroid hormones with GH from what I've read in his post, im curious to see what his opinion is on this.

I usually run t4 for the first 6 weeks of my GH blast. I do so for lethargy as it seems to help me personally(maybe placebo

Growth hormone administration stimulates energy expenditure and extrathyroidal conversion of thyroxine to triiodothyronine in a dose-dependent manner and suppresses circadian thyrotrophin levels: studies in GH-deficient adults.
Jørgensen JO1, Møller J, Laursen T, Orskov H, Christiansen JS, Weeke J.
Author information

Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
The impact of exogenous GH on thyroid function remains controversial although most data add support to a stimulation of peripheral T4 to T3 conversion. For further elucidation we evaluated iodothyronine and circadian TSH levels in GH-deficient patients as part of a GH dose-response study.

PATIENTS:
Eight GH-deficient adults, who received stable T4 substitution due to central hypothyroidism; two patients, who were euthyroid without T4 supplementation were studied separately.

DESIGN:
All patients were initially studied after at least 4 weeks without GH followed by 3 consecutive 4-week periods in fixed order during which they received daily doses of 1, 2 and 4 IU of GH/m2 body surface area. The patients were hospitalized for 24 hours at the end of each period.

MEASUREMENTS:
Circulating total and free concentrations of T4 and T3, total rT3 and TSH were measured once at the end of each study period. Circadian TSH levels were recorded during the period without GH and during GH treatment with 2 IU GH.

RESULTS:
Highly significant GH dose-dependent increases in total and free T3 and a reduction in rT3 were observed. The T3/T4 ratio also increased with increasing GH dosages (P < 0.001). In seven patients subnormal T3 levels were recorded in the period off GH, despite T4 levels well within the normal range. Resting energy expenditure also increased and correlated with free T3 levels (r = 0.47, P < 0.05). The circadian TSH levels exhibited a significant nocturnal increase during the period without GH, whereas GH therapy significantly suppressed the TSH levels and blunted the circadian rhythm (mean TSH levels (mU/l) 0.546 +/- 0.246 (no GH) vs 0.066 +/- 0.031 (2 IU GH) (P < 0.05)). The two euthyroid non-T4 substituted patients exhibited qualitatively similar changes in all parameters.

CONCLUSIONS:
GH administration stimulated peripheral T4 to T3 conversion in a dose-dependent manner. Serum T3 levels were subnormal despite T4 substitution when the patients were off GH but normalized with GH therapy. Energy expenditure increased with GH and correlated with free T3 levels. GH caused a significant blunting of serum TSH. These findings suggest that GH plays a distinct role in the physiological regulation of thyroid function in general, and of peripheral T4 metabolism in particular.

As far as MK-677 I don't use it as I'm not tired on MK like I am GH.

I do know around the 8 week of mark of using MK that Serum Leptin levels, free t3 and TSH levels are increased.

Discrepancy between serum leptin values and total body fat in response to the oral growth hormone secretagogue MK-677.
Randomized controlled trial
Svensson J, et al. Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 1999.
Show full citation
Abstract
OBJECTIVE: Growth hormone (GH) treatment decreases total body fat while this effect has not yet been documented for the oral GH secretagogue MK-677. In the present study, the effects of MK-677 treatment on serum levels of leptin, thyroid hormones and testosterone were determined.

DESIGN: This was a randomized, double-blind, and parallel study. Twenty-four healthy obese males, 19-49 years of age, with body mass index (BMI) > 30 kg/m2 and a waist:hip ratio > 0.95, were treated with MK-677 (25 mg/day; n = 12) or placebo (n = 12) for 8 weeks.

RESULTS: MK-677 treatment increased serum leptin levels and leptin/body fat ratio at 2 weeks of treatment (P < 0.05 vs. placebo) but no significant change was observed at 8 weeks. An increase in serum free 3, 5, 3'-triiodothyronine (free T3) was not detected until 8 weeks of MK-677 treatment (P < 0.05 vs. placebo). Peak serum thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH) concentration after MK-677 administration was similar to that after placebo administration at initiation of treatment and at 2 weeks. At 8 weeks of MK-677 treatment, mean peak serum TSH concentration was increased (P < 0.05 vs. placebo) although it remained within the normal range. Serum peak values of luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) were similar after MK-677 and placebo administration. MK-677 treatment reduced serum total testosterone (P < 0.05 vs. placebo) although total testosterone/sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) ratio (an index of free testosterone) was not changed.

CONCLUSION: Treatment with the oral GH secretagogue MK-677 transiently increased serum leptin levels and leptin/body fat ratio at 2 weeks of treatment, and increased serum free T3 after 8 weeks. These results indicate that MK-677 treatment is able to affect circulating factors of importance for adipose tissue mass and fuel metabolism.

PMID
10468903 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

mands

 

[Jeffg353]

Thank you. [emoji4] I rather not risk it. I got my whole life to cycle. Well, I am cycling just not the detectable stuff. Lol I didn't wanna ask cause that might look suspicious. They'll send me down to the court house where this 300lb big Irish dude will watch me go pee-pee. My job now did. I like to break the awkwardness by telling him not to get any funny ideas. Lol

I had this super flamboyant gay guy for my physical n blood screening but no one was in the bathroom for the urine collection. Thank god cuz he prob had plenty of funny ideas

 

[trackstar19]

What kind of body type do you have? I'm an ectomorph for sure.

