An insulin index of foods

[cvictorg]

An insulin index of foods:the insulin demand generated by 1000-kJ portions of common foods

An insulin index of foods: the insulin demand generated by 1000-kJ portions of common foods


some protein and fat-rich foods (eggs, beef, fish, lentils, cheese, cake, and doughnuts) induced as much insulin secretion as did some carbohydrate-rich foods (eg, beef was equal to brown rice and fish was equal to grain bread). As hypothesized, several foods with similar GSs had disparate ISs (eg, ice cream and yogurt, brown rice and baked beans, cake and apples, and doughnuts and brown pasta). Overall, the fiber content did not predict the magnitude of the insulin response. Similar ISs were observed for white and brown pasta, white and brown rice, and white and whole-meal bread. All of these foods are relatively refined compared with their traditional counterparts. Collectively, the findings imply that typical Western diets are likely to be significantly more insulinogenic than more traditional diets based on less refined foods.

A standard portion size of 1000 kJ was chosen because this resulted in realistic serving sizes for most of the foods except apples, oranges, fish, and potatoes. Although some of the protein-rich foods may normally be eaten in smaller quantities, fish, beef, cheese, and eggs still had larger insulin responses per gram than did many of the foods consisting predominantly of carbohydrate. As observed in previous studies, consumption of protein or fat with carbohydrate increases insulin secretion compared with the insulinogenic effect of these nutrients alone.

So - should we separate the protein consumption from the carbohydrates - i.e., a protein meal followed by a carbohydrate meal.

 

[zkt]

This seems contrary to what I thought I know. Namely that fat slows down the digestion , absorption and insulin response to simple carbs. But I havent read the study yet. Get back as soon as I can read it.
What about that holy basil? Got any time and interest in researching it ?

 

[LW64]

Looking at insulin release alone doesnt tell the whole story. It's the protein that sets off an insulin response when fat and protein are eaten. But, with protein there is an equal and opposite glucagon release that mitigates insulin's effects. Glucagon is insulin's opposing hormone.

Eat lots of carbs with just a little protein and your insulin will go very high with almost no glucagon release; it's a combination that is worse than carbs alone if you're trying to keep your insulin level down.

 

[cvictorg]

Looking at insulin release alone doesnt tell the whole story. It's the protein that sets off an insulin response when fat and protein are eaten. But, with protein there is an equal and opposite glucagon release that mitigates insulin's effects. Glucagon is insulin's opposing hormone.

Eat lots of carbs with just a little protein and your insulin will go very high with almost no glucagon release; it's a combination that is worse than carbs alone if you're trying to keep your insulin level down.

So carbs MUST be eaten with sufficient protein to keep the insulin response down?

Can you define sufficient protein per meal?

 

[zkt]

This is an interesting, complicated and detailed study. It`ll need more that a cursory read to determine what the story is or even if there is one.
The baked bean response seems all out of whack until ya realize that baked beans are loaded with sugar. Dont think they mentioned that.

 

[GirlyMan]

Looking at insulin release alone doesnt tell the whole story. It's the protein that sets off an insulin response when fat and protein are eaten. But, with protein there is an equal and opposite glucagon release that mitigates insulin's effects. Glucagon is insulin's opposing hormone.

Eat lots of carbs with just a little protein and your insulin will go very high with almost no glucagon release; it's a combination that is worse than carbs alone if you're trying to keep your insulin level down.

Alright, now help me work this into actionable intelligence for the low glycemic index diet I've been following for the last 3 years to ward off the diabetes train.

 

[LW64]

So carbs MUST be eaten with sufficient protein to keep the insulin response down?

Yes. In terms of minimizing the insulin response, high protein and low carb is much preferable to high carb and low protein. Better still, however, is protein and fat with no carbs where the insulin and glucagon release will be the same. Of course, best is all fat where there is no insulin response at all but it isnt necessary to go that far with it.

If you're eating a pastoral diet, it's just about impossible to get your proportions of fat and protein out of whack and the carbs will be there but at a minimal level. So, no worries!

Can you define sufficient protein per meal?

Dr. Eades "Protein Power" describes a typical DAILY range of 0.5 grams per pound of lean body mass for sedentary persons to 0.9 grams per pound LBM for athletic persons.

 

[LW64]

Alright, now help me work this into my low glycemic index diet I've been following for the last 3 years to ward off the diabetes train.

[1] Favor healthy fats,
[2] Get adequate protein, and
[3] Keep carbs at a relatively constant AND low level every day.
[4] Do you eat wheat? If so, then stop.

