Metformin and it's impact on IGF-1

[jackmeoff1]

Metformin seems to be an amazing drug for purposes of increasing insulin sensitivity but it is clearly documented that it inhibits IGF-1 release.

I can't make heads or tails of the exactly how significant this is based on the studies I am reading. Does it inhibit IGF-1 release by 100%, like no IGF1 is being released? Is it a small margin? Will HGH mitigate it?

Since I know we have some smart guys on meso, even a few doctors, I thought I would ask this over here. I asked on other forums and didn't really get any insight.

 

[Wunderpus]

Berberine is a safer option with similar effects. 500mg's a day of berberine is oftentimes enough for type 2 diabetics to avoid needing metformin...

According to Dr. Serrano, metformin is likely to be toxic to mitochondria, as well.

 

[Evom1]

Berberine is a safer option with similar effects. 500mg's a day of berberine is oftentimes enough for type 2 diabetics to avoid needing metformin...

According to Dr. Serrano, metformin is likely to be toxic to mitochondria, as well.

Can you elaborate more on this? I hadn't heard of it being so powerful. What about for a non diabetic looking to go from a fasted bg of 110 down to 75-80 range? Is it effective there or only for higher bg?

 

[Evom1]

Berberine is a safer option with similar effects. 500mg's a day of berberine is oftentimes enough for type 2 diabetics to avoid needing metformin...

According to Dr. Serrano, metformin is likely to be toxic to mitochondria, as well.

Also how does it impact bg? In a basic sense does it increase insulin sensitivity or does it hinder the absorption of carbs?

I'd looked at the product Glucocil but found out it works by decreasing the absorption of carbs which would not be beneficial for us

 

[Wunderpus]

Can you elaborate more on this? I hadn't heard of it being so powerful. What about for a non diabetic looking to go from a fasted bg of 110 down to 75-80 range? Is it effective there or only for higher bg?

This is likely to answer your questions- Efficacy of Berberine in Patients with Type 2 Diabetes

"Compared with metformin, berberine exhibited an identical effect in the regulation of glucose metabolism, such as HbA1c, FBG, PBG, fasting insulin and postprandial insulin. In the regulation of lipid metabolism, berberine activity is better than metformin. "

Another good resource- berberine diabetes information

 

[Evom1]

This is likely to answer your questions- Efficacy of Berberine in Patients with Type 2 Diabetes

"Compared with metformin, berberine exhibited an identical effect in the regulation of glucose metabolism, such as HbA1c, FBG, PBG, fasting insulin and postprandial insulin. In the regulation of lipid metabolism, berberine activity is better than metformin. "

Another good resource- berberine diabetes information

Perfect, thank you very much!!

 

[jackmeoff1]

Berberine is a safer option with similar effects. 500mg's a day of berberine is oftentimes enough for type 2 diabetics to avoid needing metformin...

According to Dr. Serrano, metformin is likely to be toxic to mitochondria, as well.

Berberine has the same impact on IGF1 though.

 

[Wunderpus]

Berberine has the same impact on IGF1 though.

I honestly have no idea if it does, or does not. I'd have to look into it.

However, based on the folks I know who run berberine and/or metformin, they don't physiologically appear to have any lack of IGF-1.... Most monsters I know run one or the other.

 

[Eman]

Berberine has the same impact on IGF1 though.

Do you have any literature you can cite on this? Berberine had been shown to increase igf1 expression.

It is possible for it to interfere with muscle hypertrophy, but not proven especially in athletes.

 

[jackmeoff1]

Do you have any literature you can cite on this? Berberine had been shown to increase igf1 expression.

It is possible for it to interfere with muscle hypertrophy, but not proven especially in athletes.

Well this study shows is actives AMPK:
Berberine improves glucose metabolism through induction of glycolysis. - PubMed - NCBI

This publication the physican outlines what happens to IGF-1 by way of activating AMPK:
Berberine: What It Is and Why I Take It | Sara Gottfried MD

"One result of activating AMPK is suppression of hepatic glucose output,so that insulin and IGF-1 levels are lower. Both berberine and metformin, (as mentioned previously, the drug commonly used for diabetes and PCOS), activate AMPK. "

 

[jackmeoff1]

I just can't understand exactly what this means. Like is the supression only a few points? The entire IGF1 release? My natural IGF-1 levels are low- low end of normal.

