Russia begins invasion of Ukraine

[hometeam]

Is it really that much different than us here in America?
We have citizens that need support. People who are marginalized and children who are starving.

I would say this is very similar to how our people felt during the Vietnam War draft. And it nearly tore apart our country. Muhammed Ali, Kent State, the Pentagon protest of 50,000 people, the monk who set himself on fire. John/Bobby Kennedy assassinations, Johnson not seeking another term, Nixon resigning... And the Soviet Union back then was giving the North Vietnamese surface to air missiles, Mig fighter jets, tanks, and Ak-47s. But Russia has actually had more casualties in Ukraine than we had in Vietnam and all conflicts since then combined. The difference is Russians cannot resist their regime.

The end of NATO? It's stronger than it's ever been. This new offensive Russia started is going really badly. They're certainly not marching to Kiev, have trouble even taking Bakhmut. Everyone comments about how NATO is usually much more divided than this, how they'd lost their purpose in the past. Germany is even sending tanks. Finland and Sweden are joining.

Everyone knows Russia can’t afford this war, not the treasury not the blood. The West can afford the treasury and Ukraine can afford the blood. Pro Russian people keep acting like Russia has something else up the sleeve that will change their fortunes - they don't. They lost their 1st Guards tank brigade in Kharkiv, their best equipment and best soldiers. The 200th Separate Motor Rifle Brigade and 155th Naval Infantry Brigade - gone. They're firing 1/3rd of the artillery shells they used to fire. They can mobilize a million men, but with what equipment? They could give them rifles and send human waves like they did in WWII (and somewhat in Chechnya) but the Ukrainians would chew them up with the NATO equipment.

Russia will still be around in 10 years but the state of it will be worse than the 1990s. Afghanistan to the Soviets was nothing compared to this. They will try to hide how bad things really are. What will they change? How will they become like the country 3 hours from St Petersburg where people are twice as wealthy? How many times do they have to collapse before they learn this?

 

[hometeam]

It also doesn't change who overthrew the Ukrainian government twice in 10 years because they kept electing people Washington didn't like.

Is your mind as paranoid as a KGB strongman dictator's mind is?

Daniel Fried, former National Security Council member, talks about this:

View: https://youtu.be/443WY8TTd-Q?t=3162


He says we aren't even able to do something like that in our own country yet alone a country in Eastern Europe. In Soviet times there was a famous poet, Anna Akhmatova, who would talk about their great patriotic war to standing ovation. Stalin saw this and said "who organized this applause?" To Russian/Soviet leaders who rule with an iron fist everything is forced and manipulated, there is no such thing as spontaneous or grass roots. If you're that paranoid, I hope you are mentally well.

Either way, none of Russia's concern. Not their country. The Ukrainians clearly like America and Europe much more than Russia right now.

 

[Hughinn]

Is your mind as paranoid as a KGB strongman dictator's mind is?

Daniel Fried, former National Security Council member, talks about this:

View: https://youtu.be/443WY8TTd-Q?t=3162


He says we aren't even able to do something like that in our own country yet alone a country in Eastern Europe. In Soviet times there was a famous poet, Anna Akhmatova, who would talk about their great patriotic war to standing ovation. Stalin saw this and said "who organized this applause?" To Russian/Soviet leaders who rule with an iron fist everything is forced and manipulated, there is no such thing as spontaneous or grass roots. If you're that paranoid, I hope you are mentally well.

Either way, none of Russia's concern. Not their country. The Ukrainians clearly like America and Europe much more than Russia right now.

More lies.

People in Donbass and Crimea consider themselves Russian and want to be part of Russia instead of Kyiv.

And are already fighting the Ukrainian/Washington militia or preparing to fight against it.

You act like their own wishes don't matter


View: https://twitter.com/GraphicW5/status/1630596861491806211?s=19

 

[Big_paul]

This idiot @hometeam has been parroting this bullshit lie incessantly.

He keeps saying it over and over pretending like it makes any sense despite the obvious fact that he has no evidence to support it.

He's parroting bullshit propoganda, that's it.

The fact is, nobody knows for sure who fired on those maidan protesters.

