Test and NPP (Switcheroo?)

[BlueBoy]

As I am about 8 weeks into 500mg test e and 100mg NPP with the intention of moving the NPP up a bit, I listened to a podcast yesterday speaking of the dosing ratios between the two, claiming that high nandrolone and lower test is the no-brainer. After hearing that, I dove into the online archives to find that perhaps I’m doing this backwards.

**The talking points:

Sides appear to be far less likely on high nandrolone and low test.

The ability to grow is far greater when the two are reversed.

Disclaimer: I am growing a bit and maybe we should not fix what isn’t broken. But if the alteration is significant, that would be cool too.

I’d love to hear any feedback if you’re willing to give it along with how one would make the switch to avoid negative effects.

Goal: Grow
Duration: 20 weeks

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Based off your intro. You sound pretty heavy. Have you considered dropping weight? Could help with the sides.

 

[BlueBoy]

Based off your intro. You sound pretty heavy. Have you considered dropping weight? Could help with the sides.

I’m currently doing the inverse of what is likely should be done, I realize. This move was essentially “Well, let’s do something I’ve really never done before”. In the Spring I ran eight weeks of less than 1500 calories and lost zero fat. So years of dieting down while also having a brain tumor not helping much as it relates to hormones, I’ve never really been anabolic at all. So I cut, cut, cut until moderate deficits were leaving me at 1,000 calories a day. Could I do it? Sure. But I sort of weighed out pros and cons. Keep cutting on 800-900 calories a day, further slowing shit down and feeling like a trash can…or eat, lift and (hopefully) grow.

I began reversing slowly and it has been interesting as I’d never really done it with intention. Now I’m at 2400cal a day and maintaining bodyweight.

In regards to the sides, I’m not experiencing them currently. I was more so curious about the opinions of higher NPP and lower test. And if they change is made, how to do it comfortably.

I do, however, totally acknowledge that your rationale is the way that I too would probably advise. I just couldn’t make it make sense to me to drop calories even lower, get stuck and then say “alright….now tf what?”

 

[xrayphoton13]

In the Spring I ran eight weeks of less than 1500 calories and lost zero fat.

I see no way that this is possible unless you are a small post menopausal woman.

You can grow on deca. You can grow on test. There is not one that is better than the other or a ratio between the two that is better. You build the combo and dosing that makes you the most likely to stay on it, gives the least sides, and allows you to train and eat properly while maintaining your health as best you can. You will find just as many that say high test/low deca as low test/high deca

As far as how to make the change comfortably you just make the change. I don't see a reason to slowly change the dose over time but do it the way you feel most comfortable

 

[BlueBoy]

I see no way that this is possible unless you are a small post menopausal woman.

You can grow on deca. You can grow on test. There is not one that is better than the other or a ratio between the two that is better. You build the combo and dosing that makes you the most likely to stay on it, gives the least sides, and allows you to train and eat properly while maintaining your health as best you can. You will find just as many that say high test/low deca as low test/high deca

As far as how to make the change comfortably you just make the change. I don't see a reason to slowly change the dose over time but do it the way you feel most comfortable

Thanks for the insight. I enjoy reading your stuff here. As it relates to the calorie intake, there’s no one who wished it were not true more than I. I ran a PSMF almost 10 weeks just before that where the fat loss slowed considerably toward the end which had me take a diet break for a week before dropping down again. The needle simply didn’t move at all. We’re talking 10+ years of ALWAYS dieting down and the calories just crept downward as it went. That paired with producing next to zero testosterone (so repeated hyper-low calories and poor hormone health), I was never really adding any muscle tissue.

Now that my hormones are back to snuff and reversing out, it seems to have given me some wiggle room which has been nice.

 

[sneak007]

Some people swear by the low test/hi npp although I have never tried it. I think that either way, you are guaranteed to grow. Probably 90%+ do high test with a little something added in.