I started taking mk-677 (gh secretagogue) which bumped this by about 100 and put me on the high end and it was legit life changing. But my fasting BG is high (ish). Has only showed over 100 a few times (pre diabetic range) but it is usually high 90's which is kind of high. So I want to take metformin/berberine but if that blunts IGF1 what is the point?

I might just say fuck it and take insulin

 

[Evom1]

I just can't understand exactly what this means. Like is the supression only a few points? The entire IGF1 release? My natural IGF-1 levels are low- low end of normal.

I started taking mk-677 (gh secretagogue) which bumped this by about 100 and put me on the high end and it was legit life changing. But my fasting BG is high (ish). Has only showed over 100 a few times (pre diabetic range) but it is usually high 90's which is kind of high. So I want to take metformin/berberine but if that blunts IGF1 what is the point?

I might just say fuck it and take insulin

Why not run one for a month or two, get bloods and see how it impacts things?

 

[jackmeoff1]

Why not run one for a month or two, get bloods and see how it impacts things?

Exactly my plan. But I have been runing metformin for 2 weeks and I feel the complete opposite of insulin sensative right now. I feel completely flat and I am losing strength.

 

[Eman]

Well this study shows is actives AMPK:
Berberine improves glucose metabolism through induction of glycolysis. - PubMed - NCBI

This publication the physican outlines what happens to IGF-1 by way of activating AMPK:
Berberine: What It Is and Why I Take It | Sara Gottfried MD

"One result of activating AMPK is suppression of hepatic glucose output,so that insulin and IGF-1 levels are lower. Both berberine and metformin, (as mentioned previously, the drug commonly used for diabetes and PCOS), activate AMPK. "

Yeah, it has shown to activate AMPK but it's minor and, if you're lifting weights, it is shown to be quite negligible.

I might just say fuck it and take insulin

Why would you want to add insulin of all things? How about taking some things away from this to help yourself rather than add more drugs and problems?

I've taken berberine for a pretty long time... It hasn't hindered any hypertrophy or strength in any noticeable way. I don't know how much it's really affected BG but I've always been in a normal range even when taking +6iu of GH... I just like trying to work on insulin sensitivity. DNP, in my experience, created insulin sensitivity unlike anything I've ever experienced.

 

[SuperSwede]

Off topic but i get pretty bad in my stomach from berberine.

 

[jackmeoff1]

Why would you want to add insulin of all things? How about taking some things away from this to help yourself rather than add more drugs and problems?

Well did you see my previous comment regarding mk677? That is the thing that is creating the insulin resistance and as previously stated- the stuff was life changing. My shoulders are pretty fucked and the stuff got me back to training hard and heavy pain free. In addition, my insomnia has improved drastically as well as my digestion. And being able to get my waist leaner then it has been since age 18 in my middle age is not exactly something I want to part with either if I am being completely honest.

So as I see it I have two options. Stop Mk677 and go back to the suck of being middle aged, add a drug to mange BG like metformin OR insulin (I wasn't adding both) .

In the interim what I decided to do was give low dose metformin a shot. It already got my fasting BG back into the 90's . My plan is to try to drop that out and see how things go and make a decsision from there. As of my current research between metformin and insulin, insulin seems to be like a better option long term to to pair with athletic pursuits. I am just not certain how the studies play out for healthy people who are active.

 

[Eman]

Well did you see my previous comment regarding mk677? That is the thing that is creating the insulin resistance and as previously stated- the stuff was life changing. My shoulders are pretty fucked and the stuff got me back to training hard and heavy pain free. In addition, my insomnia has improved drastically as well as my digestion. And being able to get my waist leaner then it has been since age 18 in my middle age is not exactly something I want to part with either if I am being completely honest.