Evidence of the scene including thousands of eyewitness accounts and hundreds of injured people all point to the fact that those shots came from MAIDAN CONTROLLED BUILDINGS!!!

see here :

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/266855828_The_Snipers'_Massacre_on_the_Maidan_in_Ukraine

So if you're capable of the ridiculous mental gymnastics @hometeam is spewing, the Ukrainian police, snuck into buildings held by armed protesters and CIA organizers, made their way to the top floor and fired thousands of rounds, then crept away undetected by anybody.

And did so knowing full well it would escalate a violent uprising they had tried to calm down and get themselves condemnation from the international community and eliminate any possibility of holding on to power themselves.

Now if you believe @hometeam and that stupid bullshit, then that's your choice.


Because the only reasonable alternative is that the shots came element's inside the maidan organizers group themselves and did so to escalate a situation into violence and chaos that would give them the opportunity they needed to oust the current government and take control for themselves.

It's not hard to


No Paul, just idiot lefty's





And if you think this is some kind of fairytale bullshit storyline between a megalomaniac cartoon supervillain bent on world domination and the good guys trying to save the world, then your just as stupid as @hometeam

And the reason you don't debate against it on this, is because you know you can't.

And not because I'm smarter than you, because I'm not. But I've got facts, reason and logic tied to my position and not simply propoganda and hysteria

No my friend, I think we may very well be looking at the end of days.

I try to think how the hell we are going to get out of this, and I just cant see the light.

All I know is that this guy fucked up.

 

[Hughinn]

No my friend, I think we may very well be looking at the end of days.

I try to think how the hell we are going to get out of this, and I just cant see the light.

All I know is that this guy fucked up.

I'd like your post if I could Paul.

I don't how we get out of this either. I just know anyone believing "liberty" and "democracy" needs to be "saved" in Ukraine, is out of their fukkin mind.

Has anyone noticed Ukraine itself has imposed martial law, barred men from leaving the country, and consolidated state control of the media? Or are these considered liberty-enhancing measures now all of a sudden?

For Christ sake, Ukraine is sending crippled, old men and boys to the front lines right now because Washington will not let them negotiate for peace.

Ukraine finds stepping up mobilisation is not so easy

Military recruiters are accused of rough tactics as they try to boost the headcount

www.economist.com

It's just crazy

A goddamn phone call from Joe Biden can stop this.... All of it.

But greed and ambition is winning as we move like a trainwreck in real time.

It's fucked up

 

[Big_paul]

Crazy is a fucking understatement. Like it or not we are discussing the end of humanity.

If the Donbas and Crimea would rather be Russian, then by all means become a part of a country that will have the same future as North Korea.

It fucking breaks my heart.

 

[Hughinn]

Crazy is a fucking understatement. Like it or not we are discussing the end of humanity.

If the Donbas and Crimea would rather be Russian, then by all means become a part of a country that will have the same future as North Korea.

It fucking breaks my heart.

I'm all for the self determination of people.

I just don't believe all of humanity can be ruled by one system of government that encompasses the entire globe of wildly diverse people.

I just don't think that my friend.

Our country was founded on the ideals of individual Liberty and the responsibility associated with handling your own affairs and destiny entirely. A sort of alliance of many different separate republic's that all more or less operate independently.

We've now perverted this democracy way beyond recognition by the founders and I don't think many Americans themselves feel well represented by our own government. If any

If Blue state liberals want to be kept like cattle in citadels guarded by armed janissaries of thier respective owners....then fine by me.

But I don't want that.

I don't see how our constitution and government structure of the people was ever meant to be a globalist empire.

Let the people of the world decide how they want to live.

We still haven't figured it out yet for fucks sake

 

[hometeam]

More lies.

People in Donbass and Crimea consider themselves Russian and want to be part of Russia instead of Kyiv.

And are already fighting the Ukrainian/Washington militia or preparing to fight against it.

You act like their own wishes don't matter


View: https://twitter.com/GraphicW5/status/1630596861491806211?s=19

Well Khrushchev didn't think so, and that's exactly the argument Hitler made, right?

View: https://twitter.com/Tendar/status/1629499726230958081


His argument that we have a lot of ethnic Germans across that border you altered after WWI caused a lot of deaths in Europe just like Putin's argument is now. And afterwards, the United Nations was formed with the specific purpose of respecting sovereignty and stopping people from fighting over their borders. That's been the rules based order they've lived with in Europe ever since, and the US has been the guarantor of the order. It has facilitated a lot of peace and prosperity. If we allow Putin to get away with this, where does it end?