 

[2ndchancesNK]

As I am about 8 weeks into 500mg test e and 100mg NPP with the intention of moving the NPP up a bit, I listened to a podcast yesterday speaking of the dosing ratios between the two, claiming that high nandrolone and lower test is the no-brainer. After hearing that, I dove into the online archives to find that perhaps I’m doing this backwards.

**The talking points:

Sides appear to be far less likely on high nandrolone and low test.

The ability to grow is far greater when the two are reversed.

Disclaimer: I am growing a bit and maybe we should not fix what isn’t broken. But if the alteration is significant, that would be cool too.

I’d love to hear any feedback if you’re willing to give it along with how one would make the switch to avoid negative effects.

Goal: Grow
Duration: 20 weeks

I agree with @xrayphoton13 on this one.

I’ve been doing some thorough research on Nandrolone as I plan to throw it in my next cycle with Test and Mast. Some people seem to have success with high test/low deca whereas for others they like the opposite.

Like mentioned previously, do what your comfortable with and gauge sides. Since you’re already at 500/100 I don’t see why you would do the switcheroo as you call it. Pick something and stick with it to see what happens. If upping the NPP becomes problematic, you at least know that for next time.

 

[BlueBoy]

I agree with @xrayphoton13 on this one.

I’ve been doing some thorough research on Nandrolone as I plan to throw it in my next cycle with Test and Mast. Some people seem to have success with high test/low deca whereas for others they like the opposite.

Like mentioned previously, do what your comfortable with and gauge sides. Since you’re already at 500/100 I don’t see why you would do the switcheroo as you call it. Pick something and stick with it to see what happens. If upping the NPP becomes problematic, you at least know that for next time.

Yeah I’ve decided to stick with it throughout this cycle and shelve the idea for later. It seems like as your test and nandrolone get close in terms of ratios, that’s when the problems start. So I likely won’t increase the NPP this go around just to keep some separation.

That separation doesn’t make a ton of sense to me nor have I seen any science around it, but it does seem to the case largely. Pretty weird stuff.

 

[4Drago]

Obesity is more of a mental illness than physical one, IMHO. You have trained your brain to believe all the lies you tell yourself. So everything I write below, you will refuse to except.
Here's some basic proven science; You cannot create nor destroy matter. Matter can be converted to energy and energy can be converted to matter... period. Your body cannot absorb calories from the air and store it as fat... lol.

What am I saying? You cannot gain fat unless you eat more calories than your body burns. One pound of fat is 3500 calories. So, you must eat 3500 calories beyond what your body burns to gain 1 pound of fat... period.

At your height its absolutely impossible to not lose weight eating only 1000 calories a day. The human body burns calories just to maintain normal body function. 1200 seems to be the minimum. Being over 200-240 lbs you are burning at least 2000-3000 calories a day just to function.

This means that just laying in bed or sitting on the couch your burning these calories.
Obese people always say I eat healthy, or low calories but I just can't lose weight... bullshit!

You need to be honest with yourself and stop the lies. Low metabolism, big boned, thyroid issues, diabetes, etc. It doesn't matter. Fat doesn't spontaneously grow on your body from the air. You eat too much! You don't stick to a healthy nutrition plan.

Don't even get me started on your excuse of low test and your choice to use gear. You have low test because your fat. Men carry body fat on their belly up front. Once you have so much fat that it can't be contained on your belly alone your hormones change. Estrogen is what tells a woman's body to distribute fat every where. So now you have low test high Estrogen so you can distribute your fat like a woman.

 

[4Drago]

If you mentally can't figure out how to eat healthy and maintain proper eating habits, you have no business using gear. You first need to deal with your brainwashed mind and lack of knowledge on nutrition.

Gear is only going to cause you 10x more damage then it would to a healthy male.

 

[4Drago]

By the way I read your intro. You are lying a lot! The sad part is you have lied so long to yourself that you believe it all. This is the brainwashing part.
See a dam nutritionist and get a healthy eating plan. Stay on it forever!! Trt through a doc only!!
I just solved all your problems. Problem is YOU will not stick to it.
Again, because you've brainwashed yourself with ignorance and lies.
This isn't impossible because I can tell, just by your writing, that you're an intelligent person.