So as I see it I have two options. Stop Mk677 and go back to the suck of being middle aged, add a drug to mange BG like metformin OR insulin (I wasn't adding both) .

In the interim what I decided to do was give low dose metformin a shot. It already got my fasting BG back into the 90's . My plan is to try to drop that out and see how things go and make a decsision from there. As of my current research between metformin and insulin, insulin seems to be like a better option long term to to pair with athletic pursuits. I am just not certain how the studies play out for healthy people who are active.

So you're going to essentially treat yourself for diabetes to get better sleep, stay lean and rehab a shoulder?

I read what you said about MK... It still makes no sense why you'd choose to treat with insulin.

I'm out. Enjoy the life of a diabetic.

 

[jackmeoff1]

So you're going to essentially treat yourself for diabetes to get better sleep, stay lean and rehab a shoulder?

I read what you said about MK... It still makes no sense why you'd choose to treat with insulin.

I'm out. Enjoy the life of a diabetic.

I hope you are out to buy hooked on phonics because your reading comprehension needs work.

What I said was "In the interim what I decided to do was give low dose metformin a shot. It already got my fasting BG back into the 90's . My plan is to try to drop that out and see how things go and make a decision from there"

I am not sure I will even need it first off. My A1C tests have come back perfect ever since I have been taking mk677 and my BG only recently spiked above 100.

BUT if I find out that mk677 is causing insulin resistance, YES I may very well decide insulin is a good plan to combat that. Between that and sleeping 9 hours per night on average which has a cascade of positive effects on my life vs going back to sleeping 2 hours per night on average which has a cascase of negative effects on my life, yeah, I'll probably pick mk677.

A persons individual values are individual to them. You are a major dick in my opinion to assume YOUR values are superior. If I had to wager I would say you are one of those liberal types too.

 

[fodsod]

Personally I think Berberine is the better long term product. Fewer sides, cheaper most of the time and doesn't require a script so you can play with your dosage without involving your GP. I use it myself on and off to help with resetting insulin sensitivity and keep BG on the lower end.

Personally, I think adding insulin in your situation isn't optimal. The potential side effects and risk out weight the benefits. You'd be better served adjusting the MK dose or finding the Berb/Met dose gets where you want to be from a BG stand point. My personal experience/progress/blood work tells me that the minimal suppression if any of IGF from Berb/Metf is negligible.

I'll use Berb in conjunction with insulin when I'm running GH/insulin pre-workout. I dose Berb in the am and then I use the insulin pre-work out. On my off days I don't use insulin and I'll run the Berb all day at 1000-1500mgs.

What dose of MK are you running, how much of an IGF increase have you noted and when do you dose it? I've experimented with MK quite a bit and find it's an excellent off season addition to GH as it drives up IGF even when you've been on GH for months straight. I'm interested in your findings since you've also been getting bloods drawn.

 

[Eman]

I hope you are out to buy hooked on phonics because your reading comprehension needs work.

What I said was "In the interim what I decided to do was give low dose metformin a shot. It already got my fasting BG back into the 90's . My plan is to try to drop that out and see how things go and make a decision from there"

I am not sure I will even need it first off. My A1C tests have come back perfect ever since I have been taking mk677 and my BG only recently spiked above 100.

BUT if I find out that mk677 is causing insulin resistance, YES I may very well decide insulin is a good plan to combat that. Between that and sleeping 9 hours per night on average which has a cascade of positive effects on my life vs going back to sleeping 2 hours per night on average which has a cascase of negative effects on my life, yeah, I'll probably pick mk677.

A persons individual values are individual to them. You are a major dick in my opinion to assume YOUR values are superior. If I had to wager I would say you are one of those liberal types too.

Hooked on phonics? What is this 1995?

If your individual values are to willingly become diabetic so you can use mk for 9hrs of sleep per night, then by all means go for it.

I bet you're one of them conservative types... Lol. My values are absolutely superior.. I don't need to give myself diabetes to justify using a GH secretagogue indefinitely.