Putin has written a 5,000 word essay on why Ukraine isn't a real country, Lenin's mistake calling it that, how people who speak 2 languages aren't a people. He believes this is more or less a civil war and he is trying to reunite his country.

Article by Vladimir Putin ”On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians“

en.kremlin.ru

That's a real problem when these people believe they are a nation strongly enough to fight back this ferociously.

 

[Big_paul]

If you think that I think that America can't make mistakes or lie through our fucking teeth, that is not what I am saying.

 

[hometeam]

A goddamn phone call from Joe Biden can stop this.... All of it.

It's come to the point where even if Washington stopped sending arms the Ukrainians would fight with what they have for at least another year or two. And if Zelensky announced a peace deal there would be riots in Kiev.

 

[Big_paul]

Well Khrushchev didn't think so, and that's exactly the argument Hitler made, right?

View: https://twitter.com/Tendar/status/1629499726230958081


His argument caused a lot of deaths in Europe just like Putin's argument is now. And afterwards, the United Nations was formed with the specific purpose of respecting sovereignty and stopping people from fighting over their borders. That's been the rules based order they've lived with in Europe ever since, and the US has been the guarantor of the order. It has facilitated a lot of peace and prosperity. If we allow Putin to get away with this, where does it end?

Putin has written a 5,000 word essay on why Ukraine isn't a real country, Lenin's mistake calling it that, how people who speak 2 languages aren't a people. He believes this is more or less a civil war and he is trying to reunite his country.

Article by Vladimir Putin ”On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians“

en.kremlin.ru

That's a real problem when these people believe they are a nation strongly enough to fight back this ferociously.


The fallout is actually pretty similar to Korea or Vietnam. It'll last a few years, people will die, people will worry about it going nuclear, people will call it a mistake. But it will end. We had a lot of soul searching after Vietnam and they're gonna have to do the same thing. But right now their people are so angry with Ukraine and the West, fantasizing about how they're going to take down the US economy by manipulating currencies This time they invaded not the other way around, and they only have themselves to blame.

Ya know, in the Korea War once the Chinese joined in MacArthur drew up plans to drop 30 nukes on China, and he was overruled. President Truman had already dropped the bomb on Japan but he didn't want to create a world where using these things was commonplace in war. Thankfully it hasn't been used since.

I thought it was interesting listening to Yale history professor Timothy Snyder who thinks in 100 years historians will be talking about the Ukraine War and not so much about gas prices, national debts, wearing masks, corruption, democrats vs republicans:

View: https://youtu.be/um-SEQDQidM?t=100

Is the war in Russia or Ukraine?

 

[hometeam]

No my friend, I think we may very well be looking at the end of days.

I try to think how the hell we are going to get out of this, and I just cant see the light.

All I know is that this guy fucked up.

The fallout is actually pretty similar to Korea or Vietnam. It'll last a few years, people will die, people will worry about it going nuclear, people will call it a mistake. But it will end. We had a lot of soul searching after Vietnam and they're gonna have to do the same thing. But right now their people are so angry with Ukraine and the West, fantasizing about how they're going to take down the US economy by manipulating currencies This time they invaded not the other way around, and they only have themselves to blame.

Ya know, in the Korea War once the Chinese joined in MacArthur drew up plans to drop 30 nukes on China, and he was overruled. President Truman had already dropped the bomb on Japan but he didn't want to create a world where using these things was commonplace in war. Thankfully it hasn't been used since.

I thought it was interesting listening to Yale history professor Timothy Snyder who thinks in 100 years historians will be talking about the Ukraine War and not so much about gas prices, national debts, wearing masks, corruption, democrats vs republicans:

View: https://youtu.be/um-SEQDQidM?t=100

 

[Hughinn]

Well Khrushchev didn't think so, and that's exactly the argument Hitler made, right?

View: https://twitter.com/Tendar/status/1629499726230958081


His argument caused a lot of deaths in Europe just like Putin's argument is now. And afterwards, the United Nations was formed with the specific purpose of respecting sovereignty and stopping people from fighting over their borders. That's been the rules based order they've lived with in Europe ever since, and the US has been the guarantor of the order. It has facilitated a lot of peace and prosperity. If we allow Putin to get away with this, where does it end?