 

[4Drago]

When you're obese and have low test of course you're going to lose muscle with fat. If you were able to get a doc to place you on trt you'd still be in the same boat.
Lose fat first. Learn proper nutrition and willpower. Of course it's gonna take a year plus to lose it. How many years did you take putting it on?
Now you're looking for that miracle pill (gear). You're probably on ozempic as well. But how are these things gonna work when you're addicted to food? You don't only eat because you're hungry, but you eat because you like it...addiction!

 

[BlueBoy]

When you're obese and have low test of course you're going to lose muscle with fat. If you were able to get a doc to place you on trt you'd still be in the same boat.
Lose fat first. Learn proper nutrition and willpower. Of course it's gonna take a year plus to lose it. How many years did you take putting it on?
Now you're looking for that miracle pill (gear). You're probably on ozempic as well. But how are these things gonna work when you're addicted to food? You don't only eat because you're hungry, but you eat because you like it...addiction!

Okay. So metabolic adaptation and brain tumors are a myth. Got it. It wasn’t until these things were addressed did I begin to see any changes. My intro and previous posts were prior to those changes taking effect. Interestingly, you act as if you’ve been with me on the day-to-day to assume you know exactly each behavior which is unfortunate and unhelpful. I get it. I’ve been on these forums for 15 years and see the same shit each day where fat people have no idea what they’re saying. However I take offense to being called a liar. Is it possible that I’m wrong? Of course, though I would debate it.

I wasn’t addicted to food when I was in a boot camp setting where every person ate the same quantity of food where I was the only person to have ever gone through it to gain weight. And I’m aware what this forum does and that you’ll respond with a fight as you’ve already assumed your way into 29 paragraphs that aren’t true.
I would have to go through this post once more to make sure I’m not misspeaking, but I don’t believe that I had spoken anything about difficulty with fat loss at this point outside of several months ago pre-medical intervention.
But if you care to know and are actually a good sport who roots for everyone, it’s all working. RMR is up, TDEE is up, calories are up. Everything is going fine.

 

[Dafty]

Fucking hell @4Drago writing bibles over this

Not saying you're wrong, just, man - triggered much?

 

[4Drago]

Fucking hell @4Drago writing bibles over this

Not saying you're wrong, just, man - triggered much?

It called hard love my friend. Obese people do kind of drive me crazy. Their excuses are all the same. They complain because people judge them in public. People judge the crack addicts on the street, of course they will judge when they see a food addiction. Being obese is like walking around with a sign saying I eat way too much all the time. But they want our sympathy because they try so hard. It's not hard to stop buying 5 cheese burgers 3 fries and 2 milkshakes at the drive thru. I can go on but you get my drift.

 

[4Drago]

Okay. So metabolic adaptation and brain tumors are a myth. Got it. It wasn’t until these things were addressed did I begin to see any changes. My intro and previous posts were prior to those changes taking effect. Interestingly, you act as if you’ve been with me on the day-to-day to assume you know exactly each behavior which is unfortunate and unhelpful. I get it. I’ve been on these forums for 15 years and see the same shit each day where fat people have no idea what they’re saying. However I take offense to being called a liar. Is it possible that I’m wrong? Of course, though I would debate it.

I wasn’t addicted to food when I was in a boot camp setting where every person ate the same quantity of food where I was the only person to have ever gone through it to gain weight. And I’m aware what this forum does and that you’ll respond with a fight as you’ve already assumed your way into 29 paragraphs that aren’t true.
I would have to go through this post once more to make sure I’m not misspeaking, but I don’t believe that I had spoken anything about difficulty with fat loss at this point outside of several months ago pre-medical intervention.
But if you care to know and are actually a good sport who roots for everyone, it’s all working. RMR is up, TDEE is up, calories are up. Everything is going fine.