 

[GirlyMan]

[1] Favor healthy fats,
[2] Get adequate protein, and
[3] Keep carbs at a relatively constant AND low level every day.

Got it, live it.

[4] Do you eat wheat? If so, then stop.

Even if I've found wheat products which don't spike my postprandial sugars?

 

[LW64]

Got it, live it.

Take a look at "Dr. Bernsteins Diabetes Solution" if/when you get a chance for all kinds of details. I'm not diabetic but I eat a pastoral diet for general health reasons and I believe I'm not very far off from what that book recommends.

Even if I've found wheat products which don't spike my postprandial sugars?

Yes. There's more to grains than their carb content that makes them a potential problem. One in particular is that they contain proteins that can behave like insulin! [I have a pubmed citation for this that I'll post when I find it!]

Other, related issues are described here:

http://thehealthyskeptic.org/9-steps-to-perfect-health-1-dont-eat-toxins

"Because plants like cereal grains are always competing against predators (like us) for survival. Unlike animals, plants can’t run away from us when we decide to eat them. They had to evolve other mechanisms for protecting themselves. These include:

producing toxins that damage the lining of the gut;

producing toxins that bind essential minerals, making them unavailable to the body; and,

producing toxins that inhibit digestion and absorption of other essential nutrients, including protein.

One of these toxic compounds is the protein gluten, which is present in wheat and many of the other most commonly eaten cereal grains. In short, gluten damages the intestine and makes it leaky. And researchers now believe that a leaky gut is one of the major predisposing factors for conditions like obesity, diabetes and autoimmune disease."

 

[GirlyMan]

Take a look at "Dr. Bernsteins Diabetes Solution" if/when you get a chance for all kinds of details. I'm not diabetic but I eat a pastoral diet for general health reasons and I believe I'm not very far off from what that book recommends.

Yup, did that at time of diagnosis. Fucker wants me to keep my A1C below 5.0% and my fasting glucose below 90 mg/dl. Not gonna happen without insulin injections.

http://thehealthyskeptic.org/9-steps-to-perfect-health-1-dont-eat-toxins

... One of these toxic compounds is the protein gluten, ,,,

I'm skeptical of this.

 

[zkt]

I just gave the study a quick read. It looked to me like there was contradictory data to what we understand. Did you read it thouroughly enough to determine that the results are consistant ?

 

[LW64]

Yup, did that at time of diagnosis. Fucker wants me to keep my A1C below 5.0% and my fasting glucose below 90 mg/dl. Not gonna happen without insulin injections.

Once you eat this way, your FBG will be one of the last things to respond. It takes some patience. I started this in October '09 with a FBG of 109 and now I'm at 91

I'm skeptical of this.

Archevore - Archevore Blog - Avoid Poison or Neutralize?It?

"I suggest wheat advocates who worship tradition pay for access to this short report published in GUT – I did - and then explain why a celiac, or indeed anyone with a gut should expose themselves to even microgram amounts of incompletely hydrolysed gluten when 5 out of 6 people without evidence of CS (Celiac Sprue) have evidence of an abnormal innate immune response using a highly sensitive assay.'

http://gut.bmj.com/content/56/6/889.extract




And there's more to it than the gluten...

Lectins
The Lowdown On Lectins | Mark's Daily Apple

There's more on phytates and anti-nutrients that I'll come back to when I have more time to post.

 

[GirlyMan]

Once you eat this way, your FBG will be one of the last things to respond. It takes some patience. I started this in October '09 with a FBG of 109 and now I'm at 91

I did eat that way for 9 months to a year after diagnosis. It, along with the metformin, did bring my A1C down from 5.8% to 5.5% (where it remains) but it only brought my FBG down from 115 to 105-110 (where it remains). Just figured it was gluconeogenesis and the Dawn Phenomenon and it ain't gonna go any lower. You're suggesting I didn't run it long enough. Why would FBG be one of the last indicators to respond?

Archevore - Archevore Blog - Avoid Poison or Neutralize?It?
Is gliadin really safe for non-coeliac individuals? Production of interleukin 15 in biopsy culture from non-coeliac individuals challenged with gliadin peptides -- Bernardo et al. 56 (6): 889 -- Gut
The Lowdown On Lectins | Mark's Daily Apple

Shit. Homework.