Putin has written a 5,000 word essay on why Ukraine isn't a real country, Lenin's mistake calling it that, how people who speak 2 languages aren't a people. He believes this is more or less a civil war and he is trying to reunite his country.

Article by Vladimir Putin ”On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians“

en.kremlin.ru

That's a real problem when these people believe they are a nation strongly enough to fight back this ferociously.


The fallout is actually pretty similar to Korea or Vietnam. It'll last a few years, people will die, people will worry about it going nuclear, people will call it a mistake. But it will end. We had a lot of soul searching after Vietnam and they're gonna have to do the same thing. But right now their people are so angry with Ukraine and the West, fantasizing about how they're going to take down the US economy by manipulating currencies This time they invaded not the other way around, and they only have themselves to blame.

Ya know, in the Korea War once the Chinese joined in MacArthur drew up plans to drop 30 nukes on China, and he was overruled. President Truman had already dropped the bomb on Japan but he didn't want to create a world where using these things was commonplace in war. Thankfully it hasn't been used since.

I thought it was interesting listening to Yale history professor Timothy Snyder who thinks in 100 years historians will be talking about the Ukraine War and not so much about gas prices, national debts, wearing masks, corruption, democrats vs republicans:

View: https://youtu.be/um-SEQDQidM?t=100

So, your solution is forcing the entire world to adopt the same type of government that has led the corporate takeover of America.
At the point of a gun or faced with starvation and conflict until they do?

You're a piece of shit.

There's no doubting that.

 

[Big_paul]

Just fucking go home and let people rebuild their lives. I think they have the entire world's attention. It should be no problem in that respect.

I don't think this is an exaggeration, the victims will not forget, and Russia has painted a very ugly picture. Say what you want of the very real mistakes the west has made in the last 30yrs.

 

[hometeam]

Is the war in Russia or Ukraine?

Putin would say "how can the war be in Ukraine if Ukraine isn't a real country?" And he makes that clear in his essay:

On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[hometeam]

So, your solution is forcing the entire world to adopt the same type of government that has led the corporate takeover of America.
At the point of a gun or faced with starvation and conflict until they do?

You're a piece of shit.

There's no doubting that.

I'm talking about forcing people to respect each other's borders, the peace and prosperity doing that brings. We haven't forced anyone in Europe to adopt democracy. They did that on their own. Yale History Professor Snyder also talks about this:

View: https://youtu.be/um-SEQDQidM?t=440

He says it was a mistake for us to think democracy in East Europe and Russia was inevitable after the collapse, that it's something you have to struggle for and we still struggle for it. He thinks our own democracy now is worse than it was in the late 1980s. Putin likes to make the argument that "look at the 2016 election interference and January 6 insurrection, Bush/Gore Supreme Court, they're no better than us so we don't need democracy." Russia has never had a leader voted out. Snyder says the lesson here is when too few people own the resources (Putin and his oligarchs) and when too few people control the media you won't have democracy.

 

[hometeam]

If the Donbas and Crimea would rather be Russian, then by all means become a part of a country that will have the same future as North Korea.

They were largely already controlled by Russia before the 2022 invasion, paying their taxes to the Donetsk People's Republic militia. Russia drove a wedge between them and Ukraine when they started recruiting and arming these rebel militias bringing war to the region. And it should be pointed out that Putin argues if you speak Russian you are Russian, but there are many people who speak Russian and consider themselves Ukrainian.

And it's not just Ukraine that Putin doesn't consider a country. He says that about Belarus too. It's just that Belarus has a dictator Putin can bully and Russia has been losing Ukraine to the West and democracy. He occupies the part of Moldova that borders Ukraine too.

It's tempting to see this as a civil war like Putin does. Putin trying to reunify his country and make right the wrongs of the past. Russia has had Ukraine under their thumb for 300 years. That's longer than the US has been a country. Putin says the only periods in that time when Ukraine was separate from Russia was due to outside interference: the Dutch, then the Germans, now the EU and America. And we do want the Russian empire to be broken up, that is in our interest, especially if they want the West as an enemy.

But it's clear these 12 former Soviet countries do not want to be part of Russia, they are better off not being Russia, that Ukraine does have a separate culture, and that a lot of Ukrainians are willing to die for their country. It might be different if Russia modernized their culture, their government, their economy. But then democratic leaders are not usually looking to annex territories either.