I was an ectomorph growing up - always lean and ripped but small. I used to be able to get away with eating tons of carbs but unfortunately my insulin sensitivity isn't what it used
To be. I time my carbs and macros so precisely, though, and I don't mind. So I have my small clavicles and round 3D muscle bellies at 217lbs and 7% BF right now. Gunning down to 4.5-5% and might hop into North Americans

 

[TRT]

I was an ectomorph growing up - always lean and ripped but small. I used to be able to get away with eating tons of carbs but unfortunately my insulin sensitivity isn't what it used
To be. I time my carbs and macros so precisely, though, and I don't mind. So I have my small clavicles and round 3D muscle bellies at 217lbs and 7% BF right now. Gunning down to 4.5-5% and might hop into North Americans

Same here. Small calves and small muscle bellies.

 

[ChestRockwell]

I'm still not taking a definitive stance in the debate but one of the potential ironies surrounding the advice to take exogenous thyroid during GH blasts is that hyperthyroidism is associated with decreased GH-binding activity, likely caused by reduced GHR processing abilities.

 

[mands]

I'm still not taking a definitive stance in the debate but one of the potential ironies surrounding the advice to take exogenous thyroid during GH blasts is that hyperthyroidism is associated with decreased GH-binding activity, likely caused by reduced GHR processing abilities.

I see where you are going here. While adding exogenous GH won't TSH decrease or potential be blunted?

mands

 

[ChestRockwell]

I see where you are going here. While adding exogenous GH won't TSH decrease or potential be blunted?

mands

TSH normally decreases (depends upon whether pituitary function is intact or not) which is what some actually hypothesize is the primary mechanism driving the increased peripheral conversion of T4-T3.

 

[stone988]

No fancy drop lighting and no filter just me right now a couple of months back on gear after being off of gear for over 8 months and out of the gym for 4 months. I could post one of my pics from last year but that would be bullshit but many here have seen my old Avi anyways. Just wait till i cut champ. You know how i achieve these results so rapidly and efficiently? By making it an absolute priority to doing as much research as i can and applying it to my training and protocol. View attachment 72916

You look great! It take a lot of guts to post pictures. Hats off to you! I achieved and still achieve my results from, hard work, sacrifice, dedication, being consistent, and focusing on the right things also listening to my body. Research is important of course, but no one got big in a note book, if they did all the dorks on here would be posting their pictures too.

 

[mands]

You look great! It take a lot of guts to post pictures. Hats off to you! I achieved and still achieve my results from, hard work, sacrifice, dedication, being consistent, and focusing on the right things also listening to my body. Research is important of course, but no one got big in a note book, if they did all the dorks on here would be posting their pictures too.

Damn us dorks and our tiny bodies. lol

mands

 

[ChestRockwell]

Damn us dorks and our tiny bodies. lol

mands

Seriously, if only we spent less time dissecting studies and actually went to the gym...can you imagine?

 

[mands]

Seriously, if only we spent less time dissecting studies and actually went to the gym...can you imagine?

My thoughts exactly!!!

mands

 

[Storm127]

What dosage of t4 is recommended? What are the factors to consider? Hgh dose? Age? Body weight? Any timing considerations like with insulin?
Saw the earlier post to run it on the front end to prevent lethargy.

 

[Marcus]

What dosage of t4 is recommended? What are the factors to consider? Hgh dose? Age? Body weight? Any timing considerations like with insulin?
Saw the earlier post to run it on the front end to prevent lethargy.

I was 32, 5'11, 220-230lbs during GH run recently, took 200mcg of T4 once in the morning fasted and my thyroid levels came back just out of the top range on 2 different tests at that dosage. I moved it down to 100mcg after 2nd bloodwork and felt great, but didn't repeat labs again.

In terms of timing with insulin, I don't have enough first-hand knowledge to answer. My dosage ranged from 4-8iu per day split in 2 and 3iu doses. Hope this helps a bit. All labwork is in the lab testing for reference

 

[gobigorgohome1218]

So just to clarify, you're saying its very dependant on the user and can vary from person to person correct? Or am i misinterpreting the data and your post??

In my opinion it's a good idea to determine your thyroid function/levels prior to starting Gh and then checking once you've hit a maintenance dose. It's clear that Gh requires normal thyroid function but as Scally wrote above excess levels or hyperthyroidism is deleterious on many levels....least of which is muscle hypertrophy. The only way to truly guide adding or adjusting gear is to check levels when you've reached a steady-state.

 

[JackTorrance]

That's a bit of luck then! I'm already on thyroid replacement with T4

I'm only on 50 mcg but that corrects my levels. I was started on 25 mcg. Running 200 mcg etc. may be excessive for some people.

 

[Jeffg353]

In my opinion it's a good idea to determine your thyroid function/levels prior to starting Gh and then checking once you've hit a maintenance dose. It's clear that Gh requires normal thyroid function but as Scally wrote above excess levels or hyperthyroidism is deleterious on many levels....least of which is muscle hypertrophy. The only way to truly guide adding or adjusting gear is to check levels when you've reached a steady-state.

Make a great point. Think many fail to realize this fact especially if they already have thyroid issues before starting GH.