 

[cvictorg]

Is gliadin really safe for non?coeliac individuals? Production of interleukin 15 in biopsy culture from non?coeliac individuals challenged with gliadin peptides

The data obtained in this pilot study support the hypothesis that gluten elicits its harmful effect, throughout an IL15 innate immune response, on all the individuals. This innate response is found in both patients with and without CD, although the triggering of an adaptive response is CD specific. We propose that somehow patients with CD need to be DQ2 and also have a lower threshold for triggering an adaptive TH1 response. This lower threshold could be mediated by the higher basal levels of immune mediators, like IFN? mRNA, found in patients with CD, a defect in the CD permeability or even a higher IL15?sensitive response under the same stimulus, which might be mediated by a higher density of IL15 receptor in patients with CD.

The Paleo Diet: Type 2 Diabetes and Endotoxemia

In summary, antinutrients introduced with the agricultural revolution 10,000 years ago may be one of the causal factors in the epidemic of obesity, (as well as T2D) in Western countries. Lectins, saponins and gliadin increase intestinal permeability and allow increased passage of gut bacteria from intestinal lumen to peripheral circulation. LPS - an antigen found in gram-negative bacteria cell membranes - interacts with TLR-4, leading to inflammatory cytokine production and low-grade chronic inflammation, which is at the root of insulin resistance. Insulin resistance is recognised to induce the metabolic syndrome, including T2D. Endotoxemia-induced insulin resistance in T2D patients may be exacerbated, in part, by antinutrients.

http://www.sayerji.com/published-writings/4

In this article we have proposed that celiac disease be viewed not as a rare “genetically determined”disorder, but as an extreme example of our body communicating to us a once universal, species-specific affliction: severe intolerance to wheat. Celiac disease reflects back to us how profoundly our diet has diverged from what was until only recently a grain free diet, and even more recently, a wheat free one. We are so profoundly distanced from that dramatic Neolithic transition in cultural time that “missing is any sense that anything is missing.” The body on the other hand can not help but to remember a time when cereal grains were alien to the diet, because in biological time it was only moments ago.

Bowel Disease, Part II: Healing the Gut By Eliminating Food Toxins | Perfect Health Diet

 

[LW64]

Just figured it was gluconeogenesis and the Dawn Phenomenon and it ain't gonna go any lower. You're suggesting I didn't run it long enough. Why would FBG be one of the last indicators to respond?

Or you were eating too much protein and not enough fat to sufficiently slow gluconeogenesis. The liver can initally rev up GNG once you start reducing your carb intake so when you eat this way it can take a while for your metabolism and the various organs to adjust to less exogenous sugar while also relying more on fat instead of endogenous glucose. For example, the sugar requirements for the brain will eventually decrease as there will be more ketone bodies for it to use (quite happily) as fuel. The more fat you eat, the faster it all happens.

What kinds of changes did you see in your lipid panel before and after you adopted that way of eating?

And, to be fair, I will not rule out the possibility that it just didnt work for you.

 

[GirlyMan]

Or you were eating too much protein and not enough fat to sufficiently slow gluconeogenesis.

That's what I did. During that period it was pretty much fish and poultry. Bulk of the fat I got was from my daily 6-10g of fish oil supplements.

Goddam LW I think I am starting to almost understand your statement in the ketosis thread, "The lesson to be learned from this is that if you're going low-carb, you need to pretty much go face-down into the animal fat right away and go easy on the protein."

Thanks brother!

What kinds of changes did you see in your lipid panel before and after you adopted that way of eating?

Irrelevant because I'm a hyperresponder to statins. My total cholesterol went from 220 mg/dl with triglycerides at 350 to 100 mg/dl with an HDL of 70 on 40 mg simvastatin. There is little doubt in my mind (or my Doc's ) that the statin and the metformin is why I'm on Androgel. I thank them for that.

I'm gonna give it another run facedown in fat.

Thanks again!

 

[zkt]

That's what I did. During that period it was pretty much fish and poultry. Bulk of the fat I got was from my daily 6-10g of fish oil supplements.

Goddam LW I think I am starting to almost understand your statement in the ketosis thread, "The lesson to be learned from this is that if you're going low-carb, you need to pretty much go face-down into the animal fat right away and go easy on the protein."

Thanks brother!



Irrelevant because I'm a hyperresponder to statins. My total cholesterol went from 220 mg/dl with triglycerides at 350 to 100 mg/dl with an HDL of 70 on 40 mg simvastatin. There is little doubt in my mind (or my Doc's ) that the statin and the metformin is why I'm on Androgel. I thank them for that.

I'm gonna give it another run facedown in fat.

Thanks again!