 

[Hughinn]

They were largely already controlled by Russia before the 2022 invasion, paying their taxes to the Donetsk People's Republic militia. Russia drove a wedge between them and Ukraine when they started recruiting and arming these rebel militias bringing war to the region. And it should be pointed out that Putin argues if you speak Russian you are Russian, but there are many people who speak Russian and consider themselves Ukrainian.

And it's not just Ukraine that Putin doesn't consider a country. He says that about Belarus too. It's just that Belarus has a dictator Putin can bully and Russia has been losing Ukraine to the West and democracy. He occupies the part of Moldova that borders Ukraine too.

It's tempting to see this as a civil war like Putin does. Putin trying to reunify his country and make right the wrongs of the past. Russia has had Ukraine under their thumb for 300 years. That's longer than the US has been a country. Putin says the only periods in that time when Ukraine was separate from Russia was due to outside interference: the Dutch, then the Germans, now the EU and America. And we do want the Russian empire to be broken up, that is in our interest, especially if they want the West as an enemy.

But it's clear these 12 former Soviet countries do not want to be part of Russia, they are better off not being Russia, that Ukraine does have a separate culture, and that a lot of Ukrainians are willing to die for their country. It might be different if Russia modernized their culture, their government, their economy. But then democratic leaders are not usually looking to annex territories either.

Lmfao


View: https://twitter.com/ArthurM40330824/status/1630375144970387456?t=QM4vQMZh-_URcJlFxHvk8A&s=19

 

[Hughinn]

I'm talking about forcing people to respect each other's borders, the peace and prosperity doing that brings. We haven't forced anyone in Europe to adopt democracy. They did that on their own. Yale History Professor Snyder also talks about this:

View: https://youtu.be/um-SEQDQidM?t=440

He says it was a mistake for us to think democracy in East Europe and Russia was inevitable after the collapse, that it's something you have to struggle for and we still struggle for it. He thinks our own democracy now is worse than it was in the late 1980s. Putin likes to make the argument that "look at the 2016 election interference and January 6 insurrection, Bush/Gore Supreme Court, they're no better than us so we don't need democracy." Russia has never had a leader voted out. Snyder says the lesson here is when too few people own the resources (Putin and his oligarchs) and when too few people control the media you won't have democracy.

Our own media is no more than Washington DC establishment propoganda with few exceptions.

If you want to fight for democracy, then start right here. In America, where we're struggling to maintain any semblance of democracy.

Instead of promoting a needless war based on greed and empire of billionaire corporate interests.

Let the self determination of others be


View: https://twitter.com/intermarium24/status/1630652938434629633?t=aENYOmIHUTEceuLsY64CBA&s=19


Bakmut has fallen and Russia will have the support of the local population.

Let the killing stop. Call for a negotiation and peace

 

[hometeam]

Our own media is no more than Washington DC establishment propoganda with few exceptions.

If you want to fight for democracy, then start right here. In America, where we're struggling to maintain any semblance of democracy.

Instead of promoting a needless war based on greed and empire of billionaire corporate interests.

Let the self determination of others be


View: https://twitter.com/intermarium24/status/1630652938434629633?t=aENYOmIHUTEceuLsY64CBA&s=19


Bakmut has fallen and Russia will have the support of the local population.

Let the killing stop. Call for a negotiation and peace

Fixing our country starts with fixing people like you - radical anti-government fanatics empowered by living in a free society who want to see our country fail just because the guy they want in power didn't win the election.

Why you would want to see Russia win is a sinister question. It might lose Biden/democrats a future election (and that's a big might) but it wouldn't be good for our country or the world. It would be bad for our country, for Europe, for the Ukrainians, and the world. With a fallen empire like Russia who isn't happy about it and a lot of countries in Europe who would rather have different borders, if Russia gets away with this it doesn't end in the Donbas.

With you it's "Biden this, Biden that, I want him to fail and I don't care if that hurts the country" it's pretty petty and there's democrats that are the same way when republicans are in power, but this is an issue where Ukraine clearly has the moral high ground and supporting them is bipartisan, affordable and good for American interests. The late John Mccain, Lindsay Graham, Mitch McConnell, and Mitt Romney all agree on this. You might disagree on aid or amount of aid but it takes a sick person to want to see Russia win.