First off you're on a steriod forum. You shouldn't even be using...period. You have already supported my claims. You are still lying to yourself, and you will never except what I'm telling you as truth.
Your brain tumor is very unfortunate and you have my sympathy. But being obese doesn't come from tumors it comes from eating more then you need.
You're not unique. I entered basic training at 194 lbs and left at 220 lbs... but muscle. You can't tell a veteran that over eating during basic isn't possible. Equal portions as everyone else... another LIE. You are making my point for me. Lies and more lies. And you probably believe them all.
I don't have to walk along side you day to day through your whole life to understand basic physics and biology. This is why I first made the point fat doesn't come from the thin air friend. It comes from eating too much food. You're not the special person who eats 1000 calories a day and never loses weight... sorry.
Ya, metabolic adaptation is your problem! Lets get real friend. Your problem is a mental one with a major food addiction.

 

[4Drago]

Okay. So metabolic adaptation and brain tumors are a myth. Got it. It wasn’t until these things were addressed did I begin to see any changes. My intro and previous posts were prior to those changes taking effect. Interestingly, you act as if you’ve been with me on the day-to-day to assume you know exactly each behavior which is unfortunate and unhelpful. I get it. I’ve been on these forums for 15 years and see the same shit each day where fat people have no idea what they’re saying. However I take offense to being called a liar. Is it possible that I’m wrong? Of course, though I would debate it.

I wasn’t addicted to food when I was in a boot camp setting where every person ate the same quantity of food where I was the only person to have ever gone through it to gain weight. And I’m aware what this forum does and that you’ll respond with a fight as you’ve already assumed your way into 29 paragraphs that aren’t true.
I would have to go through this post once more to make sure I’m not misspeaking, but I don’t believe that I had spoken anything about difficulty with fat loss at this point outside of several months ago pre-medical intervention.
But if you care to know and are actually a good sport who roots for everyone, it’s all working. RMR is up, TDEE is up, calories are up. Everything is going fine.

This is a harm reduction group. I want you to do a little experiment. Whenever you walk around, I want you to start looking for old obese people. You will come to notice you'll find very few of them. Why, because they die my friend, they die young.

 

[4Drago]

Okay. So metabolic adaptation and brain tumors are a myth. Got it. It wasn’t until these things were addressed did I begin to see any changes. My intro and previous posts were prior to those changes taking effect. Interestingly, you act as if you’ve been with me on the day-to-day to assume you know exactly each behavior which is unfortunate and unhelpful. I get it. I’ve been on these forums for 15 years and see the same shit each day where fat people have no idea what they’re saying. However I take offense to being called a liar. Is it possible that I’m wrong? Of course, though I would debate it.

I wasn’t addicted to food when I was in a boot camp setting where every person ate the same quantity of food where I was the only person to have ever gone through it to gain weight. And I’m aware what this forum does and that you’ll respond with a fight as you’ve already assumed your way into 29 paragraphs that aren’t true.
I would have to go through this post once more to make sure I’m not misspeaking, but I don’t believe that I had spoken anything about difficulty with fat loss at this point outside of several months ago pre-medical intervention.
But if you care to know and are actually a good sport who roots for everyone, it’s all working. RMR is up, TDEE is up, calories are up. Everything is going fine.

Your intro is so riddled with lies and excuses that it's very hard to understand and follow. Post some current pics for a TRUE reference of what you look like today at 6'3". Who knows maybe I just don't understand what the crap you're trying to say? Pics don't lie. Hide or cut your face and post a pic. Who cares. No one here is gonna know who you are in real life.
Maybe I can offer some help if I can see the truth with my own eyes. Chances are very high you won't do this. Pictures don't lie... unless it's not you. But I don't think you'd do that. It would just be counter productive.

 

[sneak007]

Lol bodybuilders get heated over obesity. I rant about it to my wife all the time

 

[rexy]