ALLRITE ! Another convert !:drooling:
LW knows his shit brother. He is the main force behind my rejecting the Ornish diet and going Paleo. I`ll copy my thread chronicalling my conversion to the N forum. Lots of good info in it. Let me add that upping the olive oil wont do anything worse for you than raising your HDL.

 

[ergomaniac]

An insulin index of foods:the insulin demand generated by 1000-kJ portions of common foods

An insulin index of foods: the insulin demand generated by 1000-kJ portions of common foods


some protein and fat-rich foods (eggs, beef, fish, lentils, cheese, cake, and doughnuts) induced as much insulin secretion as did some carbohydrate-rich foods (eg, beef was equal to brown rice and fish was equal to grain bread). As hypothesized, several foods with similar GSs had disparate ISs (eg, ice cream and yogurt, brown rice and baked beans, cake and apples, and doughnuts and brown pasta). Overall, the fiber content did not predict the magnitude of the insulin response. Similar ISs were observed for white and brown pasta, white and brown rice, and white and whole-meal bread. All of these foods are relatively refined compared with their traditional counterparts. Collectively, the findings imply that typical Western diets are likely to be significantly more insulinogenic than more traditional diets based on less refined foods.

A standard portion size of 1000 kJ was chosen because this resulted in realistic serving sizes for most of the foods except apples, oranges, fish, and potatoes. Although some of the protein-rich foods may normally be eaten in smaller quantities, fish, beef, cheese, and eggs still had larger insulin responses per gram than did many of the foods consisting predominantly of carbohydrate. As observed in previous studies, consumption of protein or fat with carbohydrate increases insulin secretion compared with the insulinogenic effect of these nutrients alone.

So - should we separate the protein consumption from the carbohydrates - i.e., a protein meal followed by a carbohydrate meal.

if i may. i cant see the original link to this. but as far as fat loss it may be relevant. insulin inhibits fat loss. to a certain degree. a different stategy for fat reduction? so do beef, fish, and egg prevent fat loss? lentils are out? should i be worried. or to what degree. whey elicits an insulin response. cococnut oil too. is insulin bad. jacked up all day. maybe. but it does serve a purpose. unless you have problems.
this also reminds me of the glycemic index. if no one has commented on this. high fructose foods dont register high on the glycemic index because there not high in glucose. duh. but they do raise insulin.
seperating protein and carbohydrate meals. probably not. protien carbs and fat. most notably high fiber carbs. vegatables. all three should act together and balance each other out. or so is my opinion. if this redundant. so sorry. wondering just the same.

 

[LW64]

That's what I did. During that period it was pretty much fish and poultry. Bulk of the fat I got was from my daily 6-10g of fish oil supplements.

Goddam LW I think I am starting to almost understand your statement in the ketosis thread, "The lesson to be learned from this is that if you're going low-carb, you need to pretty much go face-down into the animal fat right away and go easy on the protein."

Thanks brother!

You're welcome!

Thats way too much fish oil and you were getting a fat (PUFA) that you want to limit on this diet to something around 4% or less of your total calories.

This diet is NOT like any other diet! In this diet FAT is your best friend and by FAT I mean SATURATED and MONOUNSATURATED. You have to IGNORE the conventional dietary advice ("backed up" by total horseshit science) that made saturated fat the bad guy for the last 40 years. Forget about chicken breast or if you're going to eat them, cook them in bacon drippings. If you eat fish, cook it in butter. Use butter (hot or room temp) and olive oil (room temp) every chance you get. Eat adequate protein, HIGH fat, and LOW carb. Bernstein recommends 6 (breakfast) + 12 (lunch) + 12 (dinner) for a daily total of 30 gm carbs and thats a good target. Start at something like 75 gm/day and work down. You do not need to be in ketosis for this to work and at an average of 40 to 60 gm carbs per day, you wont be. At 30, you should be just above it with all the advantages and none of the issues. YMMV. Once you do this for a whiile, you'll have a better feel for what a good daily level is to maintain your health.

Irrelevant because I'm a hyperresponder to statins. My total cholesterol went from 220 mg/dl with triglycerides at 350 to 100 mg/dl with an HDL of 70 on 40 mg simvastatin. There is little doubt in my mind (or my Doc's ) that the statin and the metformin is why I'm on Androgel. I thank them for that.

The reason I asked is because if you eat this way and your TRIGS drop below 100 (mine are 62),without any drugs that can alter the reading, then its a clear sign you're doing this right.

I'm gonna give it another run facedown in fat.

Thanks again!

Excellent! I'll give you all the